Brother Gathurn Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Hello all. In my local shop were currently running a campaign and I ahve been attacked by the eldar. I honestly only very rarely play them and generally loose. Our only Eldar player is very good so I was hoping for some advice. He runs a farseer as his HQ, a unit of fire dragons in a transport (want to say a falcon), a large unit of harlequins, dire avengers, dark reapers, and lots of strikign scorpions. Here's the catch. Since it's a campaign we have some special units. Some of them may have a USR earned from pervious battles, and his striking scorpions are scoring thanks to his commander. I have a captain with honor of the chapter from the chapter champion, an assault squad with counter attack, and a tactical squad with infiltrate. However thanks to an earlier victory I also have two "experience points" to spend. These can modify my commander, or list/unit options. I'm looking for advice on a couple things in particular. Countering striking scorpions, countering fire dragons, what all a farseer can do, and advice on how to use my "special" units. The two experience points will be used to allow rhino's and razorbacks to buy assault vehicle. I'd be happy to hear some suggestions for point cost on that, but that obviously has to stay a side note. Thanks a bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 So, here's the long answer: Grey Mage will tell you everything you need to know about killing Eldar. And here's a very short answer: Each eldar unit is super-broken at one aspect of play. Dark Reapers are ludicrous at medium ranged shooting; Fire Dragons are awesome at close range shooting; Banshees are nightmares in CC; etc. A savvy Eldar player will do everything in his or her power to pit each of their units against the elements in your army that they will excel against. For instance, they'll try dump their Fire Dragons and Banshees near your LR to open it up and tackle what's inside...or use Warp Spiders to quickly hop around the back of your force to chew up your Dev squads or objective campers. What works best for an Eldar player is a Space Marine player being spread out. The more spread out you are, the better they have it. Castle up. Be the porcupine. Your force is either a large, single detachment...or it's split into two, equal strength detachments (that aren't that far apart from one another). Reason being is that you need your units in positions where they can quickly reposition to support one another against the specialist Eldar units that are specialized in killing them. Stick a Dread or assault team with that Dev squad. Jump teams are great for this as they can reposition quickly (and if an Eldar unit is not specialized at melee, it sucks at it) and offer support. More than a few Eldar units have 5+ saves; your flamers will make short work of them. Good luck. And digest that thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Dakka their Choppa and Choppa their Dakka. And take every opportunity to slow them down. Thunderfire Cannon helps to keep those fast skimmers from zipping all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Gathurn Posted September 5, 2011 Author Share Posted September 5, 2011 How's their long range shooting? Thunderfires are great. But if anything hits them, the odds are not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Against both Eldar factions, long range shooting is very important. Range can be an equivalent to speed. Eldar are speedy. Say you have a Vulkan lead melta and flamer heavy list. This does not bother the Eldar player too much, because such short reached weapons allow him to strike first. If the Eldar strike first and kill your unit first, it doesn't matter how super-killy your unit is was, if you catch my drift? Having reach allows you to strike first and stops him from freely massing at a point before launching an overwhelming attack on you. Remember to stay meched up. Banshees and Reapers absolutely flog Marines. When the Marines are still in their humble Rhino, they are all but immune to these two units. That means you need to silence his AT guns before he opens up your transports. A Librarian will do much to shut down his spells, and then can Nullzone the Farseer and Warlock retinue. This unit is one of the few tough units in the Eldar book, so having a counter to that is a good thing. Wraithlords can also be a bit of a monkey to deal with, so have some high strength ap3 weapons, otherwise you'll be getting nowhere quickly with them. Good luck :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 If you do bring a Librarian, realize he's really only along for his Hood. Most Farseers will take really annoying Wargear that will make you take your psychic tests on three dice and Perils on any total over 11. (Not saying don't bring him, just be aware. My Librarian doesn't mind it too much with his storm shield...but he still fails a lot of tests. :rolleyes: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 How's their long range shooting? Thunderfires are great. But if anything hits them, the odds are not good. Most of their heavy firepower is range 36" But they are fast, so they can close to range quite quickly with most of their platforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Gathurn Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 Hm, maybe leave out the thunderfire cannon then. Definitively sterngaurd, assault marines, and landspeeders though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Grey Mage's breakdown thread is a solid start, but the thing I'm still looking for is a way to actually beat a Mechdar army run by a non-new player. The profusion of Falcons and Wave Serpents with Holofields and Energy Fields gets annoying real fast, doubly so with Eldrad flinging Fortune on two units a turn, and another Farseer adding a third casting. Move flat out with the three with Fortune for rerollable 4+ saves, and then move all the other ones behind those for yet more 4+ saves. If something does manage to get through, you roll two dice and take the lowest, so unless you're rolling 4-6 in each batch, it's taking you the whole game to take down all the damned tanks. The infantry models never even get out of the transports! Immobilized a Falcon near an objective? That's fine, because the unit inside scores and it keeps forcing you to roll those two dice and take the lowest. Over and over and over. Eldar are the one army I've never had a decisive victory over. Minor wins and draws are all I ever manage, because the only build I've ever faced is Mechdar, with or without a Flying Circus Seer Council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Grey Mage's breakdown thread is a solid start, but the thing I'm still looking for is a way to actually beat a Mechdar army run by a non-new player. The profusion of Falcons and Wave Serpents with Holofields and Energy Fields gets annoying real fast, doubly so with Eldrad flinging Fortune on two units a turn, and another Farseer adding a third casting. Move flat out with the three with Fortune for rerollable 4+ saves, and then move all the other ones behind those for yet more 4+ saves. If something does manage to get through, you roll two dice and take the lowest, so unless you're rolling 4-6 in each batch, it's taking you the whole game to take down all the damned tanks. The infantry models never even get out of the transports! Immobilized a Falcon near an objective? That's fine, because the unit inside scores and it keeps forcing you to roll those two dice and take the lowest. Over and over and over. Eldar are the one army I've never had a decisive victory over. Minor wins and draws are all I ever manage, because the only build I've ever faced is Mechdar, with or without a Flying Circus Seer Council. Well, despite the dissent from a few, namely Grey Mage himself :lol: , the list you are describing is the pinnacle of the book over years of selection, according to most competitive players. If the build isn't giving you a very hard time, then the Celdar might as well play count-as already :teehee: If you post your usual list, and the Celdar one, that might help us zero in on whatever potential things could do with tightening up. But otherwise, it is a solid list and is being run by a solid opponent.... *shrugs* +++ If you take a Librarian, for the 4+ dispel, then your battle is made easier. If you give him Nullzone, then if you do get it off, again you are really undoing a key strength for him. Don't bother with any other ICs. The Eldar has nothing that merits a Captain with Relic blade, and the one thing you'll be throwing him against, has ++ saves galore. You really need, imo, a plethora of 48" range guns. Auto cannons and Missile launchers, in preference to the Las cannon, due to strength being dropped to 8. Heavy flamers can be especially cruel on Eldar. Wounding on 2s, ignoring cover and the saves of most of the Aspect Warriors :yes: Plasma is generally of little use against them, unless they are going Wraith heavy. But that is what the MLs are for ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 While yes- Wilhelm is right- I think that people who play exclusively mechdar are ignoring alot of sound tactical options, I recognize the common problems of it and heres your answer: Your right. Itll take alot of firepower to down each and every one of those stinking tanks. Theyre going to have spiritstones, so stunlocking them only goes so far. What you need is to stun the ones with the guns and focus fire the ones with the squads. IE- if you get a single glancing hit on a fire prism, its done for the turn. And thus, your job in killing it can wait while you take down waveserpents, and possibly falcons. Depending on what stage of the game it is will tell you whats more important, though some cargos are always vitally important to the eldar player. Is Eldrad on the field? Take his wheels as a top priority. Yes, its going to be an outright pain in the arse if you dont have an incredibly mobile CC unit capable of taking out vehicles- something that is somewhat lacking on C:SM, though a Thunder Priest or the like can do great in C:SW- wich means youll need to focus fire on it, alot of fire and/or get lucky. Otherwise, early on hes going to be trying to target your long range fire and your transports. Depending on the kind of list you play, youll want to focus fire on his Fire Prisms or any waveserpent with Bright Lances or Missile Launchers. The prisms are open to hits from lascannons at full strength- like the falcons too- so put those where they are most effective and keep the str 8 for where its needed- killing waveserpents. The Seer council is alot easier to stop. Just get it in CC with a FNP squad- like a command squad or almost any BA perhaps, and theyll spend four full turns trying to extricate themselves. Sure, you want kill them- but if the council is large your unit might not even be assaultable, and if its not large you have a better chance at killing it. Be sure to target the farseer with everything you have though, as his fortune ability is the key to their durability. Putting them on bikes adds to their speed, so a squad of vangaurd to catch them unawares or a biker command squad of your own is likely the best options for C:SM. Can you tell me more about your normal build? What do you have for options? How strict is your local tournaments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 While yes- Wilhelm is right- I think that people who play exclusively mechdar are ignoring alot of sound tactical options, I recognize the common problems of it and heres your answer: Hahaa! I knew my nose was tingling! Grey Mage, you're back! *does dance* Where have you been?!!!11!!!one!!!eleventy!!!!111! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Between the schooling, the moving, and the new roommates it took a bit to get internet access going again. Good to see you too Marshal, I hope youve been keeping people on the winning track for me eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Thanks for the tips! I almost always run a bike-heavy list. Bike Captain with relic blade, artificer armor, and digitals. Bike Command Squad with a variety of gear. Three 6-man Bike Squads (one plasma, one melta, one flamer). A pair of squadroned Typhoons. A pair of squadroned MM attack bikes. Beyond those units, I take whatever strikes my fancy in a given month. Sometimes it's Terminators, others it's a Thunderfire and Whirlwinds, and others it's Dreadnoughts. Additional HQs depend on what else I field. This month I went with no extra HQs, and two Dev squads in Razorbacks (one with 4 missiles, one with 4 heavy bolters). I took a minor loss against Mechdar due to the sheer number of shots it required to down those damned tanks, and a screwup on mypart that saw most of my Command Squad die Turn One (poor deployment led to Eldar tanks moving 12" to redraw LOS with Pulse Laser shots. I've only ever faced Mechdar ONCE without Eldrad, and was running Bikes N Bombs that week (bike core, double Whirlwind, Thunderfire, two Dreads, Master of the Forge with Beamer). The real trick is making an all-comers list for my local area that can still put down skimmer tanks. We have a lot of gribbly hordes around here (Daemons up the wah-zoo), alongside mechanized MEQ forces. Lean too far in one direction and you fall off the cliff. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drunk Guardian Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks for the tips! I almost always run a bike-heavy list. Bike Captain with relic blade, artificer armor, and digitals. Bike Command Squad with a variety of gear. Three 6-man Bike Squads (one plasma, one melta, one flamer). A pair of squadroned Typhoons. A pair of squadroned MM attack bikes. Beyond those units, I take whatever strikes my fancy in a given month. Sometimes it's Terminators, others it's a Thunderfire and Whirlwinds, and others it's Dreadnoughts. Additional HQs depend on what else I field. This month I went with no extra HQs, and two Dev squads in Razorbacks (one with 4 missiles, one with 4 heavy bolters). I took a minor loss against Mechdar due to the sheer number of shots it required to down those damned tanks, and a screwup on mypart that saw most of my Command Squad die Turn One (poor deployment led to Eldar tanks moving 12" to redraw LOS with Pulse Laser shots. I've only ever faced Mechdar ONCE without Eldrad, and was running Bikes N Bombs that week (bike core, double Whirlwind, Thunderfire, two Dreads, Master of the Forge with Beamer). The real trick is making an all-comers list for my local area that can still put down skimmer tanks. We have a lot of gribbly hordes around here (Daemons up the wah-zoo), alongside mechanized MEQ forces. Lean too far in one direction and you fall off the cliff. :) I don't know if it's always worth it to try to down Eldar tanks - it seems like its a lot of effort that Space Marines perhaps are not really adequately equipped to deal with without selling out on the rest of the list. Depending on what the Eldar player is fielding, use your ranged firepower to destroy / disable his support units instead of the tanks, and setup for a counter attack when the tanks reach you. The Wave Serpents can be configured to do some damage, but I find its what inside of the Serpents thats usually even scarier... if I see my opponent is fielding War Walkers, Wraith Lords, Fire Prisms, etc I'll try to knock those out while the Serpents close and have my infantry / tanks in a position to return fire after the disembarking Eldar player makes his move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Around here, there are no non-tank units in Mechdar lists beyond the Seer Council on jetbikes. You have to drop a tank to have anything for your weapons with S<6 to have something to shoot at. In a KP game, you have to start cracking tanks to earn any points, as the Eldar player will just do the shuffle and pick off your small/weak/easy targets for a few KP and then retreat. In objective games, they just ram or tank shock in turn 5 to contest the objectives you hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Between the schooling, the moving, and the new roommates it took a bit to get internet access going again. Good to see you too Marshal, I hope youve been keeping people on the winning track for me eh? Sounds like you've been a busy man :P Yeah, moving is one of the more traumatic things in life, so you have my sympathy on that one. I like to think I am keeping people on the winning track, but who knows? :( +++ I think long range weapons are crucial for keeping Marines [who are a medium Speed faction, overall] in the game against the more mobile factions [Eldar, Blood Angels and Tau] I am not sure how I would go in chasing around Eldar AV with Bikes.... Moar firepowa! Rifledreads and Missile Devs seem a safe way of getting that LRAT [long range anti tank] into a Marine list. I wouldn't especially pick Preds for a list against Eldar, as the sideAV gets exposed by them whizzing from here to there. The Dread is safer, and points you've paid for its guns are not wasted by Shields, as a s9 Las cannon does when dropped to s8. Boo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I think actually chasing them might just be your best bet. Few mechdar lists take star engines- the souped-up bits that let you move 12' father in the shooting phase- wich means a turboboosting bike not only has the same speed as their skimmers but also means they have a better save vs. brightlances and starcannons etc. Chase them down like wolves bringing down a bull elk, nip at their heels when you can and above all dont let up the pressure for a moment. Once your behind a waverserpent hit it with your meltas, heck block the rear access if you can.... It makes for a longer game, but theres no reason you cant wear them down. The problem with mechdar lists is they have a despicably low wound count... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I think actually chasing them might just be your best bet. I always worry about chasing down Eldar elements as they are faster than my fastest units and - due to force field shenanigans - more durable. Worst case by chasing them I'm playing into their hands (or so I would fear) allowing myself to be Pincer attacked or spread out if I push too far. GM knows better than I, for sure, but if you are going to chase remember to stick to the basics: i.e. keep your marines as together as you can so he can't pick off any stragglers without facing the brunt of your entire pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I only recommend it because hes an experienced player with a C:SM bike list. Wich means hell know to shake down any prism/nightspinners on the field and have the speed to keep up with the transports without issue. Possible problems? Star Engines and an incredibly large board and/or excessive terrain that he can hop wich bikes cannot. In wich case it becomes more of a game of cat and mouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdOfEntity Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 While yes- Wilhelm is right- I think that people who play exclusively mechdar are ignoring alot of sound tactical options, I recognize the common problems of it and heres your answer: I would also like to point out it's about as fun as doing my taxes. ;) Grey's advice on how to deal with Eldar is pretty spot on, but don't count on the engines not being upgraged. If the points are available, or the player knows you prefer fast vehicles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Agreed- though I find very few lists, or atleast posted/in my area lists for tournaments seem to take them. One-offs is a whole different ballgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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