How to Handle Horde

[Chronicle77]

Earlier this week, I used my DoA list against my friend that plays Orcs. He fielded a Knob squad (all differently equipped), and a boyz squad upgraded with a knob with a power weapon. I threw everything I had at him, and his Knob squad laughed at me. (This was partially bad dice rolls, but he still would have won handily.) I managed to tie, but that was only because of my mobility. I felt like I was playing Eldar, which is a feeling I never want again. From experience and what I have read, hand flamers seem to be overpriced for their use. So my question is this: what have others done with a DoA list to counter mass horde that are very melee oriented?

 

For Reference, here is the build I use:

 

HQ- Librarian w/ JP and (Shield,Rage)

Assault Squadx10 w/ 2 meltas

 

Librarian w/ JP (Shield,Rage)

Assault Squad x10 w/ 2 meltas

 

Sanguinary Priest w/ JP

Assault Squad x10 w/ 2 meltas

 

Sanguinary Priest w/ JP

Assault Squad x10 w/ 2 meltas

 

Honor Guard w/ JP w/ Blood Champion

[Bradley Powers]

Death Company (no JPs) and Lemartes

 

Will *slaughter* hordes.

 

I usually run 10.

[SamaNagol]

DoA will never do well against hordes lists. Ever.

[Chronicle77]

That's what I was afraid of...

[Brother_Byhlli]

That's complete nonsense. So long as you allow your opponent to dictate the terms of engagement, you're pretty much giving up on the battle.

 

You're a small, compact elite force. You can bring the entirety of your army to bear on a half or a quarter of your opponent's army.

 

Don't rush headlong into a combat you're going to get stomped in. Focus on one or two of his units with absolutely everything you've got. Nobz are going to be tricky to take down, but that doesn't make it impossible. You have first strike if you charge (and if you don't charge, you're doing something wrong), you've got the strength to do damage.

 

Don't think that one of your units can match up against one of his units. Throw EVERYTHING at one or two of his units. Use his units as impassable terrain for the rest of his army - attack a large unit at the side opposite his other units, kill his unit off and consolidate AWAY from your opponent. You want to dance in and out of combat, using your mobility and the compactness of your army to stay away from combats that are weighed against you and only engaging in fights that you can weight heavily in your favour.

 

Orks are one of my main opponents and I have never lost against them, regardless of what army I'm playing. Every game I've played against them with jump infantry Blood Angels I've annihilated them.

[Sokhar]

You don't give your Assault Sergeants power fists? Do so, you'll have a much easier time killing stuff, and they'll splatter Nobz.

 

If you want extra Nob-killing power, use Sanguine Sword instead of Unleash Rage. UR only gives a standard Assault Squad an extra three wounds or so (approximately). Strength 10 means every hit that doesn't roll a 1 to wound will insta-kill a Nob. And at initiative, instead of at the end like a power fist. With Orks you shouldn't have to worry about wound shennannigans due to their numbers.

 

If you want to tailor to go against Orks you could also swap one squad's meltaguns for flamers. They'll kill Orks nicely.

 

Your Honor Guard squad has a whopping one upgrade (Blood Champion). Waste of points if they're not mounting some decent weapons. The only thing they're really doing is providing another FNP/FC bubble, which you can do cheaper with a priest. But they'd be a good place to fit in a good number of special weapons. Simplest solution would be to drop the blood champion and buy them 3 flamers instead. Minimal change to the list, but considerably more horde killing ability. Alternately you could try a unit like Sanguinary Guard. Their basic guns are effective against horde models and they'll kill a number of targets on the charge and are resilient against anything but power klaws. Just make sure they're supported by the rest of your force, because they're not a total rock unit like TH/SS terminators.

[Ranwulf]

Hello Chronicle77,

 

here are some ideas: First of all, I don't see the point for two priests and a Honour Guard in your army. If the honour guard got some special weapons, I would see the point for them, but they don't even have either a meltagun, plasmagun, power weapons, and other nice goodies. Here is my counsel: either take one of the priests out, and get some nice weaponwry to the Honour Guard, or remove it entirely and buy another squad, parhaps even a Dreadnought!

 

Brother Bhylli already said interesting strategies. But here are some of my ideas:

 

DoA armies do not necessarily have to fall from the skies every game. When I play against horde armies, I jump through the battlefield with my Assault Squads and try to think ahead to see how can I catch my enemy and not give him the advantage of an charge. Other thing, against Orks, you don't have to be afraid to be shot to death with special weapons (well, usually), so you can go thougth the battlefield without fear.

 

Use your mobility to your advantage, as you said, it what managed to keep a tie. Blood Angels rely on speed to get in close combat to win, perhaps it feels similar to playing eldar, but you are far more resilient and strong in CC then the xenos, so be sure, it's not the same thing.

 

Meltaguns are good, but I think there are too many of them. Give someone a flamer my friend! Plasmaguns are good for Honourguard (4 of them are nasty).

 

I want to ask if you really feel the necessity of two Librarians with Shield of Sanguinius. If you use one correctly, you can get your whole army with this nice protection, and give the other fella Sanguine Sword and go around beat sticking the enemy Nobs. Also, a tip, Furioso dreads are also good at dealing with them, and I would even suggest getting an librarian dread, so if you fell the necessity, you give him the shield and another nice power.

 

One final tip. That's REALLY personal, so you have all the rights of disliking it and ignore. Get some nice hard hitting unit. I love Vanguard Veterans, specially with Lightning Claws and Stormshields. Fall from the sky, keep the Klaw Nobs in Close Combat with you and let the rest of your army deal with the other problems!

 

Ran

[Father Mapple]

You have to pay attention to the order of assault when you're fighting orks and make sure that powerfist is trapped on the other side of the assault if possible.

 

I second, third, fourth, and fifth what Byhlli said about focusing your units on one or two of his. If it was a gun line Marine army, you'd shoot down the closest mob, then the next closest, etc. You need to do the same, but with Assaults. So if he deploys spread out, go to one side. If he deploys clumped up, you STILL go to one side and never assault 1 squad on 1 mob. Throw in 2 or 3.

 

And flamers are good if you're going in, but if you're close enough to flame when you actually land on the board, you might have done it wrong. You need to be outside of WAAAUGH range, since most DOA armies either null deploy, or come in later, so be careful that you're 18 inches away, which is only what he'll get 1/6 of the time when he WAAAUGHs, but you can assault every turn.

[Volcatus]

As suggested earlier, adding a fist each to your RAS would be beneficial. As it stands, real CC units (Nobs) have nothing to fear from your list. Dropping one of the Librarians will give you the points you need. He's very redundant in this list. I second the retooling of the HG as well. The Blood Champion isn't all that scary. 4 Flamers can be highly useful, even against non-horde armies.

 

Alternatively you could drop one RAS and the Libby to make room for some missile devastators. A squad of 1 Sgt. and 4 ML weighs in at 130 points. Racking up a dozen or more wounds from each squad's frag missiles goes a long way to dealing with hordes.

[AbusePuppy]

You don't really need two Librarians- they're good, but the second one is mostly redundant.

 

The Honor Guard isn't really doing anything at all, to be honest. No special weapons, just a FNP bubble. Drop those guys, because you're missing some stuff you really need.

 

It looks like you're playing 1500pts? Four ASM squads is a LOT at that level; you could afford to drop one of them, or even just drop it down to five strong, to get points for other stuff. However, it's not strictly necessary. Adding a Power Fist and/or Infernus Pistol to the sarge is also a good option, I almost always go for both to help against "hard" targets like Nobz.

 

You have two choices for what to add: Devastators (with Missiles, natch) or Vanguard Veterans. One or the other of them is simply necessary for DoA lists to work well, because you cannot afford to be sitting in front of the enemy twiddling your thumbs for a turn when you come down; Devs help you start on the table more effectively (more on that in a second), VV are better when you're dropping in. If you go with VV, give them jump packs and one PFist one PW and two Storm Shields total, remembering that the Sarge starts with a PW and gets his upgrades cheaper. You use them to fall in and tie up something dangerous or to take out a heavy shooting squad before they can do any damage.

 

 

In terms of tactics: well, don't Deep Strike. It's unclear from your description whether you did or not, but both Orks and BA rely heavily on getting the charge to win fights. Since you are much, much faster than him, you can easily guarantee yourself doing so by just being careful about ranges. If you charge a regular ASM squad (that's in range of a Priest) against a mob of 30 Boyz with a Klaw in it, you should only lose 2-3 models and kill ~20 of him- and that's just in the first turn of combat. Against Nob squads it's a tougher fight, but consider the usefulness of your Librarian's psychic powers here: Unleash Rage is, of course, helpful, but Sanguine Sword will make every swing cause Instant Death on them and Fear the Darkness can take advantage of their weak morale to run them off the board.

 

However, your easiest strategy against the Nobz is actually very simple: focus all your units on them at once and murder them. If, say, you charge each of his Boyz mobs with an Assault Marine squad, chances are you'll kill them off on his turn and his Nobz will kill one of your ASM squads. Now you aim the other three at him and simply shoot him with everything (nine S8 shots, if you bought the Pistols, which should kill 3-4 Nobz) and then a whole boatload of attacks against him. Nobz are tough, but like anything they will crumble when they're forced to make twenty or forty saves at once.

 

You have a huge advantage over hordes with your mobility and your excellent damage output on the charge. Make sure your squads work together and focus on taking things out and then following up with charges on your next turn. Use his size against him- such large groups of models can't all be in one place at once, so position your ASM on one side of the table and attack him there, "sweeping" across and wiping out his army piece by piece. Try to avoid letting him charge you, but realize that it will probably happen sooner or later, so be ready for it- and be ready to make him pay for it when you charge him back.

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

Missile Launchers, Vindicators, Blood Talons, Death Company. These are my usual faves.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Missile Launchers, Vindicators, Blood Talons, Death Company. These are my usual faves.

 

Not one of these units is usable in a jump infantry list.

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

Missile Launchers, Vindicators, Blood Talons, Death Company. These are my usual faves.

 

Not one of these units is usable in a jump infantry list.

 

Dreadnought with Blood Talons in Drop pod (as support for the infantry), Death Company with Jump Packs. And forgive me. I was under the impression it was a topic about how to handle hordes with Blood Angels in general.

[Bartali]

DoA will never do well against hordes lists. Ever.

 

+1. Start on the table, dictate the assaults and you'll be fine. Whatever you do, don't deepstrike next to him and allow Orks to get the charge.

 

Missile Launchers, Vindicators, Blood Talons, Death Company. These are my usual faves.

 

Not one of these units is usable in a jump infantry list.

 

I beg to differ with Missile Launcher Devs, they're very usuable in a jumper list. Wouldn't touch the others with a barge pole of course B)

[Brother_Byhlli]

Missile Launchers, Vindicators, Blood Talons, Death Company. These are my usual faves.

 

Not one of these units is usable in a jump infantry list.

 

Dreadnought with Blood Talons in Drop pod (as support for the infantry), Death Company with Jump Packs. And forgive me. I was under the impression it was a topic about how to handle hordes with Blood Angels in general.

 

A Dreadnought is never jump infantry. You can give him a Drop Pod but all you do is make him poorly mobile but in a different part of the table.

 

A jump infantry list consists of jump infantry. They move 12", they charge 6", they very often run instead of firing weapons. They're exceptionally fast, exceptionally mobile and generally focused on combat rather than shooting. Granted, Death Company can be equipped with jump packs. But suddenly you're paying through the nose for them and they die awfully easily. Death Company in my opinion can be squeezed into a jump infantry list, but they're better fielded in a mechanised list, in an assault vehicle transport.

 

General questions about handling hordes are easy: take Land Raider Redeemers, twin-linked heavy flamer Razorbacks, flamestorm cannon Baal Predators, Furioso Dreadnoughts with blood talons, etc. However, while the thread title is general, the original post is asking about jump infantry. :(

[Brother_Byhlli]

DoA will never do well against hordes lists. Ever.

 

+1. Start on the table, dictate the assaults and you'll be fine. Whatever you do, don't deepstrike next to him and allow Orks to get the charge.

 

Ok, I misread this comment. Because everyone makes the mistake of calling an army a "DoA list" rather than a "jump infantry list", I assumed that the comment was about jump infantry generally. If we're talking specifically about the tactic, then I agree - it's almost never worth it.

 

Missile Launchers, Vindicators, Blood Talons, Death Company. These are my usual faves.

 

Not one of these units is usable in a jump infantry list.

 

I beg to differ with Missile Launcher Devs, they're very usuable in a jumper list. Wouldn't touch the others with a barge pole of course ;)

 

Devastators are quite definitely not jump infantry. If you're including them, you're not running a jump infantry list. :(

 

I didn't say none of the units works with jump infantry. I was saying that you literally cannot take them in a jump infantry list.

[Xenith]

Start the game on the table, never DoA against an assault army.

[TheHarrower]

For Reference, here is the build I use...

 

Your army is built as anti mech. You'll never do well against horde armies without some cunning play. Hand flamers are too low Strength for the cost, but honestly having them is better than nothing. The Nobs are a beast to deal with. They give me a run for my money against the Death Company, so its no surprise they tore you up. Don't have a lot of advice on how to fix this as I don't play DoA, but don't be surprised that you are losing to horde with this type of list.

[Bartali]

For Reference, here is the build I use...

Your army is built as anti mech.

 

I think you've looked at the specials and ignored the 47 jumpers which are most definately anti-infantry

[Brother_Byhlli]

For Reference, here is the build I use...

 

Your army is built as anti mech. You'll never do well against horde armies without some cunning play. Hand flamers are too low Strength for the cost, but honestly having them is better than nothing. The Nobs are a beast to deal with. They give me a run for my money against the Death Company, so its no surprise they tore you up. Don't have a lot of advice on how to fix this as I don't play DoA, but don't be surprised that you are losing to horde with this type of list.

 

Do you mean you don't play Descent of Angels, or do you mean that you don't play jump infantry? The two are different things.

 

My lists always focus on meltaguns and power fists in case I run up against tanks, but I have never had a problem against hordes.

 

The army list that the OP has given is certainly not ideal, though - I agree with you there. I'm just avoiding commenting on a specific list on a thread that's not in the lists forum. It gets JamesI all wound up! :P

[Brother_Byhlli]

For Reference, here is the build I use...

Your army is built as anti mech.

 

I think you've looked at the specials and ignored the 47 jumpers which are most definately anti-infantry

 

This. Any list at under 1,500 points which brings nearly 50 Space Marines to the table is going to be fairly well-equipped to deal with a horde.

[vahouth]

DoA will never do well against hordes lists. Ever.

That seems to be my problem. ;)

[Volcatus]

DoA will never do well against hordes lists. Ever.

That seems to be my problem. ;)

 

DOA is actually a bit of a trap. Like the all-DC army, if you don't know what you're getting into you'll be frustrated.

 

Pure DOA lacks ranged firepower. It's the fundamental flaw that one needs to develop tactics around in order to face all comers. Accepting that you'll be strong against some lists (mech) and weak versus others (horde) allows you to see the singular dimensionality that DOA provides. Fast melta delivery with above average CC capability.

 

Adding in Sang Guard and VV or Devs, as suggested earlier, is what adds the other tools DOA needs in order to gain the flexibility that uni-task lists lack.

[vahouth]

And what about a SR carrying a Dread with talons?

Would that help in any degree?

[Volcatus]

And what about a SR carrying a Dread with talons?

Would that help in any degree?

 

Sure it will. ;) Be aware though of how easy that SR is to pop, and what a huge target it is, both in terms of size and target priority. Like a lot of our neat BA toys, the SR is a glass cannon.