Brotherhood Champion

[Son of Rawl]

Hey all.

 

Been looking around at a few GK army builds and was just wondering, why no one hardly picks the Brotherhood Champion, looking over his rules, he looks extremely hard to use well but has anyone had any real experiance with him, having a hard time trying to see a good tactic with him over than having tar pit a unit. Or suicide him against a Deathstar unit and hope he takes one out with his psychic attack

[jamsight]

they need more wounds in my opinion, and while their combat stances are a cool idea they just don't work very well I just perfer the librarian as he is a better secondary HQ with the hood and different psychic powers.

[Chairman_woo]

He can be an epic tarpit if you get half decent luck on his rolls, 2+/3++ with rerolls can take some getting past! However the issue is getting him to a position/situation where this is going to be genuinely usefull imho. I figure either he goes in something fast like a raven along with something like purifiers as an interception/blocker unit, or he hangs around your baseline to cockblock any deathstar type unit that gets too close to your lines. The fact that he can knobble IC's and MC's with both his rapier stance and with his death-blow is also usefull in this context I feel as the kind of units you would idealy be using him on are quite likely to be acompanied by some manner of nasty IC. But mostly I like him because he can potentially sit most of the game in CC with just about anything and stand a reasonable chance of holding them up half the game, very contexutual and naturally only ever 1 bad roll away from disappearing but its epicly satisfying when it works :(

[Blood Scorpion]

He's not going to kill much on his own but I think he could work with a large unit of Paladins/Purifers/Terminators that you plan on getting into combat as the ability to re-roll hits on the charge makes a massive difference to the amount of damage the unit is going to do. Also, having him as insurance against a 200+ point enemy IC (Gazgul/Calgar etc) is going to win you some games as his Heroic Sacrifice can take down a single model (even with Eternal Warrior) usually on a 3+.

 

If you need Grand Strategy/Psychic Communion you are always going to need a GM and a Libby is going to add more to your army - but I don't think that 100 points is a huge amount more than a Brotherhood Champion is worth. If he had 2 wounds then I'm sure a lot more armies would include him as a secondary HQ choice.

 

Besides, the picture on page 26 is just cool and I want one that looks just like that!

[Sothalor]

I think it's because the BC doesn't bring much to a GK army even for his price compared to other HQ options.

 

Disregarding named characters and inquisitors for the moment:

 

From a combat perspective, he's a single wound IC with a gimmicky and unreliable ruleset for determining attacks.

 

From a support perspective, the Librarian outshines him with his array of offensive and defensive psychic powers.

 

Compare him with a Grand Master - yes the GM is more expensive, but brings Grand Strategy to the table as well as being more survivable and reliable in close combat, AND can be kitted out for shooting if you want, AND can also bring Psychotroke and Rad grenades.

 

At the end of the day, I'd say the poor Champion gets overshadowed by better competitive choices for an already crowded HQ slot selection. If our codex had something like the Space Wolves rule that allowed you extra HQ selections, then maybe I could see some folks squeezing him in, but with only two available slots he's going to be consistently passed over.

[Gentlemanloser]

The BC should have been an Elite slot choice.

 

With 2 Wounds.

 

And the ability to purchase the grenades instead of Digital Weapons (fail! I can't believe that still hasn't been addressed...)

[nurglez]

If I had 100 points to spend on a power armoured HQ, I would go for Coteaz, as he brings sanctuary, first turn capacity and deepstrike defence. 100 points for a 1 wound chaplain doesn't seem worth it at all, when you are competing with so many better choices..

 

I guess you could use him with some DCA, and a inq with grenades and hammerhand, but there are better choices by far.

[Blood Scorpion]

100 points for a 1 wound chaplain doesn't seem worth it at all, when you are competing with so many better choices..

This is it, I don't think that 100 points is massively over the top for what a BC brings, it's that there are so many better choices for those HQ slots.

 

I still think he's cool though (as I do lone Paladins :P ) and am keen to try him out.

 

I wonder when you tell your opponent that he has a 2/3 chance of taking any model in base contact with him when he dies if they might choose not to allocate any attacks at him - may make up for only having one wound? I can see him breaking off from his squad and charging straight into a Hive Tyrant or Greater Daemon and saying "go on, kill me.....I dare you!". ;)

[Valerian]

The BC should have been an Elite slot choice.

 

With 2 Wounds.

 

And the ability to purchase the grenades instead of Digital Weapons (fail! I can't believe that still hasn't been addressed...)

 

This is exactly it, GM. He, in my opinion, was actually a terrific concept for a new unique unit type, which was exactly what was needed to help fill out a 5th Edition Grey Knights codex. Matt Ward almost pulls it off. He takes a cool concept, but doesn't quite get him where he needs to be in the rules, which is sad because that is normally his strong suit.

 

1. He can't compete against other HQ choices.

 

2. Too expensive for a 1-wound IC (same as the Techmarine). You just can't justify that many points in a model that can be easily picked off, regardless of how neato his rules are.

 

3. I don't think he has Deep Strike, so he can't accompany several units if they are planning on using a "Teleport Assault" playstyle (another problem the Techmarine has).

 

In my opinion, he needs to be an Elite choice, with 2 Wounds that competes with the Techmarine to be included. Both of them, in turn, need to be valuable/worthwhile enough to compete with all of the other awesome units in the army list. Nothing should be a no-brainer selection, and nothing should be a throw-away choice. Unfortunately, the Champion is a throw-away, as he can't compete with either the GM or Librarian, or even with an Inquisitor, if your just looking for a cheaper HQ.

[jeffersonian000]

BroChamps really should have been Elites with grenades and 2 wounds. However, in really low point games (500-750), they're actually pretty good. They can stall out just about any assault, tarpiting pretty much anything that could actually harm your GK at that level of play. But yeah, they are in the wrong slot for the role they can play.

 

SJ

[Valerian]

So, hypothetical question: if Brotherhood Champions were Elite Choices, had 2 Wounds, and could Deep Strike, would they become a "no-brainer" auto-select choice, or would they simply be viable, and competitive vice the other Elite selections? Would his price need to go up? What about also including a Personal Teleporter option for about +25? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to stick an IC with your Interceptors to turn them into more of a "premier" assault unit (with Titan's Herald, and his own combat power)?

 

V

[Something Wycked]

In that case, they would definitely be viable- he would in effect be a twin to the Blood Angels Chaplains in the Elite slot. The PT option would make him an auto-include for me; I would design one unit of Interceptors to be assault oriented and bring another two units as shooting support, then mix in PTDK's to round out the points.

 

I do think his price would need to go up if given an additional wound, though. About 15-ish feels right to me.

[Crynn]

2 wounds and a 25 personal teleporter. Hell yeah give me some of that! Interceptors are already good falchion would become a much better options as with re-rolls to hit they wouldn't be such a bad choice. I would definately try that, and I think it would be at least competitive, still not an auto include in every list. If he could have grenades, now we are talking auto include!

 

Another thing I would have like to have seen would be an option for more wargear on him for instance maybe different nemesis weapons for him except a staff. halbard for i6 whirlwinds, falchion for +1 attack in all stances, hammer just for fun. Adds flavour.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[The Holy Heretic]

What our bro' needs, is access to grenades.

 

His Artificer Armour allows him to join assault purifiers, without having to lose their ability to sweep, and his parrying stance adds to their survivability. He might seem squishy, but a re-rollable 3++ is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Also. He is a cheap HQ among a bunch of very pricy ones :)

[Gentlemanloser]

So, hypothetical question: if Brotherhood Champions were Elite Choices, had 2 Wounds, and could Deep Strike, would they become a "no-brainer" auto-select choice, or would they simply be viable, and competitive vice the other Elite selections? Would his price need to go up? What about also including a Personal Teleporter option for about +25? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to stick an IC with your Interceptors to turn them into more of a "premier" assault unit (with Titan's Herald, and his own combat power)?

 

He would then compete with CB Techs, Ven Psyflemen, Pallies and Puri's. So def not a no brainer. ;)

 

Maybe a slight point increase, but 100 points 'seems' right.

 

The PT option is gold. As it is, he's designed (as mentioned above) to only really accompany Puri's (and not even in Rhinos/Stormraven), and we've no option to add an IC to our Interceptors.

 

Three BCs with PTs attached to three Interceptor Squads, and three PT wearing NDKs! ;) What a Strike force! :) Maybe even with three SR transports (if only the NDK could fit itself into the Dread Grapple.... It would solve our lack of CC Dread, unlike the Bangles).

 

Edit: He wouldn't even have to be moved to Elites, if he was given a "Doesn't take up a FoC slot exception".

 

Also. He is a cheap HQ among a bunch of very pricy ones

 

Inquisitors are better for that. Any of the three.

[number6]

My only complaint about the Champion is his lack of access to psychotrokes and rad grenades. Of course, if he DID have access to those grenades, I'd also want a 2nd wound on him! :)

 

I use him once in a while, and he's fine. The only HQ cheaper than this guy is an Inquisitor, and sometimes I just don't need or want an Inquisitor, so the Champion slots right in, cheap as chips. Considering how much you have to invest in any other HQ, I don't think we can complain too loudly. He's cheap enough that you can fearlessly throw him into the blender. He can tarpit quite well, and with just a bit of luck, can absolutely remove a meddlesome enemy character.

 

It's that last ability that is the real clincher for me. No opponent wants to chance their souped-up characters against this guy. Killing him in melee is actually a dangerous proposition!

 

He's interesting. I understand why he doesn't get used often. He's not the blunt instrument that is generally favored. But he's hella fun and far from useless.

 

I like the standard Champion better than Crowe! You can stick the basic Champion in a unit!

[Morollan]

My friend uses him in small games, mainly because all the other GK (ie, not Inquisitors) HQ choices are in Terminator Armour and therefore cannot go in the sort of transport that you can afford in such games. If the captain, libby or GM had a PA option then I'm sure they'd be taken in preference.

[thade]

I think the reason he's not an Elite choice is very simple.

 

Draigo + Paladins + Librarian buffs + rerolls on attacks on the charge = BROKEN.

 

That said, I can see him being fine (as others have said) given different list compositions.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You meant to say MOAR BROKEN.

 

;)

 

G :)

[the jeske]

I think the reason he's not an Elite choice is very simple.

 

Draigo + Paladins + Librarian buffs + rerolls on attacks on the charge = BROKEN.

 

That said, I can see him being fine (as others have said) given different list compositions.

and it looks like 900 pts too. nothing is broken for 900pts.

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL!

 

But you can stick him with them anyway, you just lose out on either the Libby or Draigo! (And don't forget a techmarine in there as well!)

 

I like the standard Champion better than Crowe! You can stick the basic Champion in a unit!

 

LoL! I think every other unit int he Codex (Even the jokers!) are liked better than Crowe! :huh:

[thade]

I think the reason he's not an Elite choice is very simple.

 

Draigo + Paladins + Librarian buffs + rerolls on attacks on the charge = BROKEN.

 

That said, I can see him being fine (as others have said) given different list compositions.

and it looks like 900 pts too. nothing is broken for 900pts.

More to the point, any unit with falcions, a brotherhood banner, and I10 should not also have rerolls on the charge. Even without the banner it's still pretty awesome. It's a 25% increase in expected hits: it's too good.

 

He's fine as an HQ choice. He's a weird merger of a ranged support (boltgun/power sword variety) SM Captain and a Chaplain. Perfect comfortable (at 100 as a budget HQ option) sitting out at range with his storm bolter, chilling with the boys. If his unit (Strikes, Purifiers, Termies, whatever) has to get into melee, they're at a massive advantage for his presence, both because he's a beast in combat and because he buffs the squad on the charge.

[Gentlemanloser]

More to the point, any unit with falcions, a brotherhood banner, and I10 should not also have rerolls on the charge.

 

Nothing stopping that now though. :)

 

And havign them charge out of a Stormraven! :huh:

 

SPOOOONNN!!!!

[the jeske]

It's a 25% increase in expected hits: it's too good.

so is a chaplain in a LC armed terminator unit for loyalist joined by calgar or lysander [and it 2/3the points].

I see no problem if someone wants to run a 900pts unit , he should know though that on avarge 2 str 10 templates decimate that unit unless it goes to the ground. how many units does this suppose to charge to get points back in kill point missions and as scoring goes if he was elite people would still didnt drop a rifle man to take him . he would either have to be able to get+2inv from shoting or be 2 eternal warrior.

 

 

he makes no sense as an HQ . specials are better , normal HQs like libby or GK are better no matter if someone plays 1k mor 2500pts. he doesnt even have access to grenades which would make him semi viable [a GM/libby would still be better].

[thade]

LC armed terminator units don't go at I10, don't have Force Weapons (that can potentially activate without a roll), and can't get to S6 without batting an eye lash. Also, LC terminators only have three attacks on the charge, not four (again, with the presence of the banner).

 

He makes sense as an HQ insofar as variety, necessary limitations on list composition options, and the fact he's a melee Champion of the one army reputed to be the best in hand-to-hand combat. I'm okay with it. It's cool that you're not.

 

Also, I fully endorse the usage of the battle cry "SPOON!" when charging anything out of a Storm Raven with 20+ I10 Falchion attacks.