Ho, brothers! Hear my call!

[Brother_Byhlli]

Hey, guys.

 

I'm just wanting to spread word of my new personal crusade: I will be actively going out of my way from here on in to suggest to anyone who uses the term "Descent of Angels list", "DoA list" or similar that what they actually mean is "jump infantry list". I may be a pedant (in fact, there's no doubt about it - I am a pedant!) but I think this is a confusion that we can do without.

 

Descent of Angels is an extremely specific tactical move. It's not an army type. And for new players who come onto the forum and read about "DoA lists" it can create a very strong impression that the only way to play these jump infantry lists is to reserve everything and deep strike it all.

 

I personally think this is harmful to the game and to our own Blood Angels battle brothers' chances of getting as much from the army as possible.

 

Can we move away from describing lists as "Descent of Angels" and towards describing them as "jump infantry"? I would still be a pedant, but at least I'd be a happy pedant.

 

:(

[SamaNagol]

Everyone knows what a DoA list is. The word 'list' after DoA implies that the list is tailoured to specifically use the DoA tactic.

 

There's no confusion

[Brother_Byhlli]

Everyone knows what a DoA list is. The word 'list' after DoA implies that the list is tailoured to specifically use the DoA tactic.

 

There's no confusion

 

There's absolutely confusion. The confusion is obvious in the fact that people say "DoA list". There is no such thing. This is like saying it's a "shoot Valkyries with lascannons list". It doesn't make sense. It's also needlessly confusing. I've already had to ask for clarification in two separate posts today because I genuinely wasn't sure whether the poster meant "Descent of Angels" or "jump infantry".

 

Additionally, the problem is amplified in the case of new players, who see the rule and see the name of the list and think "oh, this type of list has to be played using that special rule", which is an absolute crock.

 

I will absolutely continue to fight people who are saying "DoA" instead of "jump infantry".

[SamaNagol]

Good luck

[Smendrik]

I am one of these new BA-Players and i have to admit i got a bit confused on the beginning.

 

Anyway... You can't win if all your strategies are just out of a forum and if you don't think for yourself...

 

Just because your army is designed around a special rule doesn't mean you have to use it every single time you play.

A DoA-list IS a DoA-list. If you use the rule or not.

[Bartali]

Additionally, the problem is amplified in the case of new players, who see the rule and see the name of the list and think "oh, this type of list has to be played using that special rule", which is an absolute crock.

 

This definately does need to be emphasied. If you're running jump infantry, you don't have to deep strike them and more often than not you're better starting them on the table.

[Smendrik]

though it would be nice to have a pinned thread or two with tipps for noobs like me to discuss tactics of certain lists, like the options you have fielding a DoA-List... (yes, i said it ;O))

[Brother_Byhlli]

I am one of these new BA-Players and i have to admit i got a bit confused on the beginning.

 

Thank you.

 

Anyway... You can't win if all your strategies are just out of a forum and if you don't think for yourself...

 

That's true. But we don't need to go complicating things with misinformation. :) Good that you're aware you need to think for yourself!

 

Just because your army is designed around a special rule doesn't mean you have to use it every single time you play.

A DoA-list IS a DoA-list. If you use the rule or not.

 

That doesn't make sense. Why don't you call it a "movement" list? Or a "list with units in it list"? Or a "sometimes we shoot at stuff but sometimes we run instead and often we end up in combat and occasionally I've won with this list list"?

 

Naming the entire list after one specific tactical option doesn't make sense. I would accept you calling it "a list I can occasionally use Descent of Angels with should the appropriate tactical situation arise", but that's not the same thing. Not at all.

 

:)

 

Additionally, the problem is amplified in the case of new players, who see the rule and see the name of the list and think "oh, this type of list has to be played using that special rule", which is an absolute crock.

 

This definately does need to be emphasied. If you're running jump infantry, you don't have to deep strike them and more often than not you're better starting them on the table.

 

Thank you. I agree entirely.

 

I would go so far as to say that at least 90% of the time you're better of not deep striking.

 

Defining a list by something it might do less than 10% of the time seems silly to me. It's like me calling my microwave "my emergency sock dryer".

[Brother_Byhlli]

though it would be nice to have a pinned thread or two with tipps for noobs like me to discuss tactics of certain lists, like the options you have fielding a DoA-List... (yes, i said it ;O))

 

Do you mean a jump infatry list? :)

 

The tactics threads crop up here and there. It's always worth searching for them.

 

The problem is, as you so astutely pointed out, no-one can tell you what tactic you should use. The best that we can do, in my opinion, is to say what units work well against certain types of units, to say what units work badly against certain types of units, etc.

 

The problem is that no two games are ever going to be the same. There is literally infinite variety in tactics for any game of Warhammer, because it's not a grid-based system.

 

So, if you have specific tactical questions, do a quick search. If nothing comes up, open a thread. We'll be able to give you some insight into how we've done it in the past. :)

[Morollan]

I realise you admit to advanced pedantry in the opening post but does it really matter? I'm fine with calling it a DoA list as all BA Jump Infantry have the DoA rule so you're simply describing BA Jump Infantry. And frankly DoA is easier to type than BA Jump Infantry.

[JamesI]

For those asking for pinned threads, we ended up with too many pinned threads. If you send a PM to Morticon or I we can add links to worthy threads to the BA resources thread pinned above.

[Volcatus]

I realise you admit to advanced pedantry in the opening post but does it really matter? I'm fine with calling it a DoA list as all BA Jump Infantry have the DoA rule so you're simply describing BA Jump Infantry. And frankly DoA is easier to type than BA Jump Infantry.

 

This. Splitting hairs won't gain you any friends or provide any massive, useful, or unique insight to new players. Experienced vets providing tactical advice is what is needed, and is exactly what is provided by this forum.

 

Any forum on the B&C can provide jump infantry information and tactics. Welcome to the BA forum. We speak DOA. ;)

[RebG]

I'm in the not confused at all camp.

 

It's an army type and shouldn't be deleted - some people's armies are specific DOA forces where everyone has a jump pack and uses DOA to enter play so it's a valid term. A jump infantry army is not the same thing.

 

I'd agree that the term can be used a little broadly to cover other jump based lists but the same could be applied to mildly diluted Raven/Death/Logan/Draigowing.

 

As Volcatus said; you are, at best, splitting hairs.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I realise you admit to advanced pedantry in the opening post but does it really matter? I'm fine with calling it a DoA list as all BA Jump Infantry have the DoA rule so you're simply describing BA Jump Infantry. And frankly DoA is easier to type than BA Jump Infantry.

 

Yes, I honestly believe it does matter. The reason I believe it matters is the incredible number of times I have to explain to someone that just because a unit or an army has the Descent of Angels rule does not mean that it has to take advantage of it and deep strike.

 

We are actively misleading and confusing people who are new to the game. It's not helpful.

 

My pedantry is extreme, but I have a firm grip on it. This isn't some attempt to fix the world - it's an attempt to make a small change on a relatively insignificant forum that will possibly help some people to understand a game of toy soldiers a little bit better. I'm not deceiving myself. I'm not trying to fix global hunger. But I think it's a problem that causes a disproportionate amount of confusion relative to the effort it would make from those of us who know better to sort it.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I'm in the not confused at all camp... some people's armies are specific DOA forces where everyone has a jump pack and uses DOA to enter play so it's a valid term. A jump infantry army is not the same thing.

 

Seems you are a bit confused. But you make my point exactly. They are not the same thing. And it doesn't help new players.

 

There are also plenty of times that I get confused myself when I read "Descent of Angels" and I honestly don't know whether the player means the tactic or the generic jump infantry army list.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I realise you admit to advanced pedantry in the opening post but does it really matter? I'm fine with calling it a DoA list as all BA Jump Infantry have the DoA rule so you're simply describing BA Jump Infantry. And frankly DoA is easier to type than BA Jump Infantry.

 

This. Splitting hairs won't gain you any friends or provide any massive, useful, or unique insight to new players.

 

Nark off. I never once claimed otherwise. I'm not trying to re-write Sun Tzu's works for Warhammer and I'd appreciate if you'd keep your sarcasm to yourself.

 

Firstly, I'm not splitting hairs. I'm drawing an exceptionally clear distinction between the special rule "Descent of Angels" and the troop type "jump infantry". And I think it's a crucial distinction, because very often, new players are getting the two confused. In fact, very often, regular players are getting the two confused. Jump infantry are not Descent of Angels troops, any more than you can label them all "bolt-pistol" troops. This is exceptionally simple. Labelling the troops by an ability they can use - and will use less than 10% of the time in the hands of any half-decent player - is misdirecting new players and confusing an issue that does not need to be confused.

 

Experienced vets providing tactical advice is what is needed, and is exactly what is provided by this forum.

 

Right. We're here to provide experience to new players, you say? That's our role? Well why, then, do you baulk so strongly at the suggestion that we could do it in a less confusing way? You surely cannot possibly deny that calling the rule by its name and calling the troop type by their name is less confusing than calling them both the same thing? So why do it?

 

Any forum on the B&C can provide jump infantry information and tactics. Welcome to the BA forum. We speak DOA. :rolleyes:

 

Oh, balls. You know as well as I do that Blood Angels do jump infantry all kinds of better than probably any other army in the game. If I wanted advice on hordes, I could come here and hope to find a thread on all-Scout Squad armies, or I could hop on over to the Orks. Sure, other pages will have information on jump infantry. But we are the army who use them most. And Descent of Angels - as a special rule - is a minor, minor part of that. Assault Squads use their chainswords more often than they use Descent of Angels - why not call it a "chainsword list"?

[AustonT]

Good luck

 

+1

[Volcatus]

You're funny.

 

Should we take on the life-or-death matter of RAS versus ASM while we're at it?

 

DoA and jump infantry are part and parcel for BA. 'Nuff said. Using DOA smartly and jump infantry smartly are all a part of playing DOA armies.

[Drunken Angel]

Try putting DOA into searchy you get nothing .... zip, why not use something other than DOA for your title if for no other reason than the search engine can't find DOA. Jump pack infantry just meets the search engine specs exactly and will return more specific search results on enquiry.

 

Just my nickels worth :rolleyes:

[vahouth]

DOA is a list that exploits the ability to DS more accuratelly than every other army out there.

That's why DOA lists includes Jump Infantry mostly, but not exclusively, eg SRs can also fit there as well as they also cover that rule.

A DOA list is not just a Jump Infantry list, it's more.

That's how I see it and maybe I'm not the only one. :D

Try putting DOA into searchy you get nothing .... zip, why not use something other than DOA for your title if for no other reason than the search engine can't find DOA. Jump pack infantry just meets the search engine specs exactly and will return more specific search results on enquiry.

Just my nickels worth

Try putting:

VV

ASM

RAS

VAS

etc...;)

Btw a google search of DOA showed me what happens when playing it the wrong way:

Dead

On

Arrival

lol

[Brother_Byhlli]

That's why DOA lists includes Jump Infantry mostly, but not exclusively, eg SRs can also fit there as well as they also cover that rule.

 

Oh look. Confusion about Descent of Angels.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

I guess even after going through this entire thread I still don't know what the confusion is. I'm going to refer to my list as a Decent of Angels if thats the way I intend to use it. If I were intending on using it starting all my Jump Infantry on the table I might refer to it as a Jump Infantry List. If you have the intention of deep striking every model in an army and they all have jump packs so there for DoA why not call it a Decent of Angels list?

 

-Samirus

[Jorre]

I'm from australia, over here we call it tomato sauce. In America I here the same thing is called ketchup. Hardly worthy of a discussion though

[AustonT]

Dignified Americans call it Catsup. Germans make it with curry in it (or at least that's where I bought mine) delicious!

[AbusePuppy]

Breaking news, pedantry and the internet a good mix. Story at 11.