Spazmonkey Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I would love to run a unit of WG with jump packs. but the model is 43points without upgrades. its so overpriced its silly. But I figure if they are expensive then why not go the whole hog and have a points spend spree.... x5 WG x5 packs x5 WC/WC x5 Melta bombs just in case =390 points.... x5 WG x5 TDA x5 WC/WC X5 melta bombs x1 DP =300 Now thats 90 points difference. Disadvantages - So you loose the armor save from TDA. Lose the invun save from TDA Cost 90 points more Terminators have to come in on first turn unless you have another DP. (not really a disadvantage but im grasping at straws) No sweeping advance. Unit can only number 5 in a DP Benifits - Additional movement move over any terrain relentless Sweeping advance Can attach characters without downsizing. deepstriking ( again not really an advantage) So here is the question While the JPWG are a cool unit and would do some damage, specially with a WP, 40 attacks on the charge rerolling hits / and wounds Do you think the base unit is worth an additional 90 points over the Terminators. Have I left advantages or disadvantages out? What do you all think? Has anyone tried this? would love to hear results if you have. The Melta bombs would be dropped if using a wolf priest/rune priest attached to either unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 aren't skyclaws with the attacked wolf priest a better choise? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 aren't skyclaws with the attacked wolf priest a better choise? Not really. they do different things. Firstly WG get 2 attacks base.... also this is a wolf claw load out, so power weapons = no armour save. Also with out a wolf priest the still get to re roll hits. With a wolf priest the re roll hits and wounds. And without a wolf priest they dont go into a rabid Frenzy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Standard Skyclaws with Wolf Priest 10 Skyclaws with Power Fist = 215pt Wolf Priest with Jump Pack = 125pt Total: 340pt Stats: 11 Wounds (One with 3+/4++) Deep Strike - Jump Infantry Re-rolls to hit in close combat Fearless 1 Power Fist attack base, 3 on Charge 3 Power Weapon attacks base, 4 on charge 18 normal attacks base, 36 normal attacks on charge Your 5-man Wolf Guard Squad 5 Wolf Guard with 2x Wolf Claws & Melta Bombs = 390pt Stats: 5 wounds Deep Strike - Jump Infantry Re-roll to hit or to wound 5 Melta Bomb attacks against vehicles 15 Power Weapon attacks base, 20 Power Weapon attacks on charge ++++ So, the breakdown. Lets say you've deployed turn 1, and you get first turn. Your charging a standard 10-man las/plas tactical team with a Power Fist Sgt, and for some reason they're the only models shooting at you. Turn 1. You move half way across the field at them (Assuming you were dead on 24" away from them to begin with). They get a single round of shooting at you, 3s to hit, 1 las shot, 2 plas shots, and 16 bolter rounds. 2 of the Las/Plas shots hit, and wound, no saves, 2 of your guys die. 10 Bolter rounds hit, 5 wound, and you fail 2 saves, 2 more die. The Skyclaws are down to 6 guys + the Wolf Priest, fearless, they press on. Your Wolf Guard have a single guy left, for arguments sake, we'll say he passes his leadership, and nothing else shoots at him to finish him off. Turn 2. Your Skyclaws + Wolf Priest shoot a single pistol shot at them each, 11 shots, 7 hit, 4 wound, your enemy fails 1 save, 9 guys left in his squad. You WG can't shoot, so doesn't. You Charge. Your Skyclaws roll to hit with 4 Power Weapon attacks, 20 normal attacks, and 3 Power Fist attacks. With re-rolls, 3 Power Weapon attacks hit, 15 normal attacks hit, and 2 Power Fist attacks hit. 1 Power Weapon attack wounds, both Power Fist attacks wound, and 7 of the normal attacks wound. 3 tactical marines die for power weapon hits, and another 2 from the normal attacks. The lone Wolf Guard charges. Rolls to hit with 4 Power Weapon attacks. Using re-rolls to hit, as wound or hit will need 4s, you hit with 3, and wound with 2. 2 tactical marines die. I think you can see where this is going. Deep striking will generally lead to a similar result. If you could attach Wolf Guard to Skyclaws, the ability to give them Jump Packs would make sense. Without it, it's pointless, and a very expensive bullet catcher unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 For arguements sake. Wolf Priest [125pt] Jump Pack 10 Wolf Guard [450pt] 10x Jump Packs, Power Fist Total: 575pt For basically the same load-out / effectiveness as Skyclaws. Wolf Guard Pack leaders or TDA squads are effective, hell even as a shock unit in a Land Raider (Albeit a very expensive one), but with Jump Packs, they're expensive cannon-fodder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 For arguements sake. Wolf Priest [125pt] Jump Pack 10 Wolf Guard [450pt] 10x Jump Packs, Power Fist Total: 575pt For basically the same load-out / effectiveness as Skyclaws. Wolf Guard Pack leaders or TDA squads are effective, hell even as a shock unit in a Land Raider (Albeit a very expensive one), but with Jump Packs, they're expensive cannon-fodder. Yeah thats kind of my point. Why include somthing in a codex that has no real value. what is the point at all. I mean sure Wolf claw toting wolf guard with jump packs just looks awesome... but its just one of the many redundant rules / wargear options in the codex.... Still they do have the advantage of not allowig armour saves.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 That being said, you also have to look at the comparative costs in relation to their toughness. For skyclaws, you can get a whole bundle of them, add a fist and for under half the cost, you have twice the bodies for a compartively decent melee unit. For 215, it's a decentish melee unit with a power fist that is able to move around really quickly and practively charge. More imporently, it's effectiveness won't be so drastically effected by wounds, and it will be often cheap enough to not mind being shot up. Unlike the wolf guard. It won't beat a specialised combat unit and is not as good as Grey hunters overall (seriously, scoring. Not much new there) but it forfills a unique nickal that allows it to tarpit or rip through a light unit or bog down a slower one. 390 points or 300 points for a 5 man unit is silly, unless your a grey knight pladin, the guys are simply too frail to ever make the points back. Even within their range, and their combat ability will drastically drop with each wound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastrchief33 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I don't field terminators or wolf guard units in general, but I will say there is a significant difference between 2+/5+ and 3+/--- saving throws when you are discussing this small a unit size. Yes they are both good in close combat and jump packs can get you there faster, but I favor defensive properties over offensive or simply...more offense in almost all comparisons like this. I think the unit cost differential speaks a lot about how versatile terminators are in this codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 I guess im just trying to find a plausable reason to ever thake WG with Packs.. ok what about x5 WG x5 JP x5 Combi weapons X5 power weapons... this comes in at about 315 Would be a bit like the blood angels sturnguard or whatever they call them. More to the point can anyone think of a way that Wolfguard with packs are plausable? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 No Quite simply they're better suited in other roles, and we have Skyclaws, and/or Swiftclaws that suit the role of fast assault units quite well already. If you really want, take a pack of Skyclaws with Power Fist, Jump Pack Wolf Priest, and Jump Pack Battle Leader with 2x Wolf Claws. The Battle leader then gets re-rolled hits from the Wolf Priest, can re-roll wounds from his Wolf Claws, and if you then give him warrior born as well... well he becomes quiet the close combat monster. Could even tack on 2 Fenrisian wolves to really max out the additional wounds in the squad so that you hit their lines with as much as possible. Haha, now I'm actually interested, that is quite a beasty little assault unit, 1 minute... WG Battle Leader [180pt] Jump Pack, 2x Wolf Claws, Saga of the Warrior Born, 2x Fenrisian Wolves Wolf Priest [125pt] Jump Pack 10 Skyclaws [205pt] (I costed it wrong first time around) Power Fist Total: 510pt (Still cheaper then the 10x Wolf Guard Jump Troops, and a hell of a lot more effective). If you really want to go to town on the idea, throw in mark of the Wulfen on a Skyclaw, and melta-bombs on the ICs, for another 25pts. Thinking on the damage potential of this unit... A fearless, I5, re-rolling to hit & to wound IC, with an accumulative attack profile is just... nasty. lol Might have to give it a run against my mates BA and his Brother's GK... I'll let you know how it goes :woot:. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 logan in the list, making them troops, and having one or 2 models with a jp that are not used as packleaders, to rush to an objective, and claim it? why contest with a Landspeeder if you can claim with a Jumppack wearing wolfguard? that's about all I can think of :woot: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Minimum WG pack size is 3. So that's 275pt (Logan) to make them scoring, and another 129 for a 3-wound, no special equipment, scoring unit. Better off making a proper "Logan-Wing" list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 logan in the list, making them troops, and having one or 2 models with a jp that are not used as packleaders, to rush to an objective, and claim it? why contest with a Landspeeder if you can claim with a Jumppack wearing wolfguard? that's about all I can think of :( Hrmmm... its a very sad thing... sigh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Just for fun (1250pt being current army level mates and I are playing with); +HQ+ WG Battle Leader - Jump Pack, 2x Wolf Claws, Saga of the Warrior Born - [160pt] Wolf Priest - Jump Pack - [125pt] +Elites+ 3 Wolf Guard - 2x Combi-Plasma & Power Fist, 1x Combi-Melta & Power Fist - [129pt] +Troops+ 5 Grey Hunters - Plasma, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard - Drop Pod - [145pt] 5 Grey Hunters - Plasma, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard - Drop Pod - [145pt] 5 Grey Hunters - Melta, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard - Drop Pod - [140pt] +Fast Attack+ 10 Skyclaws - Power Fist - [205pt] Landspeeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta - [100pt] Landspeeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta - [100pt] I actually don't mind the look of that... something a little bit different. I'll give it a run and see how it goes :(. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Just for fun (1250pt being current army level mates and I are playing with); +HQ+ WG Battle Leader - Jump Pack, 2x Wolf Claws, Saga of the Warrior Born - [160pt] Wolf Priest - Jump Pack - [125pt] +Elites+ 3 Wolf Guard - 2x Combi-Plasma & Power Fist, 1x Combi-Melta & Power Fist - [129pt] +Troops+ 5 Grey Hunters - Plasma, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard - Drop Pod - [145pt] 5 Grey Hunters - Plasma, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard - Drop Pod - [145pt] 5 Grey Hunters - Melta, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard - Drop Pod - [140pt] +Fast Attack+ 10 Skyclaws - Power Fist - [205pt] Landspeeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta - [100pt] Landspeeder Typhoon - Multi-Melta - [100pt] I actually don't mind the look of that... something a little bit different. I'll give it a run and see how it goes :(. you know what, I really like the look of that too... great list for a heavy terrain city fight, actually, what about dropping some of the sky claws or the rune priest casue that unit will smoke anything it touches. then you could run a heavy unit like a whirlwind for indirect fire support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I don't understand why you're spending an additional 15 pts for a second Wolf Claw instead of just keeping the bolt pistol? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Additional close combat attack. Power Fists, Wolf Claws, & Lightning Claws do not count towards the two close combat weapons needed to provide an additional close combat attack, unless take in pairs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Additional close combat attack. Power Fists, Wolf Claws, & Lightning Claws do not count towards the two close combat weapons needed to provide an additional close combat attack, unless take in pairs. Ahh.. and apparently Thunder Hammers (p. 42 40kRB). Can haz 2x t-hammers? Thanks for clarifying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 haha yeah you can, and no problem :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryke Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Not wanting to side track the topic, but just a small question. Maybe it's cause I didn't get much sleep last night, but couldn't you buy an extra wolf guard (by himself, not attached to any squad), give him a combi-melta and deep strike him? Not sure how viable it is, but 48 points base for something that doesn't give a killpoint and has the potential to do serious damage seems pretty funny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Not wanting to side track the topic, but just a small question. Maybe it's cause I didn't get much sleep last night, but couldn't you buy an extra wolf guard (by himself, not attached to any squad), give him a combi-melta and deep strike him? Not sure how viable it is, but 48 points base for something that doesn't give a killpoint and has the potential to do serious damage seems pretty funny. The only way to get that Wolf Guard "by himself" would be to buy him in a squad and second out all the other WGs, thus leaving him the sole member of the Wolf Guard pack. However that makes him worth a kill point the instant he buys it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryke Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Ah, just checked the faq, you're right, he does give away a killpoint. Still, it seems like a really funny but stupid idea, anyone crazy enough to have tried it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2869544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Its a pitty Arjac cant drop his TAD For a jump pack. Here is a thought though. If you buy a WL or WGBL and a jump pack you can still take Fen wolves as well.... No how would that work. Fen wolves cant move at the same speed as a jump pack, woould we just assume that as they are Wargear for the WL or WGBL then they just magically follow the IC at all times? Though it would be fun to convert a jump pack onto a Fen wolf, could look cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2870029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Ah, just checked the faq, you're right, he does give away a killpoint. Still, it seems like a really funny but stupid idea, anyone crazy enough to have tried it? This is precisely why we have Lone Wolves... Fenrisian wolves are always considered to take on the same unit properties as their "master", think of them as Tau shield drones, except that they don't take on the master's toughness/save. They are cavalry, so can technically move at relatively the same pace anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2870062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Ah, just checked the faq, you're right, he does give away a killpoint. Still, it seems like a really funny but stupid idea, anyone crazy enough to have tried it? This is precisely why we have Lone Wolves... Fenrisian wolves are always considered to take on the same unit properties as their "master", think of them as Tau shield drones, except that they don't take on the master's toughness/save. They are cavalry, so can technically move at relatively the same pace anyway. I still want to model them with jump packs... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237919-wolf-guard-with-jump-packs/#findComment-2870100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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