Question about Choosing Saves

[jbarket]

Hey guys,

 

I ran into an issue in a game this weekend, and my forever opponent and I realized we actually didn't know where in the BRB the way we've been playing for years is backed up.

 

Let's say there's a unit of 10 Tactical Marines with 100% identical gear in area terrain, and a unit of Imperial Guard Vets with 3 flamers and a demo charge outside the terrain attacking them. The demo charge does 6 wounds, and the flamers do 12. For the sake of keeping this simple, the lasguns miss.

 

A model can only make a single save, but what about a unit? Assuming they have the same gear, they all get rolled together, so I assume it would be impossible to separate saves based on identical gear.

 

On the other hand, what if the unit was complex? Let's say 7 identical Tactical Marines, 1 Sergeant, 1 ML Marine and 1 FL Marine.

 

With wound allocation, you could put all of the flamers on the 7 Tactical Marines, 2 demo on the Sergeant, 2 demo on the ML Marine and 2 demo on the FL Marine. Because they're geared differently, could you then choose to take armor saves for the 7 identical and cover saves for the other 3 models?

 

If that's the case, let's assume the flip side. There's a squad of identically equipped Terminators, and they take 2 AP2 hits and 10 AP- hits. Would they have to either all take their invulnerable save, or all take their 2+?

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Each model wounded uses "their" best save. This can be a mix of Armour, Cover, or Invulnerable throughout the squad. Mix and match to your heart's content.

[Something Wycked]

Here I was writing up this massive post with examples and citations and etc etc. I refresh the page to see if there's any replies and, lo! And behold! Hiro says it all clearly and succinctly.

[Ming]

just remember there are caveats to this, in particular the impact of unsave-able instant death (2xT) wounds.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

Yeah I believe it is the roll to wound part of the book? basically everyone has to take a hit, then you divide which one are let to take another hit, and so forth. You can mix and match and as stated you can take armour, cover, or invul save depending on the weapon and Str vs Toughness.

[DarkGuard]

just remember there are caveats to this, in particular the impact of unsave-able instant death (2xT) wounds.

 

What? No where does it say that ID: 2xT wounds are unsaveable, quite the opposite. You may attempt to make a save as normal, be it armour if the AP hasn't beaten your armour, or invulnerable or cover if otherwise, but you simply die if you fail regardless of how many wounds you have (Eternal Warrior, of course, is exempt). But you can also try to save against it if you can.

[thade]

DG is on the money. Wounds that carry the threat of Instant Death deny you Feel No Pain; perhaps that's where that confusion lies?

[daveclark890]

just remember there are caveats to this, in particular the impact of unsave-able instant death (2xT) wounds.

 

I think what is being aimed at here is a str 8 ap2 weapon being used against a str4 4+ sv type scenario where there would not be a cover save.

 

How ever back to the original post:

 

You need to share out all of the wounds inflicted on the squad, say for eg a guard vet squad with a melta and 5 lasguns fires at a combat squad of marines with a captain. The melta and 2 las guns hit. Now melta is AP1 ans str 8 so is insta death to a standard marine, however as your the controlling player of the wounded models you can choose to place the 1 melta hit on your captain because the iron halo will give the oppertunity to save.

 

Now say its a squad of 10 guard with a melta gun and 9 lasguns and they have been given "FRFSRF" order they are rapid firing so they are going to get more hits against the squad of marines. This time the marines take 12 las and 2 melta. Each marine including the captain would take 2 lasgun hits, you can then decide to put 1 melta hit on the captain and try to save it, or allocate them both to normal marines knowing that the 2 lasgun wounds are then irrelevant as the 2 marines will be dead.

 

As to what type of save you use... You will always use the best available, so if your armour is 3+ use that, unless AP 3 weapon negates it, then if you got a cover save you use that! But either the whole squad is in cover or not. The only time this is different is if your being shot at by 2 different AP weapons and 1 negates your armour, then you can use the cover save on that 1 and your best save on the rest, for the Orks this will pretty much always be the cover save!

[Something Wycked]

I think what is being aimed at here is a str 8 ap2 weapon being used against a str4 4+ sv type scenario where there would not be a cover save.

Unless that S8 AP2 weapon also has the rule "Ignores Cover" then the model would be allowed to take a cover save if it possessed one, or may take instead an invulnerable save if it possessed one. A weapon that has the Instant Death rule or is twice the target's toughness does not automatically ignore any saves; it only disallows Feel No Pain rolls.

[Arikel]

just remember there are caveats to this, in particular the impact of unsave-able instant death (2xT) wounds.

 

I think what is being aimed at here is a str 8 ap2 weapon being used against a str4 4+ sv type scenario where there would not be a cover save.

 

How ever back to the original post:

 

You need to share out all of the wounds inflicted on the squad, say for eg a guard vet squad with a melta and 5 lasguns fires at a combat squad of marines with a captain. The melta and 2 las guns hit. Now melta is AP1 ans str 8 so is insta death to a standard marine, however as your the controlling player of the wounded models you can choose to place the 1 melta hit on your captain because the iron halo will give the oppertunity to save.

 

Now say its a squad of 10 guard with a melta gun and 9 lasguns and they have been given "FRFSRF" order they are rapid firing so they are going to get more hits against the squad of marines. This time the marines take 12 las and 2 melta. Each marine including the captain would take 2 lasgun hits, you can then decide to put 1 melta hit on the captain and try to save it, or allocate them both to normal marines knowing that the 2 lasgun wounds are then irrelevant as the 2 marines will be dead.

 

As to what type of save you use... You will always use the best available, so if your armour is 3+ use that, unless AP 3 weapon negates it, then if you got a cover save you use that! But either the whole squad is in cover or not. The only time this is different is if your being shot at by 2 different AP weapons and 1 negates your armour, then you can use the cover save on that 1 and your best save on the rest, for the Orks this will pretty much always be the cover save!

 

Actually here you have a total of 14 wounds and 6 models. This means That each model will take at least two wounds, and some will take 3. Assuming the marines are all the same, you can assign both melta hits to the captain, or both melta hits on the marine group. You don't have to separate the melta hits out to different targets. Of course if you assign both hits to the marines, then 2 models die with no save as you don't have cover, however if you assign both to the captain and he fails both saves, only the captain dies, the extra failed save for melta does not spill over to the marine group.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Each model wounded uses "their" best save. This can be a mix of Armour, Cover, or Invulnerable throughout the squad. Mix and match to your heart's content.

Wow, wait. I thought you only got to use one save throughout the unit against the shooting from one enemy unit? E.g only cover, only armour, etc?

[thade]

Each model wounded uses "their" best save. This can be a mix of Armour, Cover, or Invulnerable throughout the squad. Mix and match to your heart's content.

Wow, wait. I thought you only got to use one save throughout the unit against the shooting from one enemy unit? E.g only cover, only armour, etc?

No, it's definitely per model. <3 Welcome to the next level!

[Something Wycked]

Its always fascinating to me what rules we read/remember accurately and which we don't. It happens to me all the time, but its always different rules than the ones other people misremember.

 

Thats a big part of what makes this place so special for me; here we have enough people who are familiar enough with the various aspects of the rules that we can combine our knowledge and we all come out with more on the other side than we came in with.

 

You guys rock. ;)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Each model wounded uses "their" best save. This can be a mix of Armour, Cover, or Invulnerable throughout the squad. Mix and match to your heart's content.

Wow, wait. I thought you only got to use one save throughout the unit against the shooting from one enemy unit? E.g only cover, only armour, etc?

No, it's definitely per model. <3 Welcome to the next level!

I'm going to have to ask for a citation. I can't find it myself, neither under saves nor saves with complex unit, or even under units with more than one save.

[Frosty the Pyro]

pg 24, models with more than one save.

 

note the word model is used universaly except were talking about cover (as cover is applied to whole units)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Point conceeded, objections withdrawn.

 

Thank you. ^_^

[thade]

Frosty beat me to this by a long shot. :lol:

 

OT: Yea, it's embarrassing how many times I've read the rules and how often I'm looked to as the "rules guy" only to frequently make small mistakes and learn something new and nit picky each week on these boards.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

During 4th ed 40k and 6th ed Warhammer, I was the "Living Rulebook" for the local game club. They'd come ask me, in the middle of a game, for a rule, rather than look it up.

 

I eventually got them to shape up. :D