How should I equip my Vanguard?

[Evicerator]

So since coming back to 40K after a small 1 year break I have decided to take up a Blood Angels force. I've made 3x 10 man RAS with fists and flamers as well as 3 priests with LCs to start my army. I'll be adding a SG unit and Dante and/or librarian as HQ. I've been eying making a VV squad of 8 or so, but I'm hitting a wall with what I should run them with. I know that making them expensive is a no-no, but as I've never ran a VV squad before (in a DoA force, but also would like ideas if I were to run razor-spam mech army just to diversify.) I like to magnetize my units as much as I can so that I can change weapons when needed without having to paint extra marines, just weapons.

 

I like the idea of lightning claws, but am unsure if they're better than power weapons. Should I incorporate a few Storm Shields as well? Power fists?

 

Thanks for the help.

[JamesI]

There are a lot of opinions on this. Some will say to keep them cheap, no more than 1 upgrade per model and several with no upgrades for taking hits.

 

Others say gear them up. Lots of stuff, storm shields, lightning claws, fists everywhere.

 

Personally, I tend towards the first group. When I run Vanguard, its usually 6-7 models, 1 with a power weapon, 1 with a fist, 1 with a hammer. Add a few meltabombs to taste. My experience says whenever I run them with only 1 fist/hammer, Iregret it and wish I had the second.

 

I personally don't use storm shields, those points add up really fast.

[thade]

Here's my default load out formula. <3

• No more than one upgrade per model, be it a weapon or a shield: dual weapons on a model is very expensive for a single wound WS4 guy.
  
• For each guy in the squad with a weapon upgrade, at least one guy with either a storm shield only or no upgrades at all.
  
• Bring at least one storm shield so somebody can hope to save that stray power fist/weapon attack.
  
• Take at least one S8 weapon on a squad member.
  

Have a plan for them, at least a general one. Do you want them as a vicious melee tarpit? Make sure they have at least two to three storm shields (keep in mind that a hidden power fist in another squad will likely do 1-2 wounds, 3 only if they're very, very lucky and get the charge) and enough non-upgraded marines to serve as "ablative wounds". You can cheat a bit on how many you take, but keep in mind the fewer models you have, the more saves each of them will have to take if they come under focus fire.

 

Jump Packs make them very expensive, especially with even a few upgrades...but the trade off is they get superior mobility that can't be taken away on a lucky lascannon shot and they can use HI + DoA to literally come to the rescue later in the game. DoA can either get them in faster or help stave them off a bit later as well as help you get them right where you need them to bail out whatever scoring unit of yours that needs saving. I recommend against using HI to send them in deep and alone...where they may kill one unit and will then die in a blaze of glory...burning away a tremendous amount of points for you.

 

Anyway, here are some example load outs that I've had success with:

 

What people call the "thade pattern" vanguard. Not to toot my own horn, but this is what I have most often run: Power Fist, 2-3 Lit Claws, 2-3 vanilla, 1-2 storm shields...typically filled to seven or eight strong. They don't take packs; they ride in a Land Raider, either LRC or LRR.

 

Marines that make Orks jealous. As many as I can fit in the list, either with jump packs or in a transport (Rhino is the budget option here)...one fist and otherwise no upgrades. On the charge a ten man vanguard will do 36 vanilla face punches. Along with my typical librarian or a chaplain for those re-rolls, that unit will pump out a LOT of S5 I5 pain. (You do have a Priest nearby, right? ;) )

 

Team Plasma. This is a recent experiment of mine that I've been enjoying, and it breaks a rule of mine (due to cost and a shortage of marine legs). Six vanguard vets. One with a power fist, plasma pistol. One with a power sword, plasma pistol. Three with plasma pistols. One vanilla. This unit rides in a LR close-range variant along with a Librarian in TDA/SS (S10, Re-roll attack powers) and a Sanguinary Priest in TDA (for lolz). The nice thing about this unit is that they can punch a Rhino open with all those S7 shots and deliver a surprising number of attacks on the charge (the one reason I appreciate taking a power sword over a lightning claw if ever I do...a power sword can do up to four wounds on a charge...a lightning claw never can...and the sword looks cooler in this case).

 

So...a smattering of random thoughts for you. I hope some of them are helpful. :D

 

EDIT: typo

[Deschenus Maximus]

I find it's too inefficient to cram a lot of offensive wargear on VV. Sang guard may have their drawbacks, but they are your best source of inexpensive-ish PW attacks.

 

So either

a) keep it cheap (1-2 fists, nothing else), or

:D use it as an anti-deathstar tarpit (all SS).

 

Option b is pretty useful in all-DoA list as one of the main weaknesses of that type of army is dealing with deathstars. On the flipside, even a 5-man squad thusly equipped is ridiculously expensive (5 man, JP, 1 fist, 5 SS: 275 pts).

 

I think I like option a better.

[Smendrik]

I planned to build my first five guys with JP, 2x Thunderhammer and Storm Shield, Sarge with E-Weapon and Stormshield, 2x 2 Lightning Claws and Melterbombs for everything that hasn't a S8 weapon..

 

On later projects I plan to "thin" them with some (mostly) cheap models. I just like the idea to strike down from the skies and smash anything ^_^

 

Have to say I'm no tournament player, though..

 

I know that 2 LCs might be overpriced for that one more attack, but one claw and the pistol just look weird in my eyes..

Two of them just look badass B)

[Brother_Byhlli]

DoA can either get them in faster or help stave them off a bit later as well as help you get them right where you need them to bail out whatever scoring unit of yours that needs saving.

 

I think this is a misinterpretation of the rules: you cannot reroll a successful reserves roll. The Descent of Angels special rule specifically says "can reroll failed reserve rolls". If you're using the rule to reroll successful rolls and delay your unit's arrival, you're doing it wrong.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Jump Packs make them very expensive, especially with even a few upgrades...but the trade off is they get superior mobility that can't be taken away on a lucky lascannon shot and they can use HI + DoA to literally come to the rescue later in the game. DoA can either get them in faster or help stave them off a bit later as well as help you get them right where you need them to bail out whatever scoring unit of yours that needs saving. I recommend against using HI to send them in deep and alone...where they may kill one unit and will then die in a blaze of glory...burning away a tremendous amount of points for you.

 

I actually quite like the idea of using them in transports. I'd never considered it before as an option. I think in a mechanised list, my fast attack slots are pretty much spoken for, but I can see it working in a hybrid list, definitely.

 

Thanks for the thought!

[AbusePuppy]

The main reason to use VV is because of Heroic Intervention- if you're just looking for a killy combat unit, Sanguinary Guard, Assault Terminators, Honor Guard, and Death Company are all probably better choices; they're variously cheaper, more effective, more survivable, etc. The basic VV is just a sarge with options, which isn't that impressive on its own. If you really want to throw them in a transport and send them into the fray you can, and it's not awful, but you could be doing quite a bit better.

 

Now, when they're dropping out of the sky to ruin someone's day is when they really shine. This is mostly a tactic for Deep Strike lists, who have problems with getting shot up a lot the turn they arrive- VV provide them with an effective way to get rid of strong enemy shooting or combat units preemptively, before they are a problem. The favored setups here are either 5man or 10man squad, splitting into Combat Squads on arrival if 10man, with each five guys getting roughly one Power Fist, one Power Weapon, and 1-2 Storm Shields. This keeps the squad from getting too ridiculously expensive (though it's certainly not cheap, to be sure) and gives them a good potential to murder most shooty units they encounter as well as hold up a big unit like an MC or Dreadnought (both of which can be disastrous for jump armies.)

 

However, the point about not sending them in alone is very valid; they absolutely cannot be expected to take on the enemy army by themselves. Just like any other unit in the codex, if you leave them unsupported, they will die, but if you back them up properly, they can win games.

 

(Oh, and the "golden distance" for Heroic Intervention is 4"-5" from the enemy you want to assault, which results in the maximum chances of getting an assault off while minimizing your chance to mishap. Such a placement gives them ~75% chance to drop in and rock faces, with a roughly equal split of the remainder between "dead on arrival" and "left in the open," although usually the two are effectively the same thing.)

[Brother_Byhlli]

The main reason to use VV is because of Heroic Intervention- if you're just looking for a killy combat unit, Sanguinary Guard, Assault Terminators, Honor Guard, and Death Company are all probably better choices; they're variously cheaper, more effective, more survivable, etc. The basic VV is just a sarge with options, which isn't that impressive on its own. If you really want to throw them in a transport and send them into the fray you can, and it's not awful, but you could be doing quite a bit better.

 

Depending on the points level you're playing, Vanguard Veterans offer you something that Sanguinary Guard and Honour Guard don't - the option of a squad of ten Space Marines.

 

You make the point that they're "just a sarge with options", but what are Honour Guard and Sanguinary Guard if not exactly that? The most directly comparable unit I can think of is Death Company, and we all know the problem with them: rage. Well, Vanguard Veterans can conceivably be run as Death Company without rage. Or Death Company-lite, if you prefer, since we're all aware they lack slightly in the WS department.

 

They're more versatile than Terminators, more controllable than Death Company and better-suited to creating a large killing squad than Honour Guard or Sanguinary Guard.

[knife&fork]

I think they should be played aggressively and focus on killing infantry. We have plenty of other ways to take care of armor; dreads, speeders, Honor guard, bikes etc.

Any opponent with half a brain will be moving his vehicles around anyway. Spending more than 200 pts on a unit that hit on sixes is a waste.

 

I take a minimal squad with 2 claws (on two models) and 3 pw, couple of melta bombs if you can afford them. Melta bombs can be used to pop tanks your opponent has forgotten to move or give the unit a fighting chance vs walkers. A unit like this will average 5 wounds on arrival vs MEQ, even without furious charge.

[Brother Nathan]

also you have the joy of being able to give them different weapons. for mine im aiming for 5 men

1 lightening claw

1 thunderhammer

1 powerweapon

1 stormsheild

1 regular guy

 

means you have guys enough to hurt the things you need to throw them at(devs and the like) but not enough to wipe them on the charge so you can remain locked till the opponents turn so you dont get shot up. and weapon options enough to hurt most anything from orks to marines to tanks and dreads and deamonprinces. course they take any of those on their own they will likely not survive but they auta make them weak enough so that your other units can shread them with relative ease... sheilds there for fist and plasma etc, regular guy for regular weapons fire to protect the specials for a bit too. plus its nice to have each vetern look different and be unique to model...

[knife&fork]

also you have the joy of being able to give them different weapons. for mine im aiming for 5 men

1 lightening claw

1 thunderhammer

1 powerweapon

1 stormsheild

1 regular guy

 

means you have guys enough to hurt the things you need to throw them at(devs and the like) but not enough to wipe them on the charge so you can remain locked till the opponents turn so you dont get shot up.

 

IMHO, with a small and expensive unit you don't want to stay locked in combat, staying locked in means risking more casualties. Use target saturation, cover (often the things you want to kill are already standing in it) and consolidation moves to your advantage.

 

Let's say you don't wipe a unit, still doesn't guarantee safety. If you didn't win the combat your VVs are probably in way over their heads. If you won, and the enemy unit fails that LD test you'll either sweep them or they'll break away and they (along with everything else nearby) can most likely shoot at you in the following turn.

[Volcatus]

I utilize mine in the HI role.

 

Sgt - SS/Glaive

TH/SS

3 BP/CS

 

Like Brother Nathan, my aim is to finish off backline units in my opponents turn. Additionally, they intercept rocks (termies, pups, etc.) and hold them long enough for me to setup an appropriate counter-charge with a lot of bodies.

 

Since my list has VV, HG, and SG, I have a lot of flexibility and options when it comes to handling threats. VV provide for my list what the other 2 do not: HI and tar pit.

[Taz]

I'm sure people will tell you that I'm doing it wrong, but I wanted to make a vanguard that's going to make my opponent groan when they hit the table.

Five man squad

Jump packs

LCx4

SSx5

Thunderhammer on sergeant

Garnish with meltabombs to taste

At 340 (before meltabombs) points the unit is indeed pricey and small, as well as completely lacking in range game. However it's going to be able to crack regular terminators and special characters wide open, and I've never been particularly interested in shooting with VV. I'm going to use these guys to (hopefully) drop in with my army and attack the biggest threat to my other deepstriking units, especially if there's a vicious melee unit around I don't want to get the charge.

[AbusePuppy]

Depending on the points level you're playing, Vanguard Veterans offer you something that Sanguinary Guard and Honour Guard don't - the option of a squad of ten Space Marines.

 

You make the point that they're "just a sarge with options", but what are Honour Guard and Sanguinary Guard if not exactly that? The most directly comparable unit I can think of is Death Company, and we all know the problem with them: rage. Well, Vanguard Veterans can conceivably be run as Death Company without rage. Or Death Company-lite, if you prefer, since we're all aware they lack slightly in the WS department.

 

They're more versatile than Terminators, more controllable than Death Company and better-suited to creating a large killing squad than Honour Guard or Sanguinary Guard.

 

SG and HG are limited to the regular five bodies, but considering the former has a 2+ armor save and the latter has FNP built right in, they usually end up being similar or better survivability than SG. Honor Guard can take Meltaguns, Flamers, and Plasmaguns- VV can't get any of those things. Sanguine Guard come with much better basic equipment than VV can get and have options for cheap Power Fists, Infernus Pistols, and have superior shooting. Both of them serve very different roles than VV do because of their unique capabilities. I simply don't find the need to create very large squad of guys with power weapons because that's just overkill- if the first fifteen PW attacks don't do the job, you're engaging the enemy with the wrong kind of unit.

 

VV are good at what they do- dropping in and solving a problem. Using them to do other jobs is usually inefficient because you're paying points for Heroic Intervention and the ability to take weapon options; this makes them flexible but very pricey, especially if you aren't taking advantage of their abilities. As I said, if you're in love with the unit and want to use it in a transport/etc, that's fine, but it's good to understand that this is far from an optimal role for them, as other units do that job better.

 

(I'm not sure why you think they're "more versatile than Terminators," as regular Shootynators are, in many ways, better in CC and better at shooting, albeit for a larger cost, and Assault Termies are undeniably better in CC, even point-for-point for when considering transport capacity limitations.)

 

I'm sure people will tell you that I'm doing it wrong, but I wanted to make a vanguard that's going to make my opponent groan when they hit the table.

Five man squad

Jump packs

LCx4

SSx5

Thunderhammer on sergeant

Garnish with meltabombs to taste

At 340 (before meltabombs) points the unit is indeed pricey and small, as well as completely lacking in range game. However it's going to be able to crack regular terminators and special characters wide open, and I've never been particularly interested in shooting with VV. I'm going to use these guys to (hopefully) drop in with my army and attack the biggest threat to my other deepstriking units, especially if there's a vicious melee unit around I don't want to get the charge.

 

The problem I see with setups like this is that you will (usually) come in, absolutely murder one unit, and then get shot to pieces because you invested a huge number of points into five guys with 3+ saves. Yeah, they've got Storm Shields, that's nice, they will still fail just as many saves to Autocannons, Bolters, Multilasers, Splinter Cannons, etc. And if you mishap, fail a charge, or roll poorly (still only WS4, after all), 1/5 or 1/6 of your army is just sitting there looking stupid, ready to get gunned down.

 

Overinvestment into a single unit is why armies like Nob Bikerz and Tyrantstar, while scary at first glance, end up being fairly easy to defeat. Those 340pts could've bought you almost two full 10man Assault squads, which would have been more resilient and probably more dangerous in combat as well, especially if there's a Priest around.

[Taz]

The problem I see with setups like this is that you will (usually) come in, absolutely murder one unit, and then get shot to pieces because you invested a huge number of points into five guys with 3+ saves. Yeah, they've got Storm Shields, that's nice, they will still fail just as many saves to Autocannons, Bolters, Multilasers, Splinter Cannons, etc. And if you mishap, fail a charge, or roll poorly (still only WS4, after all), 1/5 or 1/6 of your army is just sitting there looking stupid, ready to get gunned down.

 

Overinvestment into a single unit is why armies like Nob Bikerz and Tyrantstar, while scary at first glance, end up being fairly easy to defeat. Those 340pts could've bought you almost two full 10man Assault squads, which would have been more resilient and probably more dangerous in combat as well, especially if there's a Priest around.

 

Maybe. Hell, probably. Chances are though I'll already have my troop slots filled to my liking before I even look at filling out a VV unit. Like I said I wanted to make them to crack tougher units, so if they go in there and murder their way out in that same turn, chances are they'll already have made their points back, and if my opponent wants to focus fire on them the next turn, then that's shooting that's not going toward my troops, who will likely also have jump packs and probably a IC or two in tow. It'd take quite a bit too, since I do enjoy keeping priests handy. Stopping key charges and/or shooting from hitting units that are more or less sitting ducks the turn they come in; that's the whole purpose of VV in my army so even if they get wiped out I still have a few other units in relative position to spring into action after they're finished. I mean, it IS 1/5 of my army, but I've still got another 4/5s to work with. Plus, come on! Drop turn-charging assaulters full of scary weapons. Dropping mean units like that via deep strike is one of my greatest pleasures as a BA player. Even if nothing goes to plan and my VV mishap and my opponent decides to put them in the far corner of the table and then nuke them it'd still be a laugh after I'm done losing.

Your points are entirely valid, but sometimes playing to the numbers just isn't as fun. :lol:

[thade]

DoA can either get them in faster or help stave them off a bit later as well as help you get them right where you need them to bail out whatever scoring unit of yours that needs saving.

 

I think this is a misinterpretation of the rules: you cannot reroll a successful reserves roll. The Descent of Angels special rule specifically says "can reroll failed reserve rolls". If you're using the rule to reroll successful rolls and delay your unit's arrival, you're doing it wrong.

I don't remember seeing the word "failed" in there, but if you are correct (and I assume you are) then this is in fact a misinterpretation. It's too bad; delaying is very useful.

[JamesI]

DoA can either get them in faster or help stave them off a bit later as well as help you get them right where you need them to bail out whatever scoring unit of yours that needs saving.

 

I think this is a misinterpretation of the rules: you cannot reroll a successful reserves roll. The Descent of Angels special rule specifically says "can reroll failed reserve rolls". If you're using the rule to reroll successful rolls and delay your unit's arrival, you're doing it wrong.

I don't remember seeing the word "failed" in there, but if you are correct (and I assume you are) then this is in fact a misinterpretation. It's too bad; delaying is very useful.

Sorry, Thade. Its in there. I would love to be able to reroll successes sometimes, but we can't.

[Evicerator]

Thanks for all of the great info and replies everyone.

 

It's given me a good deal of perspective on how I should play VV units. Just didn't feel comfortable with slapping weapons on them randomly (as I like to play competitive, but not min/max).

 

Got a lot of painting ahead of me ;_;

[Brother Nathan]

also you have the joy of being able to give them different weapons. for mine im aiming for 5 men

1 lightening claw

1 thunderhammer

1 powerweapon

1 stormsheild

1 regular guy

 

means you have guys enough to hurt the things you need to throw them at(devs and the like) but not enough to wipe them on the charge so you can remain locked till the opponents turn so you dont get shot up.

 

IMHO, with a small and expensive unit you don't want to stay locked in combat, staying locked in means risking more casualties. Use target saturation, cover (often the things you want to kill are already standing in it) and consolidation moves to your advantage.

 

Let's say you don't wipe a unit, still doesn't guarantee safety. If you didn't win the combat your VVs are probably in way over their heads. If you won, and the enemy unit fails that LD test you'll either sweep them or they'll break away and they (along with everything else nearby) can most likely shoot at you in the following turn.

true in a way, but im more thinking most wolve lists for example have more than one longfang deployed near enough to cover and share terrain but not close enough to multicharge. i dont want to wipe one out on the charge and get shot to ribbons as likely a consolidation move willl not be enough to get me to safety, if i kill all bar one guy then im good for killing him in the opponents turn and then going after the other. also might make the opponent have to move the other squad and therefore forgo its shooting to possibly give it a chance to live... and if it pulls in greyhunters etc then ive succesfully distracted another unit or 2 out of my opponents main battle line and made it even easier for the rest of my army. no its not going to be perfect but no stratagy is or ever will be...

[Brother_Byhlli]

Call me crazy, but what do you think of this idea?

 

What would happen if you took the bare minimum requirements in terms of HQ and Troops (jump pack Librarian, two five-man Assault Squads with a meltagun and a power fist) and then just filled up your Fast Attack slots with Vanguard Veterans? Instead of having one unit to tie up an enemy long-range support unit, what would happen if you had six units dropping from the sky and going straight into combat...?

 

Actually, the more I think of it, the more stupid it seems. But that doesn't mean it's not worthy of discussion...!

[AbusePuppy]

Same problem as otherwise- you're spending a lot of points on expensive guys; VV are overkill against a lot of targets and are no tougher than any other unit. You can spend ~1500pts on 30 VV dudes, but I'd rather have 40-50 ASM and Dev backup for them.

 

Some armies would hate you. Some armies would love you. But more the latte than the former, I think. The marginal utility of VV decreases as you bring more of them, because you have fewer "good" landing spots and assault targets.

[Brother_Byhlli]

But more the latte than the former, I think.

 

 

Mmm... coffee....

 

The marginal utility of VV decreases as you bring more of them, because you have fewer "good" landing spots and assault targets.

 

That's a valid point, I guess.

[thade]

The marginal utility of VV decreases as you bring more of them, because you have fewer "good" landing spots and assault targets.

That's a valid point, I guess.

Only insofar as HI, which I seldom use myself. Vanguard in a transport of any variety (esp. a LR) can be very useful. I dig em.

[knife&fork]

Only insofar as HI, which I seldom use myself. Vanguard in a transport of any variety (esp. a LR) can be very useful. I dig em.

 

While vanguard can (almost) be the veteran assault squad we no longer have, taking death company if you don't want to make use of HI makes more sense.