Galileo Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I've read Soul Hunter and the short story on Hammer & Bolter (where BA also get spanked pretty bad), but no Blood reaver yet. The only issue I have with SH is that the Talon guy and his bunch got too much steroids: ok he's the hero, but even so, he takes down (SPOILER) an imperial battleship, a warhound titan, an imperial assassin (flashback), a truckload of mechanicum troopers, and a bunch of Blood Angels (forgot anything?), with just a scratch or two in return. Oh and while at it, he also humiliates Abaddon himself a couple of times, first in the orbital battle where the night lords 1 vessel arrives and in a few minutes kicks to pieces the imperial fleet that had made the Despoiler ships struggle, and then when he defiantly refuses Abaddon's offer to join the Black Legion (and he's so cool that he doesnt even get flayed or something for that). What i've found interesting, though, is the hint (during the NL Vs BA fight at the end of the book) that loyalist marines are inferior to the original traitors from the Heresy times not only because less experienced, but also because their bloodline has been somewhat watered down, after a few millennia of copypasting geneseed without primarchs. But all in all, keep it going ADB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 What i've found interesting, though, is the hint (during the NL Vs BA fight at the end of the book) that loyalist marines are inferior to the original traitors from the Heresy times not only because less experienced, but also because their bloodline has been somewhat watered down, after a few millennia of copypasting geneseed without primarchs. Dont take that as gospel though - it could equally simply be an extension of the NL's own opinion, not necessarily based on fact. You'd have to ask Mr D-B about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 I've read Soul Hunter and the short story on Hammer & Bolter (where BA also get spanked pretty bad), but no Blood reaver yet. The only issue I have with SH is that the Talon guy and his bunch got too much steroids: ok he's the hero, but even so, he takes down (SPOILER) an imperial battleship, a warhound titan, an imperial assassin (flashback), a truckload of mechanicum troopers, and a bunch of Blood Angels (forgot anything?), with just a scratch or two in return. yes, as a BA fan, reading about how NL mop the floor with BA (sustaining relatively light casualties in return) can be a tad annoying, but Chaos fans have had to endure plenty of spankings in loyalist novels Bowden's writing is still solid and generally more entertaining than 90% of the BL stuff out there. My fave is still good ol' Dan Abnett despite Prospero Burns In the NL series, the NL grudgingly respect the prowess of the BA, but in the actual battle, Talos (with his BA relic sword) really does make them look quite bad (but that's typical of protagonists, really) and of course, Malcharion is described as having single-handedly defeated three loyalist champions at the Battle of Terra...these details arouse the ire of my inner fanboy, but I'm still able to enjoy Bowden's work because of the quality of writing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkfish Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Read Blood Reaver then - it shows that the Blood Angels did do a lot of damage before being repulsed. As for Malcharion, he is portrayed as being what Danny Dyer would call, a bit naughty. So in other words, he's probably one of the Night Lords' pre-eminent champions at the time of the Heresy. Lets not forget that at the time of defeating the loyalist champs, he may have had the advantage of Chaos gifts, or he may simply have been less fatigued. He might even have got the drop on them. Oh, and I think it's Dembski-Bowden. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I've read Soul Hunter and the short story on Hammer & Bolter (where BA also get spanked pretty bad), but no Blood reaver yet. The only issue I have with SH is that the Talon guy and his bunch got too much steroids: ok he's the hero, but even so, he takes down (SPOILER) an imperial battleship, a warhound titan, an imperial assassin (flashback), a truckload of mechanicum troopers, and a bunch of Blood Angels (forgot anything?), with just a scratch or two in return. Oh and while at it, he also humiliates Abaddon himself a couple of times, first in the orbital battle where the night lords 1 vessel arrives and in a few minutes kicks to pieces the imperial fleet that had made the Despoiler ships struggle, and then when he defiantly refuses Abaddon's offer to join the Black Legion (and he's so cool that he doesnt even get flayed or something for that). This. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 16, 2011 Author Share Posted September 16, 2011 Read Blood Reaver then - it shows that the Blood Angels did do a lot of damage before being repulsed. I have, I even posted the exact quote: Night Lords casualties from Bloodreaver: “I’ve done a soul count myself. The Blood Angels butchered over a hundred of the crew, and almost thirty of our warriors.” almost 30 NL died 6 BA drop pods made it to the ship. 1 of the pods contained a BA dreadnought, so 5 pods worth of BA marines died. Each pod carried 12 marines. 60 BA marines died...fewer than 30 NL marines died. I'm OK with this because the NL had a big advantage as the defenders, but the NL inflicted A LOT of damage to the BA in return Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Read Blood Reaver then - it shows that the Blood Angels did do a lot of damage before being repulsed. I have, I even posted the exact quote: Night Lords casualties from Bloodreaver: “I’ve done a soul count myself. The Blood Angels butchered over a hundred of the crew, and almost thirty of our warriors.” almost 30 NL died 6 BA drop pods made it to the ship. 1 of the pods contained a BA dreadnought, so 5 pods worth of BA marines died. Each pod carried 12 marines. 60 BA marines died...fewer than 30 NL marines died. I'm OK with this because the NL had a big advantage as the defenders, but the NL inflicted A LOT of damage to the BA in return Okay, but where's your logic that each pod contained 12 warriors? Plus, they weren't pods, they were boarding torpedoes. Judging from the initial fight, I'd wager that there were only 5 Angels per pod; meaning that they killed 100% of who they fought. Yeah, sorry that the main protagonist wiped the first unit they encountered in an ambush. Seems ridiculous that they wouldn't. I feel that the book definitely portrayed the BA in a good light, hell, everyone of frightened to death of 600 Blood Angels! The loyalists didn't even outnumber the traitors by a lot and they were scared enough to cut and run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share Posted September 17, 2011 Okay, but where's your logic that each pod contained 12 warriors? Plus, they weren't pods, they were boarding torpedoes. Judging from the initial fight, I'd wager that there were only 5 Angels per pod they were called "boarding pods" in the book. I assumed they had the same capacity as drop pods because a drop pod is able to hold 1 dreadnought (or 12 marines) and one of the boarding pods held a BA dreadnought. Assuming that the boarding pods were uniform in size, I'd say each boarding pod held 12 marines) Yeah, sorry that the main protagonist wiped the first unit they encountered in an ambush. Seems ridiculous that they wouldn't. no need to apologise because I never objected to a successful ambush led by the main protagonist. I was pointing out that the NL suffered roughly half the casualties of the BA, but your 5 Angels per pod figure could be right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummingBerserker21 Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Soul Hunter portrays the Blood Angels in a much better light, according to when they first launch boarding pods, the Exalted warns the Night Lords of Covenant, "All claws, this is the Exalted. Between twenty and forty Blood Angels have breached us with assault pods. Hull impact locations are routed to squad leaders. Find the loyalists, my brothers. Kill them.” So when the BA still take out 30 marines and 100 personnel even when ambushed? I'd say that is a dang good showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Jesus Christ, some of this is absolute nonsense. ...an imperial battleship... Mwuh? A boarding squad of elite soldiers take a warship's bridge, and fight through a panicking, untrained crew in a few corridors. That's what those squads are for. Military fiction and sci-fi is replete with such examples. ...a warhound titan... Uh, no. A Thunderhawk, a Land Raider and a squad of Chaos Marines with melta bombs take out a Warhound Titan. Nothing particularly unusual there. You could even argue they pretty much outgunned the poor thing. an imperial assassin (flashback)... A wounded assassin. ...a truckload of mechanicum troopers... That's not a big deal. The galaxy's best soldiers are hardly going to struggle against soldiers who can't hold a candle to them. ...and a bunch of Blood Angels (forgot anything?)... I think you mean "a single squad of Night Lords and a dreanought, attacking from ambush with the advantage of surprise" take out "a single squad of Blood Angels and a dreadnought, who are much less well-equipped than the Night Lords ambushing them". And even then, one of the Night Lords dies, the dreadnought dies, and two of the others are so wounded they can't do anything but drag themselves across the floor. Oh and while at it, he also humiliates Abaddon himself a couple of times, first in the orbital battle where the night lords 1 vessel arrives and in a few minutes kicks to pieces the imperial fleet that had made the Despoiler ships struggle ...which has nothing to do with the main character at all. That was the Exalted, not Talos. It's also not true, the Despoiler's ships weren't struggling. The Exalted just rushed things along because that was his specialty. They don't "kick to pieces the Imperial fleet" at all. They target a few of the main ships and launch boarding parties. and then when he defiantly refuses Abaddon's offer to join the Black Legion (and he's so cool that he doesnt even get flayed or something for that). No. Abaddon just doesn't really care. It's even said later that: 1. He doesn't care, that's why it's not a big deal to him, and 2. That he was doing it as a favour to the Exalted. Honestly, those are complaints? 99% of them are nonsense, or specifically incorrect as stated in the novel. Talos, like most Night Lords, hardly ever enters a fight without the advantage of terrain, or numbers, or equipment, or some psychological advantage. Most people tend to see that fairly easily, but there are always a few that miss the nuances, or assume that because their fave faction has lost, that it's automatically some humiliating defeat and the main character is therefore unrealistic. The truth is much simpler. Compare Talos's achievements and battles with characters from pretty much any other Space Marine or Chaos Marine novel series or codex entry, and you'll see a character who's much less badass and uber than almost any other named character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 The lesson to be learnt here is probably not to argue about fluff when the creator of said fluff frequents the forum. Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I've read Soul Hunter and the short story on Hammer & Bolter (where BA also get spanked pretty bad), but no Blood reaver yet. The only issue I have with SH is that the Talon guy and his bunch got too much steroids: ok he's the hero, but even so, he takes down (SPOILER) an imperial battleship, a warhound titan, an imperial assassin (flashback), a truckload of mechanicum troopers, and a bunch of Blood Angels (forgot anything?), with just a scratch or two in return. Oh and while at it, he also humiliates Abaddon himself a couple of times, first in the orbital battle where the night lords 1 vessel arrives and in a few minutes kicks to pieces the imperial fleet that had made the Despoiler ships struggle, and then when he defiantly refuses Abaddon's offer to join the Black Legion (and he's so cool that he doesnt even get flayed or something for that). This. ^^ ...is all painfully, even embarrassingly inaccurate and hyperbolic. The lesson to be learnt here is probably not to argue about fluff when the creator of said fluff frequents the forum. Darkchild I'm all for arguing and debating, though. I think the lesson is to get it right, and not make stuff up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I've read Soul Hunter and the short story on Hammer & Bolter (where BA also get spanked pretty bad), but no Blood reaver yet. The only issue I have with SH is that the Talon guy and his bunch got too much steroids: ok he's the hero, but even so, he takes down (SPOILER) an imperial battleship, a warhound titan, an imperial assassin (flashback), a truckload of mechanicum troopers, and a bunch of Blood Angels (forgot anything?), with just a scratch or two in return. Oh and while at it, he also humiliates Abaddon himself a couple of times, first in the orbital battle where the night lords 1 vessel arrives and in a few minutes kicks to pieces the imperial fleet that had made the Despoiler ships struggle, and then when he defiantly refuses Abaddon's offer to join the Black Legion (and he's so cool that he doesnt even get flayed or something for that). This. ^^ ...is all painfully, even embarrassingly inaccurate and hyperbolic. Not to mention that damn near all of it was taken out of context and did not include appropriate descriptions of the situation/senario for each of them. /Ventris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I'm all for arguing and debating, though. I think the lesson is to get it right, and not make stuff up. But isnt it your job to make things up??? In a good way of course (PS: start writing a BA book, Armageddon 2 or maybe Makan IV - where Abbadon takes out the 9th Company? Dont evne mind if the BA's dont win that one, as long as you write it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 The lesson to be learnt here is probably not to argue about fluff when the creator of said fluff frequents the forum. Darkchild Why not? Those discussions are imo the best. In the best case the author can defend his point of view, in the worst case ( and gods there are truly some sucky BL works that not even a loving mother could coherently defend :huh: ) the poor author gets torn to shreds, but such is the risk if you publish your books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 The lesson to be learnt here is probably not to argue about fluff when the creator of said fluff frequents the forum. Darkchild Why not? Those discussions are imo the best. In the best case the author can defend his point of view, in the worst case ( and gods there are truly some sucky BL works that not even a loving mother could coherently defend :huh: ) the poor author gets torn to shreds, but such is the risk if you publish your books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I've read Soul Hunter and the short story on Hammer & Bolter (where BA also get spanked pretty bad), but no Blood reaver yet. The only issue I have with SH is that the Talon guy and his bunch got too much steroids: ok he's the hero, but even so, he takes down (SPOILER) an imperial battleship, a warhound titan, an imperial assassin (flashback), a truckload of mechanicum troopers, and a bunch of Blood Angels (forgot anything?), with just a scratch or two in return. Oh and while at it, he also humiliates Abaddon himself a couple of times, first in the orbital battle where the night lords 1 vessel arrives and in a few minutes kicks to pieces the imperial fleet that had made the Despoiler ships struggle, and then when he defiantly refuses Abaddon's offer to join the Black Legion (and he's so cool that he doesnt even get flayed or something for that). This. ^^ ...is all painfully, even embarrassingly inaccurate and hyperbolic. Yeah, I've just read them both and don't seem to recall Talos DDT-ing a Warhound Titan single handedly - admittedly, it would be awesome if he did mind you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I've read Soul Hunter and the short story on Hammer & Bolter (where BA also get spanked pretty bad), but no Blood reaver yet. The only issue I have with SH is that the Talon guy and his bunch got too much steroids: ok he's the hero, but even so, he takes down (SPOILER) an imperial battleship, a warhound titan, an imperial assassin (flashback), a truckload of mechanicum troopers, and a bunch of Blood Angels (forgot anything?), with just a scratch or two in return. Oh and while at it, he also humiliates Abaddon himself a couple of times, first in the orbital battle where the night lords 1 vessel arrives and in a few minutes kicks to pieces the imperial fleet that had made the Despoiler ships struggle, and then when he defiantly refuses Abaddon's offer to join the Black Legion (and he's so cool that he doesnt even get flayed or something for that). This. ^^ ...is all painfully, even embarrassingly inaccurate and hyperbolic. Yeah, I've just read them both and don't seem to recall Talos DDT-ing a Warhound Titan single handedly - admittedly, it would be awesome if he did mind you... Meh, no it wouldn't. The the current NL books are, at least in my opinion, pretty sucessful at finding a good balance between depicting their characters as competent and avoiding the all too common marty stu territory where so many other BL book characters find themselfs stranded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Everytime this whole "Talos is overpowered" thing comes up, it just confuses the hell out of me. The guy's cool and all but he's a bit of an idiot. He's wandering around with this blinkered view of his legion, holding on to some phantom notion of nobility when most of his battle brothers are lunatics. He courts this role of leadership and yet doesn't want to face up to his responsibilities. Come on, the guy spends a good chunk of blood reaver trying to get a legion ship back.....for the cost of their current ship. Talos is my 40k Malus Darkblade. I love him to bits but he's an absolute tit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 The lesson to be learnt here is probably not to argue about fluff when the creator of said fluff frequents the forum. Darkchild Why not? Those discussions are imo the best. In the best case the author can defend his point of view, in the worst case ( and gods there are truly some sucky BL works that not even a loving mother could coherently defend ;) ) the poor author gets torn to shreds, but such is the risk if you publish your books. Because any author worth his salt knows his fluff inside and out. Any author not like that would get slaughtered by pedontic fans like us. Any author like that would likely not bother posting on forums like this. I have concluded that to argue against ADB about ADB's fluff is tantamount to punching yourself in the face. I'm not brown nosing (though I love his work :) ), I'm sure if the topic of Close quarters battle and section/squad level tactics came up I could give him an education, because it's my job. But in the context of a forum about his own work, I wouldn't even bother. I'd just get made to look stupid. Like Galileo. Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khavos Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Speaking as a neutral party, I can say that the Blood Angels came off just fine. That in and of itself is a victory for the Blood Angels, of course; a group of Italian, nipple-loving painters fought a bunch of guys best described as "Batman meets the Manson family," and didn't end up looking terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I think the most interesting part about how badass BAs are is how they were treated by NL (and other Chaos) before they arrived! There is a huge build up and the fact that they come early is a source of panic for every one on the Chaos side... This alone positions BAs as an (in)credible threat and a fearsome force even for the most veteran and seasoned troops in the Galaxy... When two SM forces are clashing one wins and one loses. In this case one knows beforehand the NL will make it. It's a NL story after all. If BAs win, well, this is litteraly the "end of story". But how narrow and costly this victory was is another way to establish BA badassery. NL are decimated in the process as is evident in the "Blood Reaver". Again one has to keep in mind it's a clash between two equals and in some ways NLs could be seen as more expirienced and more "deserving" of victory as they are veterans of the Siege of the Emperor's Palace after all. But none of this comes into play. BAs do their stuff and they are contained at huge cost. Also in the big picture BAs also seem to succeed in turning away the Chaos forces from the planet wholesale... So I think BAs are shown as a force NLs fear and that is saying something!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 2) it's a Night Lords novel, so of course they're going to look good (the same could be said for any book featuring a particular chapter/legion) (Except our own books ;) ) Okay, but where's your logic that each pod contained 12 warriors? Plus, they weren't pods, they were boarding torpedoes. Judging from the initial fight, I'd wager that there were only 5 Angels per pod Drop pods can only carry 10 marines ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf2.3 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 As the blood angels pods were coming in the Exalted put a guess on thier numbers that places them between 30 and 60 men that could have landed. Stating that the night lords waltzed over 60 of them ( when it couldn't possibly have been more than 50) is rubbish. I liked the way they were portrayed, one of them even makes Uzas look like a fool when he fails to kill him after chasing him down, Talos has to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 “All claws, this is the Exalted. Between twenty and forty Blood Angels have breached us with assault pods. Hull impact locations are routed to squad leaders. Find the loyalists, my brothers. Kill them.” I missed that, so the NL lost almost 30 (stated in Blood Reaver) and the BA lost between 20 and 40, my oversight the Exalted put a guess on their numbers that places them between 30 and 60 men that could have landed. "Between twenty and forty Blood Angels have breached us with assault pods." - Blood Reaver again, I overlooked that line when estimating, my mistake I thought the numbers were a bit skewed but still logically plausible, but as it turned out, my estimate was off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.