Halberd a 'must' on small units?

[Wicks]

Hey! I was wondering about making some smaller strike squads in razorbacks,what wargear do you recommend? :cuss

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I thought the whole point of fielding a lot of small units was to spam razorbacks and heavy weapons. If you put 3 or 4 halberds on each 5 man squad, and you do this for 5 squads, that's 100 points you spent on halberds. Which gets you most of the way to another squad.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you're doing MSU style small units, the only CC wepaon you want to consider is a Fist/Hammer.

 

As for Strikes, it's *never* worth givign them Halberds. ^_^

[Brother Captain Kezef]

If you're doing MSU style small units, the only CC wepaon you want to consider is a Fist/Hammer.

 

As for Strikes, it's *never* worth givign them Halberds. :woot:

 

Why not?

 

Not meant as a personal attack, but it's annoying to see these opinion pieces without the reasons behind them. It's not helpful to just state "X is crap, you need Y" without stating the reasons behind such a choice.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's a generalisation, as the given senario is a generalistion.

 

There's no more overview on list, tactics or desire for the army.

 

So, in the most vague and general way, it's really not worth spending 25% of the cost of the mini itself on making sure it's single attack goes at I6. On a unit with a WS4 and 1A.

 

As a more general explaination, it's not worth the points upgrading the CC potential of a unit that has 2 * S4 Shooting Attacks and 1 * S4 CC attack.

 

It's especially not worth upgrading a Strike CC capability when you plan to use a small squad in a MSU style of gameplay.

 

/shrug

[Brother Captain Kezef]

It's a generalisation, as the given senario is a generalistion.

 

There's no more overview on list, tactics or desire for the army.

 

So, in the most vague and general way, it's really not worth spending 25% of the cost of the mini itself on making sure it's single attack goes at I6. On a unit with a WS4 and 1A.

 

As a more general explaination, it's not worth the points upgrading the CC potential of a unit that has 2 * S4 Shooting Attacks and 1 * S4 CC attack.

 

It's especially not worth upgrading a Strike CC capability when you plan to use a small squad in a MSU style of gameplay.

 

/shrug

 

That's a more useful and explained assessment (one I happen to agree with).

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Now for a 10 man strong GKSS, it may not be a bad idea to put 3 halberds in there. Still expensive, still buffing troops in CC who are really mostly for shooting, but having a few I6 attacks may be the difference between winning and losing when charged by BA or DE or something....

 

Now with that said, whenever I get around to running GKSS, my large 10 man squad will probably only have a hammer, and 2 psycannons of course. I'd be much more likely to spend points on psybolts than a few halberds....

[breng77]

I fall solidly in the camp of "never" taking Halberds on Strike squads. They are too expensive for what you get in return, unless you happen to have 10-15 of points kicking around and nothing better to spend them on (which you usually do).

 

The issue with Halberds on Strike squads is that they are only 1 attack base. While it is nice to strike first consider that you need 4 S 4 Halberd attacks to average 1 wound on a marine (3 if you cast hammer hand). So you are looking at spending 15 - 20 points to average 1 wound at I 6. Hardly game breaking. As was said above if you include these 3 - 4 Halberds on 4-5 Squads you are looking at 60-100 points. On 5 man squads it is an even worse idea as you are maxing out at 3 (4 if you don't take a hammer)

 

If you want squads with Halberds spend the 1 additional point per model and get Purifiers.

[number6]

Now with that said, whenever I get around to running GKSS, my large 10 man squad will probably only have a hammer, and 2 psycannons of course. I'd be much more likely to spend points on psybolts than a few halberds....

This.

[Archon_77]

I struggle with GKSS in general... 100 pts + goodies ends up around 160-180 depending. Why not just go for the Termies at 200?

[jhrovii]

I struggle with GKSS in general... 100 pts + goodies ends up around 160-180 depending. Why not just go for the Termies at 200?

Why go Termies when you can Pallies?

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I struggle with GKSS in general... 100 pts + goodies ends up around 160-180 depending. Why not just go for the Termies at 200?

 

Termies cost 225, as you'd never leave home without a psycannon.

 

5 GKSS, with a psycannon and a Rhino is 150. That's a pretty large difference in points.

 

10 GKSS, with 2 psycannons and a Rhino is 260. Only 35 points more than the terminators. GKSS fire more bolter shots, fire more psycannon shots standing still and just as many on the move, and are more survivable on the account of their ride and higher body count. So unless you are planning on assaulting stuff, or spamming the field with 2+ armor, GKSS seem like the better bet.

[breng77]

I struggle with GKSS in general... 100 pts + goodies ends up around 160-180 depending. Why not just go for the Termies at 200?

 

MY GKSS usually run around 170 but that includes a Razorback, so really you are looking at 120 for the squad. At least so far as shooting goes the GKSS + RB have a higher damage out put and cost 55 points less.

[Drachnon]

I used to always put a few halberd in my strike squads but stopped doing it. My logic was they would take out enemy IC's before they could attack. However because of the meta I rarely face close combat IC's (too many guard) and now only carry a hammer against tanks. The other problem was that in the amount of halberd attacks needed to reliably take out the average IC was too high considering you only have one attack per halberd on the defence.

Against a SM captain it's 50% to hit, 50% to wound, 50% inv save + you need to pass psychic test, so you're looking at 8 attacks minimum.

 

Also they're expensive.

[thade]

Okay. Here comes my TL;DR.

 

I've been thinking about this quite a bit since it was posted. It is the current thinking (as echoed by others here) that halberds in Strike Squads are wasted points; I definitely agree that you don't want to stack a strike squad with halberds...don't do that for anything less than a Purifier or Terminator/Paladin squad. But what about one halberd?

 

One halberd in the squad serves a similar function as one hammer in the squad: i.e. where the hammer is a nigh-guaranteed dead tactical marine (two WS4 attacks wounding on 2+ with no armor is very likely going to kill an MEQ), the halberd is a nigh-guaranteed swing before anybody else gets to go, since it's I6. If you get off Hammerhand (which is likely) it's S5, which means it's wounding MEQ on 3+.

 

The hammer's on the Justicar (right? :nuke: ) so whether you charge or are charged, that hammer gets two swings (two 50/50 attacks are where the expected outcome of one wound comes from). The halberd - if you get charged - is a single attack. 50/50 at 3+ (or even 4+ if you're hoping for Force Weapons or used Warp Quake this turn) is not dazzling. It's not terrible, but it's not dazzling.

 

The hammer, whether you are charged or do charge, whether it's to your advantage to be in combat or not, is very likely going to kill a marine, and looks threatening as even without FW power it can ID most T4 or less commander models. Your opponent will think twice before charging this unit.

 

The halberd is a far less impressive stand-in which looks semi-threatening as it's an I6 FW, but honestly - and I don't think I'm alone here - I would try very hard to charge that unit so as to cut that halberd down to one swing.

 

The hammer is insurance. The halberd is a sprinkle on the frosting on the cake...and that sprinkle may be extraneous. A terrible idea? No, not necessarily. A 'must'? Definitely not, in my opinion.

[breng77]

Not a bad Idea Thade, and one that might be worth trying, the issue with that idea is the points. I find in GK builds I rarely have spare points (more than 5 maybe) For me it comes down to if I had the 10-20 points to spend on Halberds for my strike squads, I could probably buys something better (psybolt ammo, Grenades, etc) elsewhere. If I only have 5 points, is adding 1 halberd to 1 strike squad worth it, again it depends on what I still have to buy. Personally I would rather add searchlights to some of my vehicles, as I think (in a tournament) that they will likely be more useful. But psychologically Having a Halberd (or 2 if you were running a larger squad) could have an impact, as many people I have played against really have no idea just how bad Strike Squads are in combat. (They are fine comparied to tactical marines, but people see power weapons and expect a lot more out of them)

[Gentlemanloser]

The hammer isn't to kill MEQ.

 

It's there to pop transports and kill Walkers (which would otherwise tarpit the unit as Krak grenades aren't really scary).

 

The hammer serves a totally different function, and allows the Squad to deal with targets it otherwise wouldn't be able to. A single Halberd doesn't give you that.

[thade]

The hammer isn't to kill MEQ.

 

It's there to pop transports and kill Walkers (which would otherwise tarpit the unit as Krak grenades aren't really scary).

Interesting. Do you then decide not to swing the hammer when you get into melee with infantry? :)

 

Naturally a Thunder Hammer is a nice way to crack open a vehicle in a pinch, but you have Psycannons and Psy-riflemen for that. Walkers are dangerous things to get into melee with, hammer or no.

 

The hammer is very high odds of killing a marine model in melee, much higher than any of the power weapons in the squad, Hammerhand or no, because it gets an additional swing and wounds on 2+. It's the reason I take a Power Fist in any short-range engagement squad with my marines: so many times both of us will whiff at one another...but my power fist will kill one guy. That one guy has very often been the reason I've won combat.

 

You also disregard anti-IC insurance there, which is the typical selling point for a S8 weapon.

[breng77]

Yeah the hammer is not all that great against Walkers.

 

Against offensive walkers(killa Kans, Blood talon Dreads) with a 5 man squad it may never get to swing, even if it does and you get hammerhand off the odds of killing a dread are pretty low (22% against AV 12, 16% against AV 13). SO while it is certainly better than not having a hammer it is by no means all that great, and if that were the only reason you were paying for it save the points. I agree with Thade the hammer is nice anti-vehicle, anti-IC, and "guarantees" wounds.

[Gentlemanloser]

Of course you swing it in CC and kill marines ICs with it.

 

But the point I was making is that Hammers aren't taken primarily for that (especially if you're running a 5 man Squad, who shouldn't be seeing CC anyway, let alone the likelihood of your I1 weapon getting to swing in CC versus a dedicated CC squad) but they're taken to give your squad extra versatility.

 

The Halberd doesn't give you extra versatility, it just gives you the chance to maybe land a hit, possibly before your opponent. Could be a good thing. Sure. But it doesn't change what the Squad can effect.

 

Like Penetrating a LR, or destroying a Soul Grinder in CC.

[breng77]

I pretty much agree with you on that my only point is the Psycologically it can have an effect, people always seem to ask me if x squad has any halberds. People worry about them (despite the fact that on strike squads the are not all that effective) So if you had 5 or 10 points and nothing better to spend it on. Then I could see doing it. That said I never have, and likely never will.

[SirDuck13]

I guess I get to be the voice of decent here. I like Halberds on GKSSs. I run 2k lists and my GKSS run with 2 Psycannons, 1 Hammer, and 7 Halberds, psybolt ammo, plus a Rhino.

 

My thinking on this is that it makes a squad that would otherwise get swamped in CC fearsome. I'm not saying they're going to rock the socks off dedicated assault units, but they're going to take a big bite out of the damage output of those squads before they get the chance to swing most of the time. The way I figure, 7 I6 FW attacks with Hammer hand stands a fair chance of knocking down 3-4 MEQs before they get the chance to swing. Better odds than that even when it comes to things like DE and Nids, though with the nids, Genestealers still get to hit you at the same time if they get the charge, but at least you get to swing away on them before your squad is crippled.

 

On the down side, this is expensive in points. But after doing the math, I found that it was points that I had to burn for the most part. If I drop all of my halberds, I only net around 100 points. I don't have enough points leeway to take anything else exciting at that point level that would really benefit my list. Now if I were playing 1500 or so, I'd probably drop the halberds.

 

Just my two bits.

SD13

[breng77]

THere is nothing better to take in your list for ~100 points? NOt knowing your list I cannot say what you already have filled but heck I can think of a bunch of stuff.

 

Techmarine with grenades ~100 points

Inquisitor of some sort

Cotaez

Brotherhood Champion

Another 5 man Strike squad with an incinerator

A purgation squad with 4 incinerators.

 

Swap some strike squads to purifiers with halberds.

 

 

7 Halberd attacks with hammerhand (which is not a guarantee) nets you about 2 wounds average(2.3) if you don't charge (4-5 if you get the charge). SO you are paying 35 points per squad to net 2 wounds in CC. If your squad never gets into combat (which strikes really don't want to do), then that is a lot of wasted points.

[SirDuck13]

I didn't like the feel of tacking in an extra HQ, especially Coteaz. He doesn't fit into my list, since I'm not taking any Henchmen squads. Also, I don't think the other Inquisitors are very effective in my list. They just don't bring enough to the table. I'm already rolling with a GKGM and a squad of Termies. This is well off topic however. I was just offering my opinion about halberds in strike squads.

 

SD13

[breng77]

just my 2 cents

 

OM Inquisitor could bring another psycannon to your terminator squad, and stubborn

OX inquisitor brings funky grenades

any inquisitor can bring nother Psychic communion or hammer hand.

Cotaez is good for his points even without Henchman (re-roll to sieze, shoot outflankers and deepstrikers, 3 psychic powers , 2+ save, MC hammer, + stubborn).

 

Now you can take or not take whatever you wish, for personal reasons. Howerver, any of these would be able to fit into any list and for the points any of these is better than 100 points worth of halberds (IMO). Halberds are not a "wrong" choice, and on larger squads they could do OK, however, on small squads (as per the topic) they don't do much as you are likely getting 3.