thade Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Original post: Trying to associate the purchase of psybolts for the unit and having it pass on to an attached IC is no different (no less silly) than purchasing Jump Packs for an entire Command Squad and trying to assert that an IC attaching to the squad gets to be Jump Infantry while attached. Jump Packs are wargear that effect an individual mini. Psybolts are wargear that effect an entire squad. It's a noticable difference. Yet purchased in the same way. The argument is that "If the Brotherhood Banner auto-activates the Force Weapon for an attached IC, the psybolts should also confer to the attached IC." I maintain this is folly. Without my books, I can't cram it full of anything more than common sense. Have at it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 When a squad buys gear it affects everyone in the squad at the time the squad is bought. ICs are not part of squads at this time, so no dice (unless the squad is a retinue). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 psybolt's, gives each member of the squad a piece of wargear, called psybolt ammunition. the banner effects the unit every turn, yet is given to one model. its the same as giving each member a halberd, they strike at I6, because they have the wargear that lets them do it. an attached IC doesn't benefit from halberds from the squad, and wont from psybolts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 When a squad buys gear it affects everyone in the squad at the time the squad is bought. ICs are not part of squads at this time, so no dice (unless the squad is a retinue). Then the Banner shouldn't effect any attached ICs. an attached IC doesn't benefit from halberds from the squad, and wont from psybolts. So also shouldn't from the banner, right? (But this is a bad analogy, Halberds don't effect the *unit*, only the individual mini that purchased them) psybolt's, gives each member of the squad a piece of wargear, called psybolt ammunition. An interesting answer, but not backed by the rules I don't think. :/ Edit: Wouldn't the better writting be to have in the codex; Each Strike/Terminator/Etc can purchase Psybolt ammo for 2 points I know this would get rid of the increased cost on small squads, but it would bring it in line with things like 'nades/melta bombs or the like. (An interesting aside to this is the problem of Thawn, and whether he still has Psybolts after dying and ressurecting. :D ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 The banner, as I understand it, activates during a turn and affects all models in the squad at the time it activates. Psybolt ammo is distributed at the beginning of the game (when the list is writen). The IC is not in the squad then. I guess for a fluff reason, what happens when the IC joins a psybolt ammo squad? Do they take a moment to empty his gun's ammo and swap it mid battle. What then if he leaves, someone in the squad stops him and takes the special ammo back? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Tiberus Satio Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Do they take a moment to empty his gun's ammo and swap it mid battle. What then if he leaves, someone in the squad stops him and takes the special ammo back? I see the process of "Indian giving" being taken a bit to far... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I would go with no on this. If that works then Chaos Icons would also effect ICs. I'd have to look at the wording of the rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 Yea, I mean, there is a tremendous amount of precedent alone that shows the answer is 'no'. But Mr. Loser would very much like citations, I suspect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Honestly, though I believe that it is wrong, it really makes so little difference that if my opponent argued hard enough I would just give it to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Wargear that doesn't state so do not have an effect on ICs that have joined a unit and vice versa. If they did, an IC bringing a mastercrafted weapon would allow the unit a reroll. It doesn't. For a citation, look at assault grenades. Someone without them do not get the benefit if they join a unit with grenades. I'd not be surprised if psybolt ammo states that models equipped with them gain the +1 str, in which case it is pretty damn clear that any IC that join the unit AFTER THE COST HAS BEEN PAYED DURING LIST CREATION does NOT gain the benefits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 The Banner would affect an Independant Character because its requirement is that the model is "..in the same unit as the Brotherhood Banner". Ork Waaagh! Banner works the same way...show up, get a bonus. Psybolt ammunition says that "A model equipped with psybolt ammunition...". An Independant Character that joins a unit is not equipped with upgrades purchased for that squad. It is not part of his wargear, unless he purchases it himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Although you get to buy Psybolts "in bulk" at a fixed price, it is still being purchased as an individual upgrade to each model in the unit at the time of list creation. Whether you have 5 Strikes or 10 Strikes, the price is the same, but you are buying Psybolts for each model. An IC has his own entry for Psybolts and you must pay the points at list creation for him to have them, and therefore benefit from them. The Banner is different. It is, again, an individual model upgrade, however only one can be bought in the unit (rather than one per model in the unit). However, it effects the entire unit; therefore, when an IC joins the unit he, too, will benefit from the effect. I think this one is pretty clear. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 When the banner is used to activate force weapons does ICs attached to the squad have to have a psychic test available to use it? G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Do remember that the banner is also similar to the Chapter Banner and equivalents in the other Codices, in that it gives everyone in the squad, even ICs, +1A. All I'm saying is that it's not unusual. On the other hand, psybolt ammo is an individual upgrade for a model, liken it to special ammo for Sternguard (although they don't buy it). If you join a character with a bolter to the squad they won't start using special ammo, it just doesn't work like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Why? As above, the wargear entry states; "A model equipped with Psybolt ammunition". So the immediate answer is, the attached IC isn't equipped, so doesn't benefit. The wording of the FoC slot doesn't really help; "The entire unit may take" It implies that mini's not part of the unit at the stage upgrades are purchased, don't get the upgrades. However. The banner states; "Additionally, the unit will automatically pass <snip>" Which is different to it's; "All models in the same unit <snip>" The question is, is an attached IC counted as part of the unit? If not, then they don't get the auto FW pass (but do get the +1A) and don't get Psybolts. If they count as part of the unit, then surely the "entire unit" clause of Psybolts counts? Edit: And Thawns is left unanswered... If his original unit purchases Pybolt ammo, then he's go it right? When he's killed, and resurrects, do you use his printed unit entry? Which doesn't have Psybolts. Or does he carry over the Psybolts form the original unit he's no longer a part of? Although you get to buy Psybolts "in bulk" at a fixed price, it is still being purchased as an individual upgrade to each model in the unit at the time of list creation While that makes sense V, I don't think that's how the rules work. :/ Psybolt ammo is a single piece of wargear that's purchased for the entire Squad. It's not individual pieces of wargear that each member gets, individually. Unless we rule Thawn gets them. <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Page 48 of the BRB talks of Independent Characters joining and leaving units. Reading through the rules there, I'd argue that they suggest the character is most definitely a part of the unit for all intents and purposes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 And if the entire unit has Psybolt ammo? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 And if the entire unit has Psybolt ammo? The entire unit has psybolt ammo, but think of it like meltabombs on a Command squad. You can give the entire unit meltabombs, but if you don't purchase it for the IC joining them that doesn't mean he has it too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 It's not that big a deal to get overly concerned about. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Although you get to buy Psybolts "in bulk" at a fixed price, it is still being purchased as an individual upgrade to each model in the unit at the time of list creation. Whether you have 5 Strikes or 10 Strikes, the price is the same, but you are buying Psybolts for each model. An IC has his own entry for Psybolts and you must pay the points at list creation for him to have them, and therefore benefit from them. I think this one is pretty clear. +1, so do I. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 It's not that big a deal to get overly concerned about. Oh god no. Apart from the silly-ness that is Thawn, I'd never let an IC utilise a squads Psybolts. :) It was just a slow day at work, and I'm interested behind the mechanics design of a unit wargear that buffs ICs, and one that doesn't. :P The entire unit has psybolt ammo Is the IC part of the unit? I'll reference you back to your own post; the character is most definitely a part of the unit for all intents and purposes So is it a part of the unit, or not? If the entire unit has Psybolt ammo, and the IC is for all intents and purposes part of the unit... You see the problem. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Psybolts are not usable by an attached ICs in a unit for reasons already mentioned. And strictly speaking, by RAW, the Brotherhood Banner will not confer powers upon any attached IC either, as, at the time attacks are resolved the IC is always considered a separate unit of one, even though 'attached' to the unit with the banner. He will use his own attack stats only nor will he auto pass force weapon switch on during cc. I say 'strictly speaking' because this is such a ball-ache and effects many ICs attached to units with banners that take part in cc :). Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Apart from the silly-ness that is Thawn, I'd never let an IC utilise a squads Psybolts. Thawn isn't an IC though; he's a UC. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 ok 2 issues 1 psybolt ammunition C:GK p 62 and the unit entry 2 brotherhood banner C:GK P 62 and the NFW entry p 54. 1 In the special rules the 2nd paragraph first sentence is "A model equipped with......" and in the unit entries it is not a unit option it is "the entire squad can...." so it is a upgrade that is paid as a squad but given to the individual models befor a IC has a change to join it. 2 just like any other chapter banner it gives the +1A to "All models in the same unit as the brotherhood banner have...." (are you a member of the unit... yes well then have this gift of +1A). "Additionally, the unit will automatically pass its psychic test to 'activate' its force weapons." when combined with the page 54 rules "Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons(although independent characters must still roll separately)." I read this as their is a "unit" test that the BB lets you autopass but the IC's need to make their own test and as it is not a "unit" test it needs to role it(also the BB entry makes mention to one test for multiple activation which the IC does not satisfy ether). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 It was just a slow day at work, and I'm interested behind the mechanics design of a unit wargear that buffs ICs, and one that doesn't. :tu: The entire unit has psybolt ammo Is the IC part of the unit? I'll reference you back to your own post; the character is most definitely a part of the unit for all intents and purposes So is it a part of the unit, or not? If the entire unit has Psybolt ammo, and the IC is for all intents and purposes part of the unit... You see the problem. :D Psybolts work for those who paid for them. The unit. The IC becomes part of the unit via attachment, but was not present at the time of purchase, therefore, no psybolts for free. The Standard, however, activates not on those who it was bought for, like the psybolts do, but for whom is in the unit at the present time which allows for ICs and other Johnny-come-latelys, to reap the rewards. But I think you already knew that and are just being funny/humorous/cheeky. Remember, there is no one hand clapping epiphany in 40K. :D It's just a game that allows for teens to play it. If your eyes roll in opposite directions, and you hear a wooden flute, it's time to zoom out. You are looking too hard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238113-do-psybolts-in-a-squad-confer-to-an-attached-ic/#findComment-2871970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.