Do psybolts in a squad confer to an attached IC?

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL! :)

 

Edit: More seriously;

 

but for whom is in the unit at the present time which allows for ICs and other Johnny-come-latelys, to reap the rewards.

 

As Isiah pointed out above, in CC the IC isn't pat of the Squad, and is for all intents and purposes, a separate unit.

 

Thawn isn't an IC though; he's a UC.

 

Yeah. The problem arises when Thawns unit purchases Psybolt Ammo, and Thawn then dies and ressurects as his own unit. His printed stats don't have Psybolt Ammo. So does he still have them form the original unit purchase (he no longer a part of), or does he lose them?

 

Personally, the IC/UC rules just aren't robust enough, and I really hope, that like a lot else, they are expanded in 6th edition.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

s5 vs s4 for a handful of shots? It's not a big deal either way. It's not going to swing the outcome of a game.

 

G :D

[Gentlemanloser]

Again, I totally agree.

 

But it would just be nice to know how this works, and it would be better if GW didn't allow things like this to happen in the first place. :D

 

(The only time I really think this would come up is if Thawn tried to pop a Rhino. Without the Psybolts, he could only glance. With them, he could get a lucky pen.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To me the ruleset is far too complex to expect an answer from GW on this particular issue. Certainly there are other other questions that need answers that can and have a much higher impact on the game. That is how I see it at this point and time.

 

G :woot:

[thade]

But I think you already knew that and are just being funny/humorous/cheeky.

 

Remember, there is no one hand clapping epiphany in 40K. :D It's just a game that allows for teens to play it.

 

If your eyes roll in opposite directions, and you hear a wooden flute, it's time to zoom out. You are looking too hard.

Sometimes I feel like each of us - at least early on in our time on here - enjoy finding what we perceive to be loopholes in the rules and flexing our skills at highlighting them; that is, I suspect, the source of a lot of these really weird, belabored points we engage in. I suspect that there are more posters who are all about this than there are posters who are actually looking for exploits to gain an edge.

 

My meta-advice is this: there's no point to the argument itself, ever. Only to the question...which here has been answered.

[Dan VK]

Sometimes I feel like each of us - at least early on in our time on here - enjoy finding what we perceive to be loopholes in the rules and flexing our skills at highlighting them; that is, I suspect, the source of a lot of these really weird, belabored points we engage in. I suspect that there are more posters who are all about this than there are posters who are actually looking for exploits to gain an edge.

Seconded.

 

My meta-advice is this: there's no point to the argument itself, ever. Only to the question...which here has been answered.

Seconded harder. :D

[Gentlemanloser]

If it's been answered, then what happens to Thawn?

[Legatus]

The question is, is an attached IC counted as part of the unit?

Yes for the purpose of game play. No for the purpose of army list entries.

 

"If a model is an independent character, it will have its own entry in the appropriate Codex"

BRB, p. 47

 

Here is how the Codex Grey Knights describes army list entries (C:GK, p. 81):

 

Unit Profile

This section will show the profile of any models the unit can include.

 

Wargear

This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with.

 

But an Independent Character has its own entry. When a Captain joins a Terminator squad, his profile will not be changed to that of a Terminator, and his wargear will not be changed to terminator armour, stormbolter and powerfist. The Independent Character joins a unit during the game, and is treated as a model of that unit from that point on. However, the Independent Character still has its own army list entry, with its own profile and its own wargear. It will still award victory points independently of the unit, for example. But for game terms, the Independent Character has to move with the unit, can be hit by shooting directed at the unit, is subject to the unit's morale tests, etc.

 

 

If it's been answered, then what happens to Thawn?

It would say both the interpretations are viable, that a special UC is bought "last" and replaces all profile and wargear that the nit might otherwise have or has been upgraded with, or that the special UC is bought "first" and can then benefit from further upgrades to the entire unit. I would be inclined to go with the former interpretation, to keep things clean, in which case neitehr a resurrected nor a default Thawn at the start of the game would have psybolts. But if one wanted to interprete it as the latter, then Thawn, as part of the unit (including the entry), would have been equipped with psybolt ammunition and would still have them.

[Gentlemanloser]

And the assessment that no IC can benefit from the effects of a Banner, as in CC they are a separate unit, and not part of the Banner bearers unit?

 

Sometimes I feel like each of us - at least early on in our time on here - enjoy finding what we perceive to be loopholes in the rules and flexing our skills at highlighting them; that is, I suspect, the source of a lot of these really weird, belabored points we engage in. I suspect that there are more posters who are all about this than there are posters who are actually looking for exploits to gain an edge.

 

Totally agree. :D

 

My meta-advice is this: there's no point to the argument itself, ever.

 

Utterly disagree. ;)

 

There can be immense enjoyment, and education from a discussion of this type. Which is reason enough itself.

[Legatus]

And the assessment that no IC can benefit from the effects of a Banner, as in CC they are a separate unit, and not part of the Banner bearers unit?

I would say the effects of a banner apply during gameplay, and not to an army list entry. I.e. a banner affecting a unit is similar to an enemy psychic power affecting a unit, or enemy fire being distributed among the unit, or the unit being pinned. Since the character is part of that unit during the game, he is subject to those effects. (Except in instances where the rules say he is not, such as for teh purpose of resolving attacks in close combat.)

The banner effects are not a "wargear upgrade" the unit recieves during army creation. (The banner itself is, but it's effects are applied during gameplay.) For example, if the banner is removed from play, the unit will not keep the beneficial effects.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, an IC is in the same unit as a a Banner bearer in most phases, so would get a +1A to thier stats.

 

But in the Assault Phas,e where they use the extra +1A, they are no longer in the Banner bearers unit, but are a unit to themselves. So they should (exactly as if they had left the unit in the movement phase) lose the +1A.

 

Isn't that correct?

[thade]

There can be immense enjoyment, and education from a discussion of this type. Which is reason enough itself.

Your prerogative, of course. Reason I posted that was because I feel very strongly that support of arguing for sake of arguing belabors these points far beyond necessity or reason. Just my stance, though.

 

As for Thrawn, wasn't there an FAQ or something regarding Telion and the conference of the Stealth USR between him and the squad? I can't recall how that turned out and can't find it. Anybody? Is that related here?

[Gentlemanloser]

That was about Telions Stealth USR being applied to his whole Squad, so you didn't need to purchase them all Camo Cloaks.

 

But that would only last for as long a Telion was alive, so sometimes you might want to purchase some cloaks. ;)

 

It doesn't really have any bearing on what stats to use for Thawn after he ressurects. :(

[Grey Mage]

The Banner would affect an Independant Character because its requirement is that the model is "..in the same unit as the Brotherhood Banner". Ork Waaagh! Banner works the same way...show up, get a bonus.

 

Psybolt ammunition says that "A model equipped with psybolt ammunition...". An Independant Character that joins a unit is not equipped with upgrades purchased for that squad. It is not part of his wargear, unless he purchases it himself.

I think this is the crux of the argument right here.

 

Simple, consistent, and to the point. Why are we still arguing again?

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase in CC, when the IC gets to attack, it is no longer in the same unit as the Banner bearer.

[thade]

Becuase in CC, when the IC gets to attack, it is no longer in the same unit as the Banner bearer.

No, he's still part of the unit in melee; he's only considered an individual for the purposes of allocating attacks (i.e. attacks can be directed at him and thus wounds can't be diverted to the unit). He still Sweeps as part of the unit, Rallies as part of the unit, and must remain in coherency with the unit.

 

For the same reasons that Librarians are able to buff themselves and their attached unit with powers in CC, the Banner buffs attached ICs.

[Dan VK]

Why are we still arguing again?

I very well may be incorrect, but I believe the consensus on the original topic is, "No." The thread continues because a related situation is being discussed. Should someone create a new thread? As I understand it, the question is as follows:

 

It is possible to upgrade a Grey Knight Terminator Squad with psybolt ammunition and upgrade the Terminator Justicar to Justiciar Thawn. Justicar Thawn's 'I Shall Not Yield' rule states that upon his demise he valiantly stands back up after his dirt nap, does not see his squad around, and goes back to administering the Emperor's justice in solitude. When this happens, is Justicar Thawn still equipped with psybolt ammunition?

 

I believe he is, but I can only support that with precedent. Justicar Thawn is part of the squad, which is equipped with psybolt ammunation. That he later becomes a separate unit is irrelevant because he was part of the squad when the equipment was purchased. It could be argued that the Justicar Thawn that is placed back on the table was never part of the squad because he "is treated as a separate unit from this point." Both positions are inferred without adequate information.

[thade]

Is he worded like the Champion upgrades for Command Squads? IE does he "replace all wargear"? If that's the case, I think RAW he (unfortunately) loses the psybolt ammo. Which is kinda dumb and I bet they thought that...and in their minds they thought it was so dumb that obviously he keeps the ammo.

 

In either case, they left that open-ended. :\

[Dan VK]

Is he worded like the Champion upgrades for Command Squads? IE does he "replace all wargear"? If that's the case, I think RAW he (unfortunately) loses the psybolt ammo. Which is kinda dumb and I bet they thought that...and in their minds they thought it was so dumb that obviously he keeps the ammo.

 

In either case, they left that open-ended. :\

"One Grey Knight Terminator squad can upgrade their Justicar to Anval Thawn" C:GK page 91

 

"May upgrade one model to an Apothecary, replacing storm bolter with narthecium" C:GK page 89

 

Becuase in CC, when the IC gets to attack, it is no longer in the same unit as the Banner bearer.

No, he's still part of the unit in melee; he's only considered an individual for the purposes of allocating attacks (i.e. attacks can be directed at him and thus wounds can't be diverted to the unit). He still Sweeps as part of the unit, Rallies as part of the unit, and must remain in coherency with the unit.

 

For the same reasons that Librarians are able to buff themselves and their attached unit with powers in CC, the Banner buffs attached ICs.

“When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit. [sNIP] Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onward).” BRB bage 49

 

“All models in the same unit as the Brotherhood Banner have +1 Attack whilst the banner bearer is alive. Additionally, the unit will automatically pass its Psychic test to ‘activate’ its force weapons.” C:GK page 62

 

"When the attacks are resolved" the independent character is "treated as a separate single-model unit" so the IC is not "in the same unit as the Brother Banner" and does not receive the benefits when they matter. In other (and more) words, the IC will not gain the benefits of the Brotherhood Banner when the IC is not attached to the squad and they are both part of the same combat, so the IC does not gain the benefits while attached to the squad when making attacks, which is when the benefits of the Brotherhood Banner are used, according to the Multiple Combats section. Regarding 'combat buff' psychic powers, they are, or can be if no time is specified, used at a time other than when resolving attacks, so it does not matter if the psyker is not part of the unit afterward.

 

 

[EDIT: Added additional response.]

[Grey Mage]

Equipment doesnt get added or subtracted after army list creation unless the rules specificly say so.

 

So, if you buy psybolt ammunition for the squad each member in the squad gets it- sure sure.

 

Anyone else who joins the squad wont get it, because they were not there when it was passed out.

[Something Wycked]

We addressed Thawn and Psybolts a good long time ago, though obviously it wasn't resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

I'll raise the same point I raised back then: when Anval dies, do his brothers stop by his corpse, unload the psybolts from his stormbolter and then reload his stormbolter with normal bolter shells? I think not. Anval keeps the psybolts when he dies and resurrects "as his own unit" as Gentleman likes to say.

 

My argument has nothing to do with RAW, of course, but everything to do with logic.

 

 

@ thade:

An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry.

-Thomas Jefferson

:(

[Grey Mage]

Another way of looking at it....

 

A SW squad of Grey Hunters gets its second special weapon for free at 10 men. Can you add a wolf gaurd, before the game starts, to get this magic number? Nope- he wasnt there when wargear was purchased, so he doesnt count towards it, nor could he wield any of their stuff- such as a meltagun or wolf standard, despite being entirely part of the unit- even to the point of kill points and scoring status.

[timmytool]

think of it this way a 10 man sq with psybolt ammo combat squads at the start of the game they are treated as separate units from that point on if Thawn losses his ammo due to being resurrected as a separate unit then which combat sq retains the psybolt ammo and which one losses it as the wording is near identical (in purpose and without looking in word).

[jeffersonian000]

"When the attacks are resolved" the independent character is "treated as a separate single-model unit" so the IC is not "in the same unit as the Brother Banner" and does not receive the benefits when they matter. In other (and more) words, the IC will not gain the benefits of the Brotherhood Banner when the IC is not attached to the squad and they are both part of the same combat, so the IC does not gain the benefits while attached to the squad when making attacks, which is when the benefits of the Brotherhood Banner are used, according to the Multiple Combats section. Regarding 'combat buff' psychic powers, they are, or can be if no time is specified, used at a time other than when resolving attacks, so it does not matter if the psyker is not part of the unit afterward.

 

"When the attacks are resolved" implies after the number of attacks are calculated, targets are selected, and the the attacks are rolled for. Which means that the +1 attack and auto-activation of NFW would occur before the IC is considered a separate unit for that phase of combat.

 

SJ

[Dan VK]

"When the attacks are resolved" implies after the number of attacks are calculated, targets are selected, and the the attacks are rolled for. Which means that the +1 attack and auto-activation of NFW would occur before the IC is considered a separate unit for that phase of combat.

 

SJ

Whether a model is engaged or not is the first thing done when resolving a combat. When it is time for models of a specific Initiative to strike, engaged models roll dice equal to their Attacks characteristic and any bonuses that may apply. I cannot find any passage stating that the number of attacks is determined before 'resolve combats'. It certainly does not happen during 'move assaulting units' or 'defenders react'. The psychic test for a force weapon is made after a model has been wounded. The wounded model has yet to be removed as a casualty, so the attacks are still being resolved, as it is not yet time to determine assault results. During 'resolve combats' an independent character is considered a separate unit.

 

[EDIT: Spelilng]