Do psybolts in a squad confer to an attached IC?

[timmytool]

"When the attacks are resolved" implies after the number of attacks are calculated, targets are selected, and the the attacks are rolled for. Which means that the +1 attack and auto-activation of NFW would occur before the IC is considered a separate unit for that phase of combat.

 

SJ

Whether a model is engaged or not is the first thing done when resolving a combat. When it is time for models of a specific Initiative to strike, engaged models roll dice equal to their Attacks characteristic and any bonuses that may apply. I cannot find any passage stating that the number of attacks is determined before 'resolve combats'. It certainly does not happen during 'move assaulting units' or 'defenders react'. The psychic test for a force weapon is made after a model has been wounded. The wounded model has yet to be removed as a casualty, so the attacks are still being resolved, as it is not yet time to determine assault results. During 'resolve combats' an independent character is considered a separate unit.

 

[EDIT: Spelilng]

 

so going by your logic a chaplain only gives re-rolls to himself as when it comes to re-rolling they aren't a squad anymore.(and its not a ice cream scenario like psybolts and it does not trigger and give them the ability ether)

C:SM p58

"Liturgies of Battle:On a player turn in which he assaults, a Chaplain and all members of any squad he has joined can re-roll failed rolls to hit" BTW squad and unit mean the same thing in w40k BRB p3 under "units"

 

While I agree the banner does not give the auto activation to the IC(due to the wording in the NFW weapon entry and the banner's interacting, see my earlier post) it does however give the +1 attack to IC like all other banners in the game(that give +1A to the unit).

 

precedence(chaplain for one) has been set that in combat they still confer unit effects to each other but not wounds, in close combat.

[Dan VK]

so going by your logic a chaplain only gives re-rolls to himself as when it comes to re-rolling they aren't a squad anymore.(and its not a ice cream scenario like psybolts and it does not trigger and give them the ability ether)

C:SM p58

"Liturgies of Battle:On a player turn in which he assaults, a Chaplain and all members of any squad he has joined can re-roll failed rolls to hit" BTW squad and unit mean the same thing in w40k BRB p3 under "units"

Liturgies of Battle triggers when a Chaplain assaults, at which point he is not considered a separate unit. The benefit of Liturgies of Battle continues for the player turn, so the unit he is attached to still gains the benefit, even though it is considered a separate unit for resolving the combat. Similar wording is used for assault-related psychic powers.

 

 

[EDIT: Plurals]

[timmytool]

so going by your logic a chaplain only gives re-rolls to himself as when it comes to re-rolling they aren't a squad anymore.(and its not a ice cream scenario like psybolts and it does not trigger and give them the ability ether)

C:SM p58

"Liturgies of Battle:On a player turn in which he assaults, a Chaplain and all members of any squad he has joined can re-roll failed rolls to hit" BTW squad and unit mean the same thing in w40k BRB p3 under "units"

Liturgies of Battle triggers when a Chaplain assaults, at which point he is not considered a separate unit. The benefit of Liturgies of Battle continues for the player turn, so the unit he is attached to still gains the benefit, even though they are considered a separate unit for resolving the combat. Similar wording is used for assault-related psychic powers.

psychic powers are just that powers that are activated and then have a continued affect, LOB is a special rule and does not trigger or otherwise they would not have use LR in this BRB FAQ entry

"Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease

to work once it is destroyed? (p61)

A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is

destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked

passengers would not be able to launch an assault in

the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer

benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule."

special rules are just that their not triggered unless they say that specifically as the LR's assault vehicle special rule is worded like LOB, they don't function independently once the enabling scenario is present.

[Dan VK]

psychic powers are just that powers that are activated and then have a continued affect, LOB is a special rule and does not trigger or otherwise they would not have use LR in this BRB FAQ entry

"Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease

to work once it is destroyed? (p61)

A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is

destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked

passengers would not be able to launch an assault in

the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer

benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule."

special rules are just that their not triggered unless they say that specifically as the LR's assault vehicle special rule is worded like LOB, they don't function independently once the enabling scenario is present.

I disagree. The chaplain is not a vehicle, and the Chaplain has not been removed as a casualty (the closest to 'destroyed' for infantry), so I do not think this FAQ entry applies. If this FAQ entry does apply, then a joined unit will not benefit from Liturgies of Battle when the Chaplain is killed prior to the unit's attacks in the Initiative order.

 

Regardless of whether the Chaplain is considered to be a separate unit at the time or not, or if he has been removed as a casualty or not, if he assaulted while joined to a unit and it is still that player turn, then all members of that unit may re-roll roll failed rolls to hit. The language used in Liturgies of Battle is not the same language used in the Brotherhood Banner entry.

[Gentlemanloser]

We addressed Thawn and Psybolts a good long time ago, though obviously it wasn't resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Did we? I can't remember us ever coming to a conclusion, and agreeing that this required FAQing in the least. :/

[Commander Sasha]

Erm, I don't know if my codex is different from everyone else's, but in mine every unit that can take Psybolt ammunition, and is comprised of more than one model, says the following:

"The entire squad can have psybolt ammunition"

The "squad" is the 5-10 guys. The "Unit" during the game is that squad, plus any attached ICs. The banner affects the "unit" (inc ICs, as per BRB), the psybolts affect the "squad".

 

I may be wrong.

[Dan VK]

Erm, I don't know if my codex is different from everyone else's, but in mine every unit that can take Psybolt ammunition, and is comprised of more than one model, says the following:

"The entire squad can have psybolt ammunition"

The "squad" is the 5-10 guys. The "Unit" during the game is that squad, plus any attached ICs. The banner affects the "unit" (inc ICs, as per BRB), the psybolts affect the "squad".

 

I may be wrong.

'squad' and 'unit' are used interchangeably in the BRB. Apparently it is difficult to stick to a single term. <_<

[thade]

ICs in combat are differentiated from their squads for the purposes of allocating attacks. As quoted from the BRB by Dan:

 

“When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit."

 

This doesn't impact things like the Chaplain's re-rolls or buffs from Librarians; this only impacts what model(s) can swing at what model(s). The buffs still apply. It's very straight forward.

 

If you're in the same unit as the banner, and the bearer is still alive, you get +1 attack and your Force Weapons can activate without a roll.

 

If this still seems weird to you in lieu of the BRB, I recommend resting on the thought that the Codex trumps it.

[Dan VK]

ICs in combat are differentiated from their squads for the purposes of allocating attacks. As quoted from the BRB by Dan:

 

“When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit."

 

This doesn't impact things like the Chaplain's re-rolls or buffs from Librarians; this only impacts what model(s) can swing at what model(s). The buffs still apply. It's very straight forward.

 

If you're in the same unit as the banner, and the bearer is still alive, you get +1 attack and your Force Weapons can activate without a roll.

"Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onward).” BRB page 49

 

The independent character is not treated as a separate unit only for allocating attacks. An independent character is considered a separate unit beginning when checking which models are engaged, and ending when it is time to determine assault results. That is everything under the 'fighting a close combat' heading, which is when the +1 attack and auto-pass force weapon test happen. Per the 'multiple combats' rules, if during this time a unit of Purifiers (random example) in the same combat would not gain the benefit of the Brotherhood Banner in the Grey Knights Terminator squad, then an independent character, joined or not, will not gain benefit, either.

 

If this still seems weird to you in lieu of the BRB, I recommend resting on the thought that the Codex trumps it.

There is nothing for the codex to trump. The Brotherhood Banner entry does not contradict anything in the BRB, and vice versa.

 

 

[EDIT: I like the sound of my own internet voice Corrected grammar and added another explanation]

[jeffersonian000]

Well, it plainly states "once all attacks have been resolved", which last I check is a past tense of "resolve", that specifically means "completed", "finished", or "done" rather than "complete", "finish", or "start". IC's start all assault phases as a member of the unit they are within 2" of (or a specified unit if more than one is within range). The Brotherhood Banner confers both of its effects during the actual combat (+1 attack just for being there, auto-activation after the first unsaved wound), both effects occuring before all attacks are "resolved", which would occur after the last attack by initiative order is completed. The only thing specific about the IC is that activation still uses one of his "powers per turn", just as it uses the squads "one power per turn".

 

Not sure why this is unclear, as it is clearly defined in the BRB and codex.

 

SJ

[Something Wycked]

The Brotherhood Banner specifically does not activate the IC's NFW due to this piece of the NFW rules:

"Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons(although independent characters must still roll separately)." C:GK page 54

 

Ergo, the unit auto-passes its roll but the IC must still roll seperately.

 

However, the IC should still get the +1A. ICs are only a separate unit for the purposes of directing attacks to each unit in this makeshift multi-unit assault. For all other purposes they are the same unit.

[jeffersonian000]

What part of "automatically pass the roll to activate" are you missing when the IC rolls for activiation? Brotherhood Banner confers its bonuses to all models in the same unit. Last I checked, when an IC joins a unit, it is counted as a member of that unit until such time as it leaves coherency. The IC is still "rolling" for activiation, its just that the activation is automatic per the Banner's special rules when the IC is joined to a unit with a Brotherhood Banner. What the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule notes is that the IC must still use one of their "powers per turn" rather than ride for free on the BoP unit's "one power per turn".

 

SJ

[Something Wycked]

must    /mʌst/ auxiliary verb

1. to be obliged or bound to by an imperative requirement: I must keep my word.

2. to be under the necessity to; need to: Animals must eat to live.

 

still    /stɪl/ adverb

14. even then; yet; nevertheless: to be rich and still crave more.

 

roll   /roʊl/ verb (used without object)

1. to move along a surface by revolving or turning over and over, as a ball or a wheel.

 

sep·a·rate   /v. ˈsɛpəˌreɪt; adj., n. ˈsɛpərɪt/ verb (used with object)

1. to keep apart or divide, as by an intervening barrier or space: to separate two fields by a fence.

2. to put, bring, or force apart; part: to separate two fighting boys.

3. to set apart; disconnect; dissociate: to separate church and state.

 

The IC is: bound by an imperative requirement, even then, to move dice along a surface by revolving over and over apart from his unit.

 

Or: the IC must still roll separately. "That's RAW," as you've said in the past.

[Dan VK]

Well, it plainly states "once all attacks have been resolved", which last I check is a past tense of "resolve", that specifically means "completed", "finished", or "done" rather than "complete", "finish", or "start". IC's start all assault phases as a member of the unit they are within 2" of (or a specified unit if more than one is within range). The Brotherhood Banner confers both of its effects during the actual combat (+1 attack just for being there, auto-activation after the first unsaved wound), both effects occuring before all attacks are "resolved", which would occur after the last attack by initiative order is completed. The only thing specific about the IC is that activation still uses one of his "powers per turn", just as it uses the squads "one power per turn".

It also plainly states "from determining assault results onward". After attacks have been resolved, which is when it is time to determine assault results, the independent character is again considered part of the unit. I am unsure of what you are trying to say; I apologize for being dense. Are you suggesting that because the independent character is affected by the Brotherhood Banner at the start of the Assault phase, he may gain benefit from it at any point during that Assault phase?

 

Not sure why this is unclear, as it is clearly defined in the BRB and codex.

I feel the same way.

 

 

Should a separate thread be made to discuss this? We seem to be rather :D

[jeffersonian000]

I'm stating the as long as the IC is still joined to the unit with the banner, and the banner holder is still alive, the IC gains all benefits of the banner regardless of what stage it is during any givin assault phase. While the IC is treated as a separate unit for attacks and attack allocation during the assault, at no time does the IC actually stop being joined to the unit until at the end of the movement phase when the IC is outside of 2" unit coherency.

 

To quote the above that was supposedly quoting me, "That is RAW!"

 

SJ

[Dan VK]

I'm stating the as long as the IC is still joined to the unit with the banner, and the banner holder is still alive, the IC gains all benefits of the banner regardless of what stage it is during any givin assault phase. While the IC is treated as a separate unit for attacks and attack allocation during the assault, at no time does the IC actually stop being joined to the unit until at the end of the movement phase when the IC is outside of 2" unit coherency.

Thanks for the explanation. B) Sometimes I miss the forest for the trees when reading rules arguments (just ask Thade :D).

 

The BRB does not state that the independent character is considered a separate unit for attacks and attack allocation; the BRB states that while attacks are resolved the independent character is considered a separate unit, as described under 'multiple combats', and the time frame 'until assault results are determined' is given.

 

“When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit. [sNIP] Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onward).” BRB page 49

 

 

I think we all need to calm down a bit and stick to the topic. I am sure every poster knows that every other poster believes their position to be the only one supported by the BRB.

 

 

[EDIT: Redacted, government-style.]

[Something Wycked]

I should've saved the quote from the search where I found it. I won't dig thought all those posts again. B)

 

I'm completely calm, Dan, I just dislike when I see things like this in what are supposed to be friendly discussions:

What part of "automatically pass the roll to activate" are you missing when the IC rolls for activiation?

In any case, Dan has the discussion neatly wrapped up with that BRB RAW snippet. :D Between the beginning of initiative rounds and the start of assault results where the banner's effects would be put to use by the IC, the IC is a completely different unit.