Does the Vindicare Shield Breaker work on armour?

[Abaddonshand]

Specifically, terminator armour or dreadknight armour? I believe that it doesn't, as this is armour, not wargear. In a game I played against another grey knight player, he tried to use it to take away my dreadknight's invulnerable save (failed to wound, so didn't work). In case this comes up again, I thought I should check it.

 

Thanks

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Wargear is anything that your model has on. Armour is wargear, weapons are wargear, genardes are wargear. So yes the Shield Breaker would pop the 3++ saves from Storm Shield for example.

[Brother Valerius]

Armor is wargear, so it does remove an invulnerable save conferred by armor.

[Chengar Qordath]

Thirding that armor is wargear; Terminators and Dreadknights both have their armor listed under the wargear heading in their army list entries.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

The ones that get Inv Saves from Special Abilities are the ones that don't lose it from Shield Breakers like Ragnar Blackmane from Space Wolves and Mandrakes from Dark Eldar. Stuff like that.

[thade]

This has an interesting (if very infrequent) side effect: if you hit a unit of Terminators, for instance, that is identical in load out (say they are all LC termintators) then whichever one takes and fails the save is suddenly different from the rest of the squad: he's in his own class now for wound allocation!

 

I say "very infrequent" because I don't see a Vindicare effectively wasting a shot with this unless he's feeling very cheeky, has some sinister plan, or really has nothing else to shoot at.

[Brother Valerius]

You know, I just noticed an interesting thing in the wording of the shield breaker... it says that "when a wound... is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves... immediately." (emphasis mine)

 

That means that the losing of the invulnerable save happens before saves are rolled, and happens even if the wound is saved against. I never really realized that before.

 

Thade, you are of course correct about the terminator, but since he loses his inv save immediately (so no saving that way), and the wound is AP1, and he only has one wound, he's not likely to live long enough for it to matter. :)

[thade]

Ha, fair point. Then this would only come up in the EXTREMELY rare situation where a player has a unit of Nobs (all of which have cybork parts) or a unit of Paladins (all of which are identically geared up).

 

Purely academic on my part. Feel free to disregard me here. :)

[JamesI]

You know, I just noticed an interesting thing in the wording of the shield breaker... it says that "when a wound... is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves... immediately." (emphasis mine)

 

That means that the losing of the invulnerable save happens before saves are rolled, and happens even if the wound is saved against. I never really realized that before.

 

Thade, you are of course correct about the terminator, but since he loses his inv save immediately (so no saving that way), and the wound is AP1, and he only has one wound, he's not likely to live long enough for it to matter. :)

 

The terminator could be in cover?

[Elric the Silvercoat]

You know, I just noticed an interesting thing in the wording of the shield breaker... it says that "when a wound... is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves... immediately." (emphasis mine)

 

That means that the losing of the invulnerable save happens before saves are rolled, and happens even if the wound is saved against. I never really realized that before.

 

Thade, you are of course correct about the terminator, but since he loses his inv save immediately (so no saving that way), and the wound is AP1, and he only has one wound, he's not likely to live long enough for it to matter. ;)

 

The terminator could be in cover?

Terminators in cover? What terminators are you running without Storm Shields? :D

[Inquisitor Fox]

Granted everything the Inquisition does needs to be looked at in the vein of "It could be a plot..." I mean, we love Illuminating plots after all... ;)

 

"I always think everything could be a trap... that is why I'm still alive..." - Prince Humperdink

 

 

Sometimes it's nice to differentiate numbers, or to try and pick off things with invulnerable saves. Granted I'm not sure of which of those situations it could be right now. Usually I'm going for higher profile targets than Terminators. With the invulnerable save being eliminated as soon as the wound is assigned however, it makes it a little easier to carve through things like Hammernators or Lysander. Abaddon becomes a lot easier to take down as his invuln gradually reduces, though I can't remember how much of his is wargear and how much is daemonic gifts. It could be an excellent use of a Vindicare to gradually take down a Hammernator Assault Terminator unit.

 

EDIT:

Terminators in cover? What terminators are you running without Storm Shields? :D

It could be the one or two lightning-claw terminators in the same unit... ;)

[Brother Valerius]

You know, I just noticed an interesting thing in the wording of the shield breaker... it says that "when a wound... is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves... immediately." (emphasis mine)

 

That means that the losing of the invulnerable save happens before saves are rolled, and happens even if the wound is saved against. I never really realized that before.

 

Thade, you are of course correct about the terminator, but since he loses his inv save immediately (so no saving that way), and the wound is AP1, and he only has one wound, he's not likely to live long enough for it to matter. ;)

 

The terminator could be in cover?

Terminators in cover? What terminators are you running without Storm Shields? :D

 

No storm shield save, the loss of invulnerable save is immediate (before saves are taken). So yeah, cover is the only save you could take. That's unlikely, though.

[Abaddonshand]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought it didn't work on armour because when I played sisters a while back I used it on St. Celestine and the sisters player told me it didn't work on her.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Fool me once shame on you... fool me twice shame on me. ;)

 

G :D

[Drachnon]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought it didn't work on armour because when I played sisters a while back I used it on St. Celestine and the sisters player told me it didn't work on her.

It works half on St. Celestine. Celestine has 2 invunerable saves:

A 4+ from her armour (which is wargear)

A 6+ from shield of faith (which is a special rule)

Since shield breakers only work on wargear she loses her 4+ inv save but retains the 6+.

[GodwynDi]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought it didn't work on armour because when I played sisters a while back I used it on St. Celestine and the sisters player told me it didn't work on her.

It works half on St. Celestine. Celestine has 2 invunerable saves:

A 4+ from her armour (which is wargear)

A 6+ from shield of faith (which is a special rule)

Since shield breakers only work on wargear she loses her 4+ inv save but retains the 6+.

 

Or was it the old WH dex and she was gaining her invulnerable from spirit of the martyr? Even then it would remove her armor 4++, but that was rarely that important before.

[BassWave]

Wait would a storm shield wielding terminator lose his 3+ invul as well as his normal 5+ at the same time, or does he need to get shot twice in order to lose both?

[BrotherWasted]

He'd lose both. The rules specifically say the target loses "any invulnverable saves" that come from wargear.

[ValourousHeart]

Although for the life of me I can't figure out why the vindicare doesn't know what the mob has known for years.

Blow off their knee caps, that should slow down those wyches.