Codex: DA wishlist

[dragonknight4275]

Hey guys. My favorite Space Marine Chapter has always been, and will be, the one, the only, Unforgiven Dark Angels. However, IMO at least, their Codex sucks crap!! Here's what I'd like to see in an update for the Dark Angels codex (no, I'm not starting some Dark Angels update rumor).

 

−Up-to-date HQ's. Meaning WS6 (except for Librarians and such), and NO RITES OF BATTLE! Really, although it's a really useful rule for a DA player, it's TOO powerful! Ld10 for every unit is nothing to joke about, and as a veteran DA/BT (but mostly BT) player, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

—Better/more reasonable Grand Masters. Sammael's great, but Azrael and Belial harshly disappoint me. I also think it's kinda funny how GW pushes for Sammael, when the Supreme Grand Master Azrael is sitting there on his butt looking useless compared to a jetbike with Eternal Warrior and a plasma cannon. With Belial, it's cool how you can choose his loadout between the claws, TH/SS, or sword, but 130 points? It's not the character itself that disappoints me, but the ridiculous points cost! How is a freaking Grand Master with a possible (and free) 2+/3+ save 130 freaking points?!?! And that's not even bringing up the fact that he allows Fearless Terminator squads as troops!

—A little more "uniqueness" for the Interrogator-Chaplains. Look at the Wolves, they have like a billion unique characters that are ACTUALLY unique. Our good old DA Interrogators should have a little bit more than a better statline, don't you think? Something like giving Preferred Enemy against Chaos Space Marines (which currently would not OP with the BT's Accept any Challenge)?

—And lastly, just bring the points costs up to date with the 5th ed codexes. Dreads and Assault marines at 125 points? Hmm, I wonder why I always have fewer Marines when I'm playing Dark Angels! Except when I field full, 165-point Tac squads in Rhinos.....free meltabombs for the sarges! Well not really free but it brings the points cost to even with the new books.

 

 

A lot of you may think these are stupid, and I'm hoping for too much, but it's only my opinion yeah? And you most definitely have yours. Tell me what you think.

 

~DK

[Varizel]

1. What's wrong w/ Rites of Battle? That's the only thing that kinda makes Company Master (Generic) worth it to take. Otherwise you'll go w/ Chaplain all the time... Sides.... aren't we're supposed to be tactically good? Rites of Battle is alright... juts keep it... WS 6 however is totally unnecessary and i still don't understand why they made captains the equivalent of Chaos Lord. WS5 should be more than sufficient most of the time for generic character. But hey... if they give WS6 AND RoB ... i'm a happy man... if i get to choose one, just give me the RoB. Heck take a look of C : SM and tell me they take Generic Captain that is not on bikes. I RARELY see one. Only if i play against my friends' fists or um did i ever see them... and most of the time they field libbies too. If i got a complain about our HQs... it's the damn libby... they really need a LOOOONGG... HARRRRRDD.... LOOOKKK on them.

 

2. Belial for 130 pts is awesome, man... sides Belial doesn't have iron halo... that's why he's that cheap. He's just a generic company master w/ a tagged on name w/ termie armor. His only awesome sauce ability is the whole deathwing shabang. Remember when DA still uses 4++ SS on CC only? Back then peeps are callng him Capt. Useless. Now he's Captain Badass.... never dissapoint in any game i fielded him w/ the TH&SS gear. Azrael however is a bit underwhelming for the pts we bought him for.

 

3. Int. Chappie just need to have some rules about Blades of Reasons. I dunno... SOMETHING, heck just killing an IC gave u an extra pts or something is more than sufficient. But otherwise man.... Sacred Standard, whole 12 inch dudes are fearless? awesome stuffs.... durability in shooting.

 

4. Pts costs... well yeah... it's not that us being pted crazily expensive... it's other marines that are pointed too cheap. At least that's my take on it. Assault Marines though needed to get their pts down. For a supposedly part of the bread and butter of a marine army (Assault, Tactical, Devs).... they sure cost like lobster... w/ a taste like canned tuna. I'll be more inclined to say.. at least make our drop pod 35 pts... geebuz.. 50 pts is CRAZZYYY talk .. even though the lack of DPA is most of the time in my case...a boon. Just not 15 pts boon.

 

All of these are IMHO. Not facts nor general opinions.. so most likley it'll differ w/ what everybody else think.

Peace.

[Droma]

The thread has been done before but I'll list stuff anyway I guess.

 

1. Revamped points cost

2. revamped army wide special rule(I'd like a ld test for defensive grenades)

3. more special characters

4. Belial/sammy/azzy all reworked

5. updated librarian rules with more powers to choose from

6. bikes losing fearless gaining new generic special rule and skilled rider

7. jetbike unit

8. sang guard/paladin style unit(in pa, probably artificer armor and relic blades but paladin stat line)

9. to go along with above company vets redone so its just vanguard/sternguard they just both listed under comp vets in the fluff section

10. cc bike unit

11. termies, tac, rw attack squadron(without speeder option) as troop choices

12. drop pods getting drop pod assault rules so we can actually drop termies and dreads turn 1

13. belial modifying reserve rolls

14. azzy making #8 troops

15. sammy making cc bike squads troops and able to ride with new jetbike unit

16. devs massively cheaper as they are still overcosted in sm/ba dexes

 

I've got more but I'm working on a fan dex that I should be posting up sometime soon. (sorry guys that da fan dex forum is annoying me, zero real progress)

[sonofblood]

Though not an avid Dark Angel player; I am a fan and would probably play more with a few changes.

 

To Start:

 

1. New Army wide rules. Stubborn I think would be good(I heard DA had this way back when before the current codex) along with ATSKNF, and Combat Squads. Maybe one other.

2. Captains and Special characters reworked to be brought in line with current other SM codecies. New special characters would be okay.

3. Deathwing WS5(They are suposidly considered 'the best/greatest warriors in the Imperium') and a rule making them only scatter D6 on a deepstrike(they are known more than any other 1st company terminators for their "devasting teleporting attacks")

4. Points reworked to be brought in line with everything else.

5. Scouts as troops(like other SM codecies) and the updated Venerable Dreadnaught option.

6. New wargear options for characters like Artificer armour for the captains and such, along with new wargear specific to the DA as a whole.

7. Something special for the Interrogater-Chaplains.

8. New Librarian powers.

9. Company vets as Sternguard/Vanguard

 

That's really all I could think of off the top of my head that would make sense. Most of it is of course reworking the codex to be in line with the other new space marine codex chapter books. Now that is rules. How about models?

 

1. Terminators with robes! We have Ravenwing models, so why not have Deathwing specific ones as well?

2. A Belial model with all 3 weapon options.

3. Some new unit.

4. Another new unit.

5. A Interrogator-Chaplain model other than Asmodai(not of a fan of it at all).

[Brother Immolator]

2 comments

 

I like the paladin equivalent idea but...Not in power armor and not in generic terminator armor and with other wargear than the already known for termies.

 

Perhaps a unit wearing ancient heresy era terminator armor(after all we hoard out tech and relics well)spotting heaven fall blades(with rules different than masterwork relic blades)and a modified version of the stormbolter with some rules for it as well.Perhaps having access to a unique type of heavy weapon option only for themselves.3+ Inv by default increase in BS and W and be able to be taken only as a command squad by Az,Bel or Shaphon only one per game.

 

Company vets,sternguard and vanquad:Keep the company vets as a name and allow them to come dirt cheap with only a bolt pistol,power armor and grenades.Then allow them to be given access to BOTH the sternguard and vanquard wargear and rules.

To clarify:The ability to equip the squad with both power weapons and bolters with special issue ammunition and jetpacks.OFC This would sky rocket the cost but it would be flexible:Want a ground unit with power weapons and lethal bolters?Done.Want jump pack infantry with bolters/relentless and special issue ammo?Done.Just pay the cost.

 

And who doesnt love jetbikes?

 

Lower the costs of our marines:Seriously they come to the cost of a PAGK squad.

 

Enter Shaphon as a char.

 

Rework costs for AZ:He is good but costs too much.

 

Either reintroduce the stubborn rule(though i hate to loose the mobility of my troops)or keep rights of battle.

 

Or libbys need some serious attention.If the LD value is supposed to be the equivalent of will in the table then ours must have max.

Also those powers we have are terrible,either give us something that is useful or at the very least allow us access to the codex powers.

[Payce]

As is being pointed out by others, the points costs have to be fixed. Likewise, transport capacity should be standardized - how this was overlooked in FAQ 1.1 when they even fixed PotMs is beyond me. I'm all for Dark Angels units being costed and weighted different by codex units (if they weren't, why even bother using the DA 'dex in the first place?), but dedicated transports should be universally costed.

 

Brother Immolator brings up the suggestion of rewriting RoB to provide armywide Stubborn instead of Ld10 - couldn't have said it better myself.

 

I would like to elaborate a bit on Brother Immolator and Sonofblood's suggestions regarding Company Veterans; I would like them to remain an elite choice, with roughly the same options as they have today. What I WOULD like to see, is the option to upgrade to Special Issue Ammunition, OR take Jump Packs at a relatively heavy cost. Basically, keep the unit, rebalance the points costs and allow them the upgrade to be Sternguard or Vanguard IF so desired. Whether taking Jump Packs should make them Fast Attack (to avoid a potential six jump units), or some other limitation (points weighing, 0-1, requires certain character upgrades to be allowed certain upgrades themselves etc.) to keep them as elites. Personally I'd enjoy seeing a 0-1 Company Vet unit entry of 5-10 Marine size with pretty much ALL upgrades allowed, within one paradigm or another, but never both.

 

I would like my Assault Squad to take sweet, precious Flamers. And Thunder Hammers. YES. Hammer time. And Sergeants generally being allowed Combi-weapons would be nice.

 

Unlike others, I think Scouts should remain an Elites choice, and retain our WS/BS 4. The Scout USR need to be added, however, like our codex counterparts. I'm torn on whether or not the cost should be balanced down to equal the codex - the upped cost should either be removed altogether since being Elites should be "pentaly" enough for the added combat skills; alternatively, they should get the camo cloaks as standard wargear covered by the cost, rather than a squad upgrade.

 

Finally, a wet and wild fantasy... I would like to see our Tactical Marines (and ONLY our Tacticals) being upped to around 19 points each, and getting Relentless. Granted, it would be retardedly powerful, but wouldn't it make playing regular non-Wing Dark Angels actually appeal? Some form of rule possibly tying this rule to Azrael or the Company Master (possibly replacing or upgrading Rites of Battle), or a 12" "aura" granting it to units within range of the character could work. Combining this with Stubborn (RoB change suggested, see above) would definitely need some serious cost weighing and careful balancing (such as possibly removing the Bolt Pistol from wargear to limit melee attacks), but it would certainly work well to make Tacticals actually being that "core" unit you want Marines to be.

[ellis_esquire]

I agree with a lot of the above re units and rules but fluff wise id like to see some clean up done.

 

1) Clear divisions between Deathwing as TERMINATORS vs. a CIRCE of MEMBERSHIP. ie who is in the deathwing but not in tactical dreadnought armour for example.

 

2) Clear defintion of role/hierarchical of Masters, grand Masters, Chapter masters etc.

 

3) Explanation of veterans role, abilities, ascension, and relation to *1) above!

 

4) Reaffirmation of plains world people story, or at least an indication this happened and is a cover up of a certain greater betrayal, rather than the mythical status its now reached. Maybe some play on the dark turning to light in armour colour.

 

5) More examples/stories of DA recruitment worlds.

 

6) A more defined explantion of the relationship between the DA legion and Mars.

 

7) More examples of the DA turning on other imperium armies when the fallen are involved.

 

8) More stories of interrogation by the chaplains - more chaplain hierarchy explanation.

 

9) More charachters heroic deeds explored.

 

 

I could fantasize about all this in half an hour - GW cant expand and correlate allt hese loose ends with their paid staff? Jeez

 

Oh, as for kits, robed termies, robed assault marines please!

 

Peace

[Grimdarkness]

Conformation that the plains world action only had 30 suits of TDA repainted ash white.

 

Reason why it takes 30 first company marines to test a hand full of boys.

 

I'd really like it if my green wing could compete with codex marine armies.

[Brother Immolator]

To my brother in arms ellis_esquire:Pardon me but i wont like to see the plains world incident explained any further.After all the imperium and the marines themselves are surrounded by half myths lies and legends.Let this act as the legend as it is no need to clarify it further.

 

Also I for some reason dont want to see robed terminators and assault marines...I like the robed them but not on terms and assault squads.Make them more ornate i say so we dont have to go to third parties for conversion bits.

[Bryan Blaire]

It's been done and discussed, but here's my fairly long list:

 

-Bring the DA/Unforgiven up to date with the current edition (or for the next edition if those core rules are already concrete and completely play tested prior to the DA codex development - i.e. don't use our codex to play-test the new edition/C:SM) and this time bring all following codexes up to parity, but please don't codex-creep them past ours or steal more from us for once.

 

-Give us access to the things that according to fluff originally were ours, such as the Mortis-style Dreadnought configuration that C:SM currently gets in the codex while we don't

 

-Instead of a 'Hunt for the Fallen' type rule (or rules), give us a few scenarios involving the concept, possibly involving some variant rules and the history of the scenario

 

-A cool, larger codex containing more images, history and other fluff or give us a condensed codex with only army rules and the list information and combine this with an optional companion book (for the larger codex or companion book, I'd prefer something full colored and priced per page like the Forgeworld books instead of the WHFB army books: FW books tend to be about $0.05/page cheaper)

 

-Increased DW squad size, if play-testing shows it isn't game-breaking

 

-Azrael upgraded, preferably with an adjustment to his weapons to keep him from being prevented from assaulting if they are used and a rule that indicates the DA are actually gene-progeny of one of the greatest Imperial strategists (if the GK get one, why not us?)

 

-A Belial that is cool and unique with rules and unique weapons (not generic multi-selections) that makes him interesting to take for himself, rather than simply because he grants Terminators as Elites+Troops (and included a way to use a Company Captain entry to take a 1st or 2nd Company Master, but with much toned down rules from the SCs)

 

-Heavenfall blades that are not simple master-crafted weapons, relic blades, master-crafted relic blades and are better than frost blades

 

-More special characters, especially from Successor chapters and more Successor fluff included

 

I also agree with the following points from above posters:

Droma's points: 5, 6, 7 (as an option for a RW command squad, but not a standard unit without a RW Co. Master), 8, 10, 12

Sonofblood's points: 1, last part of 3 (deep strike modification), 5, 6

Brother Immolator's point about adding Sapphon back in as a SC

Payce's point about fixing up all the transport capacities and costs

Ellis_Esquire's points:

-I agree with needing some fluff clean-up, but I'd instead of trying to clear up the 1st Company Deathwing vs. "Deathwing" as a circle, they should just clarify that the Deathwing is simply the first step and lowest level of moving into the Inner Circle, and as you move up, you retain all lower memberships, even if no longer in that circle level (or in the company). I also agree on the discussion of advancing in the chapter and roles. As far as expanding/explaining the "plain's world" incident, I'd prefer to see them expand the "mythical" elements of the DA. The "plain's world" doesn't have to be only Native American plains-dwellers influenced - there are plenty of similarities for "walking dead" and connections to warriors that could be used to expand on the idea: the Wild Hunt could be one potential source, including an interesting connotation with the hunt (and possibly never-ending hunt) aspect, with the Wild Hunt members sometimes being stated as "ghostly hunters" (white DW Terminators nod). I think expansion of the mythos surrounding the DA could be very interesting if done well.

 

As far as models I'd like to see:

-All new SC sculpts, preferably with some articulation points similar to Azrael's gun arm and the Terminator Captain's wrist on the sword arm, done in a way where hopefully there will be a little variation even in a stock model if people don't get into hugely involved conversion projects.

 

-Terminators with "robes" and a few cowled/hooded helmed heads or tabarded armor (similar to the Terminator Captain model) or even just a few loincloths/drapes ala the Justicar cloth for the GK kit (examples 3rd Ed Codex pg. 1, 23, 4th Ed Codex pg 42, 43, 47). Also, more ornate TDA with Deathwing icons and other ornate iconography (examples 3rd Ed Codex pg. 21, 23; 4th Ed Codex pg. 5, 16, 28, 42, 43) in the form of front chest pieces, ceremonial daggers that are highly needed, extra sets of DW legs and the possibility of DA style lightning claws, preferably based on Huron's "lion claws" style or the Wolf Guard ones (both of which are superior to the standard assault TDA ones).

 

-A Paladin/Honor Guard/Inner Circle Guard box with: 5 new robed leg poses (at least two being "moving"/non-static styles) with non-affixed back torsos to allow for more dynamic posing than the current robed Veteran set, 5 robed torsos (2 Mk7s, 1 Mk8, 1 Mk4, and 1 Mk3), 5 robed heads (1 non-helmed, 1 Mk4, 1 Mk3 style), 3 non-robed heads (2 knight styled, 1 no helm), as many DA styled weapons as possible (examples: swords: 3rd Ed Codex pg. 24, 4th Ed Codex pg. 36, 39) including skulls and winged swords on bolt & plasma pistols, special weapons, possibly a heavy weapon or two, and some more ornate bolters with DA iconography and at least one with a round ammo drum (pg 50, 4th Ed Codex), 6-7 backpacks and 15 or so ornate shoulder pads (with possibly 1-2 of them bearing lion heads - similar to the FW Huron and Astral Claw pads).

 

-DA specific chaplains based on (as closely as possible) the covers of the two DA (3rd & 4th Ed) codexes (they are just awesome)

[stonhinge]

Mortis dreadnought loadouts, some combination of the C:SM Ironclad/Venerable dreadnoughts for a DW dread. Probably too much to allow it to DW Assault, hehe. But seriously, if a 1st company member was to be interred into a dreadnought, it'd seem silly to put him in the same style of sarcophagus as the "normal" dreads. Beef up his armor, he's used to getting stuck in.

 

Better psykers, that's a given. Well, a lot of the HQ characters need some tweaking. Sammael is probably the one that needs it the least. I'd like to see Belial's other options also be master-crafted, simply because he's Master of the Deathwing, and while he'd use what was appropriate to the job needing to be done, the Techmarines would make sure he got the best of the lot.

 

Return of the "jink" save for Ravenwing. Skilled Rider at the very least.

 

Allow Veteran squads to either go all Vanguard or Sternguard style.

 

Assault squads definitely need some tweaking.

 

I'd like to be able to make a greenwing army and have it perform just as well as picking the same list from C:SM, for similar points cost. Basically, anyone who picks up the AoBR box, and decides on marines, should be able to pick whatever SM codex they want, and all perform and cost similarly. Well, except for the terminators, because ours are way cooler. They can cost about as much more as they do now. (Ha! Just noticed that SM assault terminator squads can't take a chainfist. Poor buggers.)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I'd like to see the V3.5 Codex again with revised points cost. :yes: Probably a couple of new toys added like Mortis and LR Redeemer.

[Howloutloud]

I would like to see things that were strictly Dark Angels before returned to us:

Mortis Dread

All Terminator Armies

Stubborn

 

However that would entail the re-writing of Codex Space Marines, Codex Grey Knights and Codex Space Wolves... :yes:

 

I also really liked the way they changed it in third so that we were more plasma based, so how about reduced prices on plasma weaponry. Like 10 points for a plasma gun rather than 15.

 

There's a couple of other small things, but that's the big ones for me.