Non-Psychic, Non-Rubric Thousand Sons

[Eerie]

I got a background question.

 

What would happen if you use a dead Thousand Son sorcerer's geneseed to create new Marines? It is known that you can not harvest progenoids from the Rubrics because they are dust, but what about the sorcerers? They are still ordinary Astartes after all, with a body of flesh and organs, and thus, progenoid glands.

 

So, if you extract the progenoids from a killed sorcerer and implant them into a suitable human candidate, what would happen? Would Ahriman's spell carry over and turn the recruit into a Rubric? Would the spell not carry over and the new recruit fall victim to the flesh change once again? Or would we basically have a normal, non-psychic, non-Rubric Thousand Son as in the pre-Heresy days? Anyone got info or speculation on this?

[KaosRaptor]

I don't think we really have enough information about the Rubric itself to know whether that would carry over or not. That said it is Thousand Sons gene seed, which was already extremely prone to mutation, and would now likely be affected by constant use of sorcery and time within the Warp/Eye of Terror.

I think if the Rubric didn't pass on, you would likely have marine that could easily fall to mutation, but you would have a higher chance of psychic potential as well. I guess it would be just like before the Heresy, except the already existant side-effects would now be amplified.

Hope that helps, but others here may know more than me.

[BassWave]

I think that the thousand sons actually only recruit psykers to replenish there sorcerer numbers. To replenish rubrics, they could just capture other marines and turn them into rubrics.

[Menkeroth]

It's hardly possible. The Rubric of Ahriman is a unique spell and it doesn't turn into them usual marines. No, TSons replenish their number by recalling the spirits of the dead rubrics into their new bodies as any csm doesn't disappear in the Warp as usual people and loyalists.

[Talon Darkshade]

I remember reading somewhere (possible fan fic) that Thousand Sons recruit cultists from all over, and of those cultists the weed out the psykers to apprentice. Many die in thier masters sacrifices or craftings but those that show true talent of the art of warp manipulation are tested further and then placed into the process of becoming space marines assuming the path from cultist to Sorcerer doesn't result in spawndom along the way.

 

As for rubrics each rubric is bound to thier armor in such a way that their damaged husks must be repaired before the sorcerers can summon them back from the warp and back to thier suits of armor. Loss the armor to plunder or failure and loss the brother. They can't just make new armor and put the spirit back in or else they could make armies of suits and just smash a bound daemon inside it. Spirit of the brother and his armor are one.

 

Some speculations from what I have read over the years, take it with a grain of salt.

[Eerie]

Thank you for the answers! :)

 

So, basically, we don't know what happens. Would be an interesting thing to explore, fluff-wise.

 

Yet I also assume that the Rubric of Ahriman can not be easily replicated. It took hidden lore from the Book of Magnus, it took Ahriman who was the best sorcerer in a legion of sorcerers and he still needed assistance from his most talented fellow sorcerers. And, they were on the planet of sorcerers when they did it, if that plays a role. So it seems to be one of the most daring and complicated spells in the 40k universe. Maybe the most complicated one at all. To simply assume that every Thousand Son psyker can repeat that at the drop of a hat seems a bit far-fetched. However, is there anything official about how the Thousand Sons replenish their numbers or just what people assume is happening?

[Narse]

Maybe the most complicated one at all. To simply assume that every Thousand Son psyker can repeat that at the drop of a hat seems a bit far-fetched. However, is there anything official about how the Thousand Sons replenish their numbers or just what people assume is happening?

 

I agree with pretty much everything you stated. As far as I know nothing official.

 

My thoughts are that they must just move to new suits of armor. Considering warp entities are reused, it makes sense that with no mass to move it would be easier to move a soul then create another one. This could also explain why they need orders, being reused multiple times must have some negative effects....

[Julgolax]

First of all, I love the Thousand Sons but I have to say this Legion in particular makes the least sense of all space marine legions. Their Primarch is a mutant, totally the opposite of what the Emperor's domain is about but was allowed to be the source of a space marine legion's geneseed. The Primarch was a mutant and a powerful psychic but in spite of having a lot more sorcerers than any other legion, why weren't they all psychic? If the Primarch was a mutant with red skin, than why wasn't the rest of the legion mutants with red skin? The Rubric of Ahriman was cast and all those who for some reason were NOT Psykers were immediately sealed in their power armor and basically their souls trapped in dead bodies survived for ten thousand years. As far as I know, Psyker geneseeds do not get harvested for reuse, but are either left in there or something else happens to them. I would think if a chapter's librarians die, the geneseed is taken to be used elsewhere for astropaths or other psychic servants.

[Eerie]

First of all, I love the Thousand Sons but I have to say this Legion in particular makes the least sense of all space marine legions. Their Primarch is a mutant, totally the opposite of what the Emperor's domain is about but was allowed to be the source of a space marine legion's geneseed. The Primarch was a mutant and a powerful psychic but in spite of having a lot more sorcerers than any other legion, why weren't they all psychic? If the Primarch was a mutant with red skin, than why wasn't the rest of the legion mutants with red skin? The Rubric of Ahriman was cast and all those who for some reason were NOT Psykers were immediately sealed in their power armor and basically their souls trapped in dead bodies survived for ten thousand years. As far as I know, Psyker geneseeds do not get harvested for reuse, but are either left in there or something else happens to them. I would think if a chapter's librarians die, the geneseed is taken to be used elsewhere for astropaths or other psychic servants.

 

I must say I do not agree with some of your statements. In regards to being psychic and red skinned, I don't see that as a logic error. Not every legion looked like their primarchs. Sanguinius had angel wings, the Blood Angels not. Lorgar had golden or bronze skin, the Word Bearers not as far as I know.

And the psyker thing, it seems to not solely depend on the geneseed, but also on the aspirants' own psychic talent. Magnus was the only obvious psyker among the primarchs, yet every primarch / geneseed has created librarians or sorcerers. If the geneseed's influence was so strong that Magnus' would turn every aspirant into a psyker than you could evenly assume that the geneseed of those primarchs who did not show any psychic talent would kill off any nascent psychic abilities in their aspirants. Yet this does not happen. So we can only speculate that Magnus' geneseed seems to do a lot to boost the psychic abilities of his aspirants, more so than every other legion. However, if the aspirant utterly and completely lacks psychic talent*, even Magnus' geneseed will still not give it to him.

 

*Not talking of psychic nulls here, I just mean average people with little to no connection to the warp.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Other Primarchs were mutants, such as Sanguinius, Vulkan, Curze and Russ. Other Primarchs were psykers, such as Sanguinius, Curze and Lorgar. It wasn't only the non-psykers who got Rubric-ed, but also those whose powers were almost negligible. Remember, the Librarians we see and use are pretty damned powerful ones. Your average psyker is much less talented than that, ranging down to only getting vague premonitions, or feelings of deja-vu. Lastly, nothing has ever said that the geneseed of Librarians isn't harvested, and also, even if that's true I don't think the Thousand Sons are stupid enough to think "well, the only guys we have left with bodies are psykers, and some rule during the Great Crusade says we shouldn't harvest the geneseed of psykers. Even though we've rebelled with the express purpose of not following their laws, let's doom ourselves to extinction by not harvesting and using that geneseed".

[techsoldaten]

Maybe another way to frame the question is how to frame the fluff to explain non-Rubric marines in a Thousand Sons army. For that matter, how to explain Rubric marines in a non-TS Tzeentch army, or in another army like the Black Legion.

 

Dealing with this issue now. I just came into a lot of TS troops (mostly older models) and am trying to decide how to use them. On the one hand, I could build them into my Black Legion force, on the other hand, I have enough models I could make a pure TS army. But I don't think I would want my troops to just be Rubric marines. I would want some regular CSMs and Havocs, at a minimum, to round out the force.

 

Wondering how to make this actually fit with the fluff?

 

From what I understand:

 

- The most powerful psykers in the TS became sorcerors.

- Everyone else became Rubrik marines.

- There were only about 1,200 troops from the original legion left after the Space Wolves came down on them.

- In the third edition of the Codex, all troops in a TS army had to have the rubrik sign. While the second edition did permit mixed units, it was vastly different in other ways, meaning this issue is unique to the 4th edition rules we play with now.

 

What I think it gets into is how the Thousand Sons keep up their numbers. To account for regular CSMs, the fluff would have to account for having marines who were not affected by the original Rubrik, either because they joined later or because they were simply not affected in the first place. Or, given that it is Tzeentch, it could be something else.

 

The simplest answer is that they must still be recruiting new marines, and maybe Rubrik status is seen as a high honor / punishment for failure. It would also seem to imply that sorcerors can still bestow it, perhaps as an ultimate sanction before death for fallen marines or ones that are becoming too mutated. Any CSM on a TS force would simply be in line to have this happen to him. This would be in line with an explanation that has the gene seed from sorcerors going to create new TS marines, they would simply be getting their stock from the sources that are still available.

 

A more complex answer could be that, given the timelessness and formlessness of the Warp, Tzeentch has plans for his servants beyond living in a linear fashion. Maybe there are only 1,200 Thousand Sons marines still left and that is it, period. But each one is being fielded at different points in time and space such that being destroyed one day does not mean they will not be there to fight the next. As far as the non-Rubrik CSMs go, the spell separated their minds from their bodies and these are the bodies being put to work! This theory would be more in line with the 'destroyer' stats that were associated with TS troops in the second edition, where they could not be hurt by weapons with less than strength 5. Harder marines mean they stay around longer.

 

Not sure what the answer is here, but it certainly gets the imagination going! One question, has GW ever commented on the quality of the TS gene seed at any point? I can think of comments about Death Guard, Khorne, Night Lords, and maybe some others, but nothing about the Thousand Sons. I just wonder if it has ever been mentioned, it seems like this would be important for understanding whether or not the TS actually have any stock to reproduce.

[the jeske]

Not sure what the answer is here, but it certainly gets the imagination going! One question, has GW ever commented on the quality of the TS gene seed at any point?

pre rubric they were mutating very fast which could have ended with the legion dead within a generation or two . Even if there is an actual body inside the sorc armor[some dont have it they are just suits of armor only unlike battlebrothers they are more aware of what is going around them] the gene seed would be unusable .

[Hellios]

If you made a new 1kson marine the rubric would not be applied, it was a one time deal. If the Blood Ravens are "loyalist" 1ksons this would be proof. I imagine the rubric effected all the 1ksons on the planet of sorcerers... Which is almost the entire legion but it is possible none rubric marines existed elsewhere.

 

It is easy to have rubric marines in another war band or legion such as the Black Legion. 1kson sorcerers often hire their services out to other war bands... Sometimes just for money/goods but often for a specific reason... part of the great plan or maybe they are after a specific artifact that they will find in War zone X but they are not strong enough to go after it by themselves.

 

Rubrics spirits are summoned back into their suits of armor... I'm not sure that they need their original armor... I think the number of rubrics is limited by the number of souls who suffered from the rubric. As for putting daemons into armor... This can be done but it wouldn't be a rubric... It would be daemon possessed armor... Something more akin to a defiler than a rubric.

[Furniture]

Rubrics can be summoned again - their souls don't die, so as long as they can craft a new suit of armor to replace the one that was destroyed, then they can possess the new armor with the soul of the "dead" Thousand Son. In that way, their Rubric numbers continue to be replenished even though there were only a little less than 1000 of them to begin with.

 

As for sorcerors, I think that if you really wanted to use their gene-seed as a sorce for non-rubric marines for your army it would be cool to make them possessed marines to represent the mutations that would no doubt take a toll on their numbers. Or you could just use various bitz from the possessed box to kitbash your regular Chaos Marines and make them look like many have been stricken by mutations. And while it would not be very effective on the battlefield, it would be a perfect excuse to field some Chaos Spawn to represent the worst of the mutations.

 

To be honest, I don't think it was ever explicitly described what the pacts were that Ahriman made when he made the Rubric. It could be that any new Marines that they create are claimed by the Rubric once they are ready for their suit of Armor and turned to dust, as the deal was probably a simple "all Thousand Sons will be free from mutation forever more." That's what I like to assume, but of course, it is open to interpretation and anybody can

[Ethrion]

Rubrics spirits are summoned back into their suits of armor... I'm not sure that they need their original armor... I think the number of rubrics is limited by the number of souls who suffered from the rubric.

 

Rubrics can be summoned again - their souls don't die, so as long as they can craft a new suit of armor to replace the one that was destroyed, then they can possess the new armor with the soul of the "dead" Thousand Son. In that way, their Rubric numbers continue to be replenished even though there were only a little less than 1000 of them to begin with.

 

Interesting...where have you seen this said in the fluff background by the way?

[Eerie]

I think we do not have any official background sources about Thousand Sons that are neither sorcerers nor Rubrics. If there are ordinary CSM in a Thousand Son army, they must come from a different legion by origin. It is not unheard of that CSM swap their loyalties, or align themselves with some powerful leader even if he is from a different legion. Actually, it is very common. Thus, I would see no problem if someone writes a background about his army in which a Thousand Son sorcerer has managed to draw renegades from other warbands or legions into his ranks. They may very well paint their armor blue and gold and eventually even bear the sign of the Thousand Sons on their shoulder pads, but still, they would not be Thousand Sons by origin, and not of Magnus' geneseed.

 

In regards to the "re-summoning a fallen Rubric", I think this is just inofficial fan consensus. There is absolutely nothing ifficial about how the Thousand Sons replenish their numbers.

 

Someone mentioned that probably the geneseed of the sorcerers is very corrupted and mutated due to the extended warp exposure. I may try to argue that their geneseed must be pure and uncontaminated despite it. Why? Simply because that was exactly the intention of the Rubric of Ahriman. Let's not forget that the original intention of Ahriman was not to turn his brothers into dust. That was accidental and not planned. What Ahriman had originally intended was to protect his brothers from mutation. But unfortunately it only worked for those maybe 10 % of the legion that today we know as sorcerers. For these 10% however, the spell worked perfectly. From that day on they were able to wield the powers of magic without fear of mutation. So, in conclusion, despite their constant and heavy exposure to the warp, their geneseed should have remained pure.

[Furniture]

There is no official answer as to how the Thousand Sons replenish their ranks, the only official absolute is that all of their non-sorceror troops are Rubric Marines of some sort (they also have Rubrics in Terminator Armor). The closest we have to information on summoning fallen Thousand Sons off the top of my head comes from that book Grey Hunter, where they try to summon the souls of fallen Thousand Sons to possess mortal bodies, who then turn into the Rubric Marine. However, that incident was probably not exactly how they normally do it - mostly out of neccessity since it wasn't on the Planet of Sorcerors, and they didn't have tons of empty suits of armor to possess.

 

It is mostly a fan consensus, in lieu of official information, that the Thousand Sons repair or capture suits of armor and the souls can then possess these.

[Lord_Caerolion]

If you made a new 1kson marine the rubric would not be applied, it was a one time deal. If the Blood Ravens are "loyalist" 1ksons this would be proof. I imagine the rubric effected all the 1ksons on the planet of sorcerers... Which is almost the entire legion but it is possible none rubric marines existed elsewhere.

 

It is easy to have rubric marines in another war band or legion such as the Black Legion. 1kson sorcerers often hire their services out to other war bands... Sometimes just for money/goods but often for a specific reason... part of the great plan or maybe they are after a specific artifact that they will find in War zone X but they are not strong enough to go after it by themselves.

 

Rubrics spirits are summoned back into their suits of armor... I'm not sure that they need their original armor... I think the number of rubrics is limited by the number of souls who suffered from the rubric. As for putting daemons into armor... This can be done but it wouldn't be a rubric... It would be daemon possessed armor... Something more akin to a defiler than a rubric.

 

Actually, if the Blood Ravens are "loyalist" Thousand Sons, it'd be proof that the Rubric did carry over, because I don't see any Blood Ravens affected by the Flesh Change, do you? Sure, we don't have any dust-Ravens, but that just means they got the "sorceror" side of it. After all, if it didn't carry over, then they'd be dealing with pure Thousand Sons geneseed, with all the problems it inherently has.

[Hellios]

Actually, if the Blood Ravens are "loyalist" Thousand Sons, it'd be proof that the Rubric did carry over, because I don't see any Blood Ravens affected by the Flesh Change, do you? Sure, we don't have any dust-Ravens, but that just means they got the "sorceror" side of it. After all, if it didn't carry over, then they'd be dealing with pure Thousand Sons geneseed, with all the problems it inherently has.

 

Maybe... maybe not... data insufficient.

[Ethrion]

Well in Battle of the Fang

it quite clearly reads that after that battle the Thousand Sons were 'officially' no longer a legion because their numbers had been so reduced. This would mean that rubric marines cannot be re summoned. Ahriman "saved" them from the flesh change initially by sealing all non-psychic marines' souls in their armour but obliterating all other aspects of them. As soon as the armour is destroyed or opened the soul is lost.

 

If there was any possibility of re summoning then the Thousand Sons would still be at legion strength which it certainly isn't. Of course there isn't anything wrong in personal DIY warband background saying that a sorcerer has managed to resurrect his fallen warriors, but it isn't official canon sadly.

 

 

And regarding the Blood Ravens, they were no-where near the Eye of Terror and the Planet of the Sorcerers when Ahriman cast the rubric so they wouldn't have been caught in its wake. IF they were Thousand Sons in the first place! :huh:

[Eerie]

There were only ~1200 Thousand Sons left after the battle of Prospero to begin with (source: A Thousand Sons novel). So they were already well under legion strength when the Horus Heresy took off. Maybe (or maybe not...) they recruited a couple of new marines in the unknown span of time between the battle of Prospero and the Rubric of Ahriman, but even this would have hardly brought them back up to legion strength.

[Narse]

Well in Battle of the Fang

it quite clearly reads that after that battle the Thousand Sons were 'officially' no longer a legion because their numbers had been so reduced. This would mean that rubric marines cannot be re summoned. Ahriman "saved" them from the flesh change initially by sealing all non-psychic marines' souls in their armour but obliterating all other aspects of them. As soon as the armour is destroyed or opened the soul is lost.

 

If there was any possibility of re summoning then the Thousand Sons would still be at legion strength which it certainly isn't. Of course there isn't anything wrong in personal DIY warband background saying that a sorcerer has managed to resurrect his fallen warriors, but it isn't official canon sadly.

 

 

And regarding the Blood Ravens, they were no-where near the Eye of Terror and the Planet of the Sorcerers when Ahriman cast the rubric so they wouldn't have been caught in its wake. IF they were Thousand Sons in the first place! :P

 

Guess I better read that book, and Thousand Sons should cost alot more and be alot tougher if there are so few of them.

[Ethrion]

Well in Battle of the Fang

it quite clearly reads that after that battle the Thousand Sons were 'officially' no longer a legion because their numbers had been so reduced. This would mean that rubric marines cannot be re summoned. Ahriman "saved" them from the flesh change initially by sealing all non-psychic marines' souls in their armour but obliterating all other aspects of them. As soon as the armour is destroyed or opened the soul is lost.

 

If there was any possibility of re summoning then the Thousand Sons would still be at legion strength which it certainly isn't. Of course there isn't anything wrong in personal DIY warband background saying that a sorcerer has managed to resurrect his fallen warriors, but it isn't official canon sadly.

 

 

And regarding the Blood Ravens, they were no-where near the Eye of Terror and the Planet of the Sorcerers when Ahriman cast the rubric so they wouldn't have been caught in its wake. IF they were Thousand Sons in the first place! :)

 

Guess I better read that book, and Thousand Sons should cost alot more and be alot tougher if there are so few of them.

 

Yeah it is a fantastic story and a must read for Thousand Sons and those...dogs...

 

But noooOOOoo Thousand Sons shouldn't be anymore expensive LOL! :ph34r: but more badass yes please (though AP3 bolters is obscene)!

[Brother Nihm]

Rubrics spirits are summoned back into their suits of armor... I'm not sure that they need their original armor... I think the number of rubrics is limited by the number of souls who suffered from the rubric.

 

Rubrics can be summoned again - their souls don't die, so as long as they can craft a new suit of armor to replace the one that was destroyed, then they can possess the new armor with the soul of the "dead" Thousand Son. In that way, their Rubric numbers continue to be replenished even though there were only a little less than 1000 of them to begin with.

 

Interesting...where have you seen this said in the fluff background by the way?

It is in one of the Ragnar novels by Bill King, I forgot which one.

[*Furyou Miko]

One would think that it would be easier to bind daemons into suits of armour than to ressurrect Thousand Sons.

 

After all, people bind daemons into objects all the time (Possessed is a what, 15 point vehicle upgrade?), and you can pretty much just grab any old daemon nearby and stuff it into the object, whereas you have to find a specific non-daemonic soul to ressurrect a Rubrik.

 

of course, a daemon in a suit of power armour won't be as good as a Rubrik - You're still liable to get a Horror or Flamer, after all, and those are only WS2 / BS 3 or so.