Rhino v. Psyback

[jhrovii]

Let’s talk about Rhinos and Psybacks. Specifically, let’s compare 2 Psycannon-Knights popping out the top hatch against a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter with Psybolt Ammunition during a single shooting phase.

 

 

The number of hits out of 3 twin-linked shots at BS 4 is 2.666.

The number of hits out of 4 regular shots at BS 4 is 2.666.

They give the same amount of hits.

 

On the move at 24", 2 Psycannons get you .988 dead MEQs.

On the move at 36”, 1 Psyback gets you .740 dead MEQs.

Even on the move, Psycannons are 30% more effective for killing Beakies.

 

On the move at 24", 2 Psycannons get you .887 penetrating hits against AV11.

On the move at 36", 1 Psyback gets you .443 penetrating hits against AV11.

Even on the move, Psycannons are twice as effective for popping weak transports.

 

On the move at 24”, 2 Psycannons get you .444 penetrating hits against AV12.

On the move at 36", 1 Psyback gets you .000 penetrating hits against AV12.

Even on the move, Psycannons are infinitely more effective for popping strong transports.

 

 

And so on…

 

Sure, the Psyback is just 10 points more than the Rhino. Tack it on to MSU-style Purifier Squad and you got a good deal on additional firepower. But really, how long is that Razorback going to stick around? Is it really worth a 25% increase in the cost of the transport? In the case of Purifier spam, you could save up to 60 points and increase your killiness while onboard. For Purifiers the Psyback is only good if you need that extra 12” of range (while rushing towards the opponent in an assault-heavy metagame) and if it can stick around after it drops its cargo (without getting its weapon destroyed). Is slightly longer range and small chance of long-term killiness worth the expense, decreased per-turn effectiveness, and fewer valid targets?

 

 

Sure, the Psyback allows you to take MSU-style Strike Squads. For the love of Mork, why though? Compare these two units:

 

185pts- 4 Purifiers (2 Psycannons), 1 Knight of the Flame (Daemonhammer), Rhino

170pts- 4 Strikes (1 Psycannon), 1 Justicar (Daemonhammer), Psyback

 

For 15 more points you trade a crappy turret (yeah, I said it) for increased killiness while onboard, double the attacks, double the heavy weapons, and a close-combat psychic power. PURIFIERS are a prime MSU-style unit. STRIKES are not. I’m not saying combat-squadding is not sometimes worth it- I’m just saying Psybacks aren’t worth it unless you need to combat squad the 2 psycannon guys to outside of the Razorback (So they can get summarily razed) or plan on that Psyback being the unkillable, unstoppable, AV11 APC of doom.

 

 

Look, this isn’t 4th edition. Transports aren’t deathtraps- you want your Knights in them to avoid pie plates of doom for a turn or two. The point is Psybacks are worth the points when its shooting and the transported Psycannons’ shooting overlap. They overlap when either the Psyback sticks around till turn 3-4 or the models deploy outside the transport to begin with (that’s IF they are in range turn one while you stick in cover- or charge across the open field to get range, be my guest). The fact is, Grey Knight Psybacks just aren’t that killy and the 10 points might be better spent elsewhere. Obsession over Psyback spam can be detrimental to your list when included in suboptimal units, as well.

 

 

*EDIT*- So yeah... What do you think?

[Morghoul]

Your mathhammer is correct.... BUT (there's everytime a but^^)

it comes down on how YOU use the Transport.

 

In my own playstyle I use the firepower of both, the Psyback AND the Purifier Squad.

After the 1st Turn (or IN the first turn if i go first) all of my squads dismount to bring maximum firepower to the enemy.

If you stay in your rhino you waste 6+ Stormbolter shots...

 

Normally my Psyflemen pop the enemy transports, I don't need Psybacks/Psycannons for that. They kill everything that falls out =)

[BrotherWasted]

I never take Rhinos. I always take 10-mans and a Psyback now. Combat Squad down your Knights if you feel a burning desire to get inside them.

 

You didn't need mathhammer to tell you Psycannons are better than Heavy Bolters; all you had to do was look at the statlines. Higher Strength and more shots always equals more kills.

 

But, now, with a portable S6 Heavy Bolter escorting my squads, the Razors can pop transports while I fire at the troops that come out of them with my Squads, all on Turn 1. By the time my opponent actually gets to pop some of them, I've usually caused a decent amount of deaths already. Tack on a Storm Bolter to protect them against Weapon Destroyed results.

[the jeske]

if you play a puri list the razors give you options for las/plas arment the rest of the GK list wont give you[unless you buy a LR or SW]. and this is more or less where their usefulness ends. psybacks ? no use in a list that spams psycanons and buffed up twin linked auto canons already.

[jeffersonian000]

You should run your numbers in bother the "24" and under range" and the "over 24" range".

 

On the move at 36", 2 Psycannons get you .000 dead MEQs.

On the move at 36”, 1 Psyback gets you .740 dead MEQs.

Even on the move, Psycannons are too short of range to kill Beakies.

 

On the move at 36", 2 Psycannons get you .000 penetrating hits against AV11.

On the move at 36", 1 Psyback gets you .443 penetrating hits against AV11.

Even on the move, Psycannons are too short of range for popping weak transports.

 

On the move at 36”, 2 Psycannons get you .000 penetrating hits against AV12.

On the move at 36", 1 Psyback gets you .000 penetrating hits against AV12.

Even on the move, Psycannons are infinitely just the same for popping strong transports at range. :D

 

SJ

[jhrovii]

You should run your numbers in bother the "24" and under range" and the "over 24" range".

 

On the move at 36", 2 Psycannons get you .000 dead MEQs.

On the move at 36”, 1 Psyback gets you .740 dead MEQs.

Even on the move, Psycannons are too short of range to kill Beakies.

 

On the move at 36", 2 Psycannons get you .000 penetrating hits against AV11.

On the move at 36", 1 Psyback gets you .443 penetrating hits against AV11.

Even on the move, Psycannons are too short of range for popping weak transports.

 

On the move at 36”, 2 Psycannons get you .000 penetrating hits against AV12.

On the move at 36", 1 Psyback gets you .000 penetrating hits against AV12.

Even on the move, Psycannons are infinitely just the same for popping strong transports at range. :D

 

SJ

I pretty much dedicated everything after these paragraphs to weighing the pros and cons of the Psyback turret. Things like you're rushing towards the opponent, in an assault-heavy metagame there's a good chance your opponent is closing you as well, and in a spam list (where psybacks are often seen) do you really need to shoot across the board from your furthest transport? 30" range seems pretty good, I'm not sure why 42" "assault cannon" shots would be that much better or a necessity when you'll have several psyflemen.

[jeffersonian000]

My point was that every unit has its place. When you break down performance based on a range set, you should never negate the full spectrum of the range set you are dealing with. Plot everything out, look for where the data points cluster, then draw your line. In the above examples, the data set should have been restricted to the 0-24"+6"move range, and not the 0-36"+6"move range.

 

I'm pretty sure you meant to show the difference between a Twin-linked Assault Cannon with Psybolts versus a set of full-on Psycannons in a Rhino. If so, then all of your bullet points should have been in the "On the move at 24" " bracket and not the 24" vs 36" brackets you noted.

 

Besides, I thought it was funny. :P

 

SJ

[BrotherWasted]

Sure, the Psyback is just 10 points more than the Rhino. Tack it on to MSU-style Purifier Squad and you got a good deal on additional firepower. But really, how long is that Razorback going to stick around? Is it really worth a 25% increase in the cost of the transport? In the case of Purifier spam, you could save up to 60 points and increase your killiness while onboard. For Purifiers the Psyback is only good if you need that extra 12” of range (while rushing towards the opponent in an assault-heavy metagame) and if it can stick around after it drops its cargo (without getting its weapon destroyed). Is slightly longer range and small chance of long-term killiness worth the expense, decreased per-turn effectiveness, and fewer valid targets?

 

Sure, the Psyback allows you to take MSU-style Strike Squads. For the love of Mork, why though? Compare these two units:

 

185pts- 4 Purifiers (2 Psycannons), 1 Knight of the Flame (Daemonhammer), Rhino

170pts- 4 Strikes (1 Psycannon), 1 Justicar (Daemonhammer), Psyback

 

For 15 more points you trade a crappy turret (yeah, I said it) for increased killiness while onboard, double the attacks, double the heavy weapons, and a close-combat psychic power. PURIFIERS are a prime MSU-style unit. STRIKES are not. I’m not saying combat-squadding is not sometimes worth it- I’m just saying Psybacks aren’t worth it unless you need to combat squad the 2 psycannon guys to outside of the Razorback (So they can get summarily razed) or plan on that Psyback being the unkillable, unstoppable, AV11 APC of doom.

 

I can take 6 MSU Strike Squads. I can only take 3 MSU Purifer Squads. And I am not about to start running Crowe just to unlock Purifier MSU.

 

MSU Strike Squads do just fine. Getting that extra Psycannon into a 5-Man Purifier Squad is awesome. But I don't want to be sacrificing a HQ slot to take Crowe. I take 4 MSU Strikes and 2 MSU Purifier Squads plus my Grandmaster as my core. The Psyback bring extra shooting. If you want to keep your Purifiers inside the Rhino and rely only on your Psycannons to shoot things, fine. But if you want to bring all of your guns to bear on something, you run up into cover, disembark, then fire everything - the Squad and the Razorback. That is much more effective than leaving your Purifiers inside the Rhino just to shoot 4 Psycannons shots.

 

And, no. Rhinos and Razors just don't last long enough to keep your Knights inside. Get them out there, shooting as much as they can. Shoot while you move. Firing with 5 Knights/Purifiers + a Razorback is superior to just firing 2 Psycannons out of a Rhino hatch.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To the OP - this was a great post !! I had never really thought about it before now... Definitely the rhino seems to be the way to go.

 

G

[stephane4985]

And, no. Rhinos and Razors just don't last long enough to keep your Knights inside. Get them out there, shooting as much as they can. Shoot while you move. Firing with 5 Knights/Purifiers + a Razorback is superior to just firing 2 Psycannons out of a Rhino hatch.

 

QFT.

 

GK are more effective outside of their transport. So having a psyback for added firepower and more importantly, becoming a threat that your opponent can't ignore is really worth it and can impact the game.

[Simo429]

Sure, the Psyback is just 10 points more than the Rhino. Tack it on to MSU-style Purifier Squad and you got a good deal on additional firepower. But really, how long is that Razorback going to stick around? Is it really worth a 25% increase in the cost of the transport? In the case of Purifier spam, you could save up to 60 points and increase your killiness while onboard. For Purifiers the Psyback is only good if you need that extra 12” of range (while rushing towards the opponent in an assault-heavy metagame) and if it can stick around after it drops its cargo (without getting its weapon destroyed). Is slightly longer range and small chance of long-term killiness worth the expense, decreased per-turn effectiveness, and fewer valid targets?

 

Sure, the Psyback allows you to take MSU-style Strike Squads. For the love of Mork, why though? Compare these two units:

 

185pts- 4 Purifiers (2 Psycannons), 1 Knight of the Flame (Daemonhammer), Rhino

170pts- 4 Strikes (1 Psycannon), 1 Justicar (Daemonhammer), Psyback

 

For 15 more points you trade a crappy turret (yeah, I said it) for increased killiness while onboard, double the attacks, double the heavy weapons, and a close-combat psychic power. PURIFIERS are a prime MSU-style unit. STRIKES are not. I’m not saying combat-squadding is not sometimes worth it- I’m just saying Psybacks aren’t worth it unless you need to combat squad the 2 psycannon guys to outside of the Razorback (So they can get summarily razed) or plan on that Psyback being the unkillable, unstoppable, AV11 APC of doom.

 

I can take 6 MSU Strike Squads. I can only take 3 MSU Purifer Squads. And I am not about to start running Crowe just to unlock Purifier MSU.

 

MSU Strike Squads do just fine. Getting that extra Psycannon into a 5-Man Purifier Squad is awesome. But I don't want to be sacrificing a HQ slot to take Crowe. I take 4 MSU Strikes and 2 MSU Purifier Squads plus my Grandmaster as my core. The Psyback bring extra shooting. If you want to keep your Purifiers inside the Rhino and rely only on your Psycannons to shoot things, fine. But if you want to bring all of your guns to bear on something, you run up into cover, disembark, then fire everything - the Squad and the Razorback. That is much more effective than leaving your Purifiers inside the Rhino just to shoot 4 Psycannons shots.

 

And, no. Rhinos and Razors just don't last long enough to keep your Knights inside. Get them out there, shooting as much as they can. Shoot while you move. Firing with 5 Knights/Purifiers + a Razorback is superior to just firing 2 Psycannons out of a Rhino hatch.

This to me sums it all up.

 

Yeah purifiers are great but paying the Crowe tax just negates their usefulness. We have too many tournaments that ban special characters to build a tournament army around him.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I still prefer giving an "assault cannon" razorback psybolt ammo as it's then literally a twin linked psycannon razorback... Forgeworld does have that nifty turret after all...

 

It makes for a bit nicer comparison in my mind that way :(

[TheDarkOne]

to shift gears a bit, what does everyone think of the "Twin linked Psycannon" Razorback?

 

Too expensive?

 

Indispensable?

 

Garbage?

 

anyone used one?

[stephane4985]

I think it cost too much. You're spending almost as much for the upgrade as the cost of the razorback. For me I think it doesn't make any sense. Those points could be better spent elsewhere. But then again, it is only 5 points more (with psy ammo) than a twin-link lascannon razorback. So maybe it has its use if you really are lacking in anti-tank. (because psycannon are nearly as effective as lascannon for anti-tank, if not better)

[BrotherWasted]

Aside from range, they're better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Most units in the codex are expensive. The rhino with two cannons inside naturally takes advantage of what you already have. The pysback is pretty darn good too and to me is a bargain for the points. Either way from a power armor PoV is pretty darn good.

 

G :lol:

[Crynn]

They really are very different. There are times when you want to have a ten man unit and be able to move it around and you physically need a rhino, remember 10 man units are the only units that should have psybolt ammo and that is a very good upgrade, in that way the rhino ahs some advantages but then again you have to get out of your rhino to use them. With five man units, the razorback transports as well as a rhino however has a turret that is not as good as the 2 psycannons that may shoot out of it. Again remember that there is only two psycannons if you take purifers otherwise you have combat squaded a 10 man strike unit or you have the whole thing inside the rhino and are wasting 16 str 4-5 shots. The rhino I beleive is better only for transporting. If you take crowe and have 5 man purifier units with 2 psycannosn then sure it's not bad but under any other application I would take the razorback personally.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[yperihitikos]

to shift gears a bit, what does everyone think of the "Twin linked Psycannon" Razorback?

 

Too expensive?

 

Indispensable?

 

Garbage?

 

anyone used one?

 

 

They are only for Coteaz tank lists and they work only when you spam them. In power armour lists they are not affordable and they have low survivability due to lack of alternative targets.

 

My points against razorbacks in power armoured lists:

 

-Grey knights are good against infantry

-Psycannons are good against infantry and vehicles

-They need more anti-tank weapons

-Grey Knights in power armour may need transports

 

-Rhinos and Razorbacks bring mobility

-Rhinos let you fire anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons

 

-Razorbacks stops you from using your anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons

-Razorbacks with 2linked heavy bolters bring anti-infantry support when every model in your list has already anti-infantry weapons.

-Razorbacks with anti-tank weapons are expensive and the content is far more expensive which lead to few vehicles that can be taken out in one turn.

-Razorbacks take out points that could be used for more anti-tank weapons.

-With razorbacks your squad has to be deployed outside to use their anti-tank weapons. That squad is a primary target and is as vulnerables as it would be if it didn't have a transport.

[Crynn]

to shift gears a bit, what does everyone think of the "Twin linked Psycannon" Razorback?

 

Too expensive?

 

Indispensable?

 

Garbage?

 

anyone used one?

 

 

They are only for Coteaz tank lists and they work only when you spam them. In power armour lists they are not affordable and they have low survivability due to lack of alternative targets.

 

My points against razorbacks in power armoured lists:

 

-Grey knights are good against infantry

-Psycannons are good against infantry and vehicles

-They need more anti-tank weapons

-Grey Knights in power armour may need transports

 

-Rhinos and Razorbacks bring mobility

-Rhinos let you fire anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons

 

-Razorbacks stops you from using your anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons

-Razorbacks with 2linked heavy bolters bring anti-infantry support when every model in your list has already anti-infantry weapons.

-Razorbacks with anti-tank weapons are expensive and the content is far more expensive which lead to few vehicles that can be taken out in one turn.

-Razorbacks take out points that could be used for more anti-tank weapons.

-With razorbacks your squad has to be deployed outside to use their anti-tank weapons. That squad is a primary target and is as vulnerables as it would be if it didn't have a transport.

 

Sure except that for ten more points you get a 3 twin linked strength 6 shots which are actually rather reasonable against light mech. You don't lose anything if you just hop out of your ride which most GK players to maxamize their storm bolter effectiveness. Anti tank should also come from psyfleman dreads and the gk exit their thransports to blast the units that were inside the transport that the dread or the razorback just destroyed. Many eldar lists function purely off strength 6 with re-rolls to hit, do not under estimate what that 10 points is actually giving you.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[boreas]

I guess the whole depends on your most common opponents also... I face nids and IG a lot more than any other army. So I really want to keep my whole unit inside a tank when templates start raining or Ymargl genestealers start popping out... Sure, rhinos are cardboard boxes, but they still give you 1-2 turns of protection and mobility, which is quite enough to position your units and still have those psycannon shooting.

 

It might come down to terrain (less LOS makes those psyback less useful), cover (more cover means you might need less protection from a rhino) or a lot of other factors.

 

Phil

[yperihitikos]

Sure except that for ten more points you get a 3 twin linked strength 6 shots which are actually rather reasonable against light mech. You don't lose anything if you just hop out of your ride which most GK players to maxamize their storm bolter effectiveness. Anti tank should also come from psyfleman dreads and the gk exit their thransports to blast the units that were inside the transport that the dread or the razorback just destroyed. Many eldar lists function purely off strength 6 with re-rolls to hit, do not under estimate what that 10 points is actually giving you.

 

Regards,

Crynn

 

The main tank threat comes from vehicles with AV12-14. Predator tanks and land raiders, eldar tanks, imperial guard tanks.

Or anything near 6 las/plas razorbacks, 3 predators and some typhoons.

 

I don't consider the razorbacks useless, but inappropriate in grey knight lists.

Let's take a GK razorspam list, for example, a GM, 2 basic purifier squads, 6 basic strike squads, 8 razorbacks and 3 psyflemen dreadnoughts. 10 psycannons in total and 20 KPs.

 

When your infantry is embarked you have only 3 real anti-tank units to counter at least 6 enemy tanks with anti-tank weapons and a couple more with mixed weaponry. Imagine what will happen every time that you won't get the first turn. Will you have enough units to shoot back? Will you disembark your troops?

 

What will you shoot at with your storm bolters when you disembark? Infantry or tanks? Why did you took the psycannon? To shoot infantry or tanks? Since psycannons are far more cost effective against tanks than the razorbacks you should shoot tanks and with the razorbacks infantry. However, outside the vehicle you are vulnerable to AP3 and blast weapons and this is the reason why a rhino is better. It offers mobility and protection to your multipurpose squad.

[jhrovii]

For reference:

 

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3356/av14q.png

 

P.S. Remember the Las/Plas option is actually two separate weapons.

 

*EDIT*- I forgot to include my "2 Psycannon" stats. Really it's not too hard. Just imagine what those points are paying for, you know. Essentially, twin-linking and an extra set of 4 shots on a rhino chassis. It's not really that big of an upgrade to go from 4 psycannon shots to 4TL "Psycannon" shots. I think what you pay for (and what needs to be assessed) is the value of an extra set of 4 shots.

[BrotherWasted]

Sure except that for ten more points you get a 3 twin linked strength 6 shots which are actually rather reasonable against light mech. You don't lose anything if you just hop out of your ride which most GK players to maxamize their storm bolter effectiveness. Anti tank should also come from psyfleman dreads and the gk exit their thransports to blast the units that were inside the transport that the dread or the razorback just destroyed. Many eldar lists function purely off strength 6 with re-rolls to hit, do not under estimate what that 10 points is actually giving you.

 

Regards,

Crynn

 

The main tank threat comes from vehicles with AV12-14. Predator tanks and land raiders, eldar tanks, imperial guard tanks.

Or anything near 6 las/plas razorbacks, 3 predators and some typhoons.

 

I don't consider the razorbacks useless, but inappropriate in grey knight lists.

Let's take a GK razorspam list, for example, a GM, 2 basic purifier squads, 6 basic strike squads, 8 razorbacks and 3 psyflemen dreadnoughts. 10 psycannons in total and 20 KPs.

 

When your infantry is embarked you have only 3 real anti-tank units to counter at least 6 enemy tanks with anti-tank weapons and a couple more with mixed weaponry. Imagine what will happen every time that you won't get the first turn. Will you have enough units to shoot back? Will you disembark your troops?

 

What will you shoot at with your storm bolters when you disembark? Infantry or tanks? Why did you took the psycannon? To shoot infantry or tanks? Since psycannons are far more cost effective against tanks than the razorbacks you should shoot tanks and with the razorbacks infantry. However, outside the vehicle you are vulnerable to AP3 and blast weapons and this is the reason why a rhino is better. It offers mobility and protection to your multipurpose squad.

 

Except, that list is HORRIBLE at taking on anything from AV13 or 14. That list cannot pop Land Raiders without disembarking. Drop two of those Strike Squads (you have a GM - why are you taking 6?); get yourself some stronger units like a Vindicare, some Interceptors or some Dreadknights. Change it up. Now you have less kill points to have exploited, and significantly greater anti-tank presence. There is no point trying to quote a cookie-cutter spam list that is not geared for this argument.

 

Now, this said, when my squads are embarked, I have all those Razorbacks who can now threaten side or rear armor of anything shy of a Land Raider. At best, I can destroy anything on rear armor 10, or immobilise something with AV12. At worst, I fluff my rolls and do nothign. They will also destroy those enemy Rhinos or Razors very efficiently. The Rifleman will take care of front armor 13 business. Psycannons/Hammers/Vindicare/Dreadknights will deal with AV14.

 

You take Psycannons because you DON'T have to plan for whether they will shoot at Infantry or Tanks. They destroy both things rather equally well.

 

A Razorback also provides mobility and protection to my multipurpose squad - identical in armor value to the Rhino actually. My squads just happen to be 5-man rather than 10.

 

A Grey Knight squad does not have mixed weaponry. Their weapons are useful against almost all targets.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The other benefit is that a Razorback can shoot target A, while allowing the now disembarked squad to shoot target B. The ability to destroy or shoot multiple targets (say, have the Razorback shoot the enemy transport and the Grey Knights shoot the now disembarked troops as an example) is very useful.

 

Additionally, although I cannot recall the exact thread here in our now busy busy forum, it was shown that Psybolts is pretty much Always a better option in terms of damage output than 1 additional body. This needs to be weighed against survivability and transport capacity of course, but the shooting of a 5 man squad with Psybolts does more damage than the shooting of a 6 man squad.

[yperihitikos]

Except, that list is HORRIBLE at taking on anything from AV13 or 14. That list cannot pop Land Raiders without disembarking. Drop two of those Strike Squads (you have a GM - why are you taking 6?); get yourself some stronger units like a Vindicare, some Interceptors or some Dreadknights. Change it up. Now you have less kill points to have exploited, and significantly greater anti-tank presence. There is no point trying to quote a cookie-cutter spam list that is not geared for this argument.

 

Now, this said, when my squads are embarked, I have all those Razorbacks who can now threaten side or rear armor of anything shy of a Land Raider. At best, I can destroy anything on rear armor 10, or immobilise something with AV12. At worst, I fluff my rolls and do nothign. They will also destroy those enemy Rhinos or Razors very efficiently. The Rifleman will take care of front armor 13 business. Psycannons/Hammers/Vindicare/Dreadknights will deal with AV14.

 

You take Psycannons because you DON'T have to plan for whether they will shoot at Infantry or Tanks. They destroy both things rather equally well.

 

A Razorback also provides mobility and protection to my multipurpose squad - identical in armor value to the Rhino actually. My squads just happen to be 5-man rather than 10.

 

A Grey Knight squad does not have mixed weaponry. Their weapons are useful against almost all targets.

 

Every GK heavy tank list is horrible in competitiveness. The list was a typical razorspam. Let's take the list that you think suits better to our discussion.

A GM, a vindicare, 2 basic purifier squads, 4 basic strike squads, 6 razorbacks and either 3 psyflemen dreadnoughts and 5-8 interceptors or 3 well equipped dreadknights. 18-17 KPs and 9-8 psycannons. You still have too many KPs and now less tanks to be taken out plus one model for those lone lascannons or missiles that would be overkill for AV11. You either increased long range weapons and reduced medium range ones and survivability or you reduced both long range and medium range weapons. Now, your vehicles will have to deal with more incoming fire.

In an empty table you may manage rear hits all the time. Of course, you can always be the one that gets the first turn. When you don't, half or two thirds of your vehicles will be damaged or unable to fire. In a competitive enviroment, by turn 3 you will be playing a foot list with near 15 survivors and 1-2 functional dreadnoughts.

 

 

Razorbacks offer mobility and isolation to their content. The embarked squad is isolated from the battlefield.

Rhinos offer mobility and protection The squad can still use its weapons as if it were on the battlefield but it can't be touched.

With GKs every shot and every body counts. You don't have the luxury to wait inside the vehicles or get out and be shot to pieces.

 

 

The other benefit is that a Razorback can shoot target A, while allowing the now disembarked squad to shoot target B. The ability to destroy or shoot multiple targets (say, have the Razorback shoot the enemy transport and the Grey Knights shoot the now disembarked troops as an example) is very useful.

 

Additionally, although I cannot recall the exact thread here in our now busy busy forum, it was shown that Psybolts is pretty much Always a better option in terms of damage output than 1 additional body. This needs to be weighed against survivability and transport capacity of course, but the shooting of a 5 man squad with Psybolts does more damage than the shooting of a 6 man squad.

 

They will kill 11% more marines while they cost the same. 20pts for 0,11 kills per turn is not a good trade.