How does a DoA army deal with draigowing

[Atlantic]

Mephiston is not a good choice if you are playing GK.

 

Psyk Out Grenades make him hit at initiative one and the GK force weapons will annihilate him. (especially with the banner)

 

I always take Meph, but I don't ever tailor my army for specific opponents.

 

If you use Meph, your best bet is to leave him in cover on an objective with another scoring unit. When the GK assault he will at least hit at the same time as the halberds. He'll kill some of them, but will still die.

 

 

I played 2 more games against GK last night. (1850 and 2500)

 

The most effective units in my army on a point for point basis were MM attack bikes and razor backs packing twin linked las cannons.

[Brother Landrain]

Vindicators work pretty well. As does massed bolter fire.

The most effective units in my army on a point for point basis were MM attack bikes and razor backs packing twin linked las cannons.

One advantage fighting a DraigoWing, is that they are less likely to have LR's and more likely to DS.

If they DS, that means comming in in phases.

If they are footslogging, means you have more time to get into position.

 

Pie, lots of Pie...

Attack Bikes with MM, run 150 pts for 3 shots.

Landspeeders with dual MM, run 240 pts for 6 shots

 

Both can turboboost...

Advantages for AB's they are T5 and 2W

Advantages for LS's they are AV10 and can DS

 

A lot depends on your playstyle

[Brother Biskit]

Vindicators work pretty well. As does massed bolter fire.

 

Vindicators are good but massed bolter fire is useless. Even for a 5 man squad of GK terminators you would need 360 shots to take them down (if my maths is right). Lascannons love GKs too.

[Commander Sasha]

All the above solutions are still based on operating in a vacuum; massed bolter fire WILL get through eventually, but how long is the Draigowing player going to sit back and let you shoot him? And whilst he's letting you do that, he's returning fire, and his guns are better!

 

Similarly, 3 Vindicators will drop a turn of pie plates, but by the time you have got them out of your army case, he knows he is going to combat squad, and all 3 squads can take down a Vindi, not forgetting the Psiflemen or NDKs.

 

Draigowing is next to impossible to deal with; as a Tyranid player, we have some theories in development on thetyranidhive regarding VERY clever multi-assaulting: one squad charges, locking the Halberds into combat, then another joins with careful placement, so that you can apply PW, fists and hammers to Draigo first, and your ICs don't have to fight him, whilst his halberds can't get to your ICs. ie, YOU dictate how he attacks you.

 

Still very situational though, and a good Draigowing player will still stomp you, especially if you have Fearless/No Retreat, as we 'Nids do!

[shinigami]

Draigowing is next to impossible to deal with;

[...]a good Draigowing player will still stomp you

 

A lot of pleasant chatting here, but ... cm'on. The truth is the one quoted above. Let's face it, unless the GK player's a real moron, there's nearly no way for a BA list to properly deal with draigo and his 10 companions. I mean... shooting them out with bolters, seriously!? How many bolters a standard BA list can field, btw? hmm... ZERO? Vindies are fine themselves, but I hardly see people fielding 3 of them at thee same time, and after all, a list should be made in order to cope (more or less) with all the possible matchups. Not to say Draigo and his friends shoot as well. And they do it better and harder than we BAs do.

All in all, I think the only remote hope of dealing with Draigo & co. is spamming fear of the darkness AND ram into them with all the fast vehicles we can (something a DoA list can't do, btw). Ah, this also means even more fancy MSU lists around. Fantastic.

That said, let's just face it: matt Ward has screwed up with the GK codex. Be it Draigo or the GK MSU of doom, that codex is simply out of scale. That's it.

[SamaNagol]

Jesus, I forgot about Psykout Grenades. Mephiston is out of the question.

 

Melta in an all Jumpers list. That's what you need to rely on.

[Dropsik]

You do understand that psykout granades works only if gk are charging? So when mephiston assaults with his 18 plus feet range he strikes first?

 

Cheers

[AbusePuppy]

That said, let's just face it: matt Ward has screwed up with the GK codex. Be it Draigo or the GK MSU of doom, that codex is simply out of scale. That's it.

 

I agree with you on the Tyranid front- having come to BA after playing 'Nids, it's nigh impossible to build a Tyranid list that can both defeat GK and be able to beat anything else.

 

However, BA, being a codex that wasn't crippled by their worst current rules writer, does not suffer this problem. They have plenty of solutions to Draigowing and even Jumpers, which finds itself fighting an uphill battle, can still win. It requires breaking a lot of the normal assumptions for the army and will be harder or easier depending on how you have build yourself (VV versions will have to struggle extra-hard; Dev versions will have an easier time of it), but it is a winnable fight.

 

The GK codex is not the problem- the problem is when GK are faced up against weak codices, because it absolutely shreds them. Tyranids and SoB are far and away the worst 5E books, and both of them find themselves crushed badly by GK. Likewise, many of the 4E books with limited flexibility (Daemons, Orks, CSM) are similarly unable to cope with GK; the "good" books- or at least books with a few good builds in them (SW, BA, SM, DE, IG, DA, BT, Tau) can all compete with GK on something like an even footing, depending on the particulars of the build.

 

I know it's fashionable to b*tch about GK now, just like it was with IG and SW for quite some time, but none of those books are unreasonably strong, they're just more additions to the 5E lineup.

[Drunken Angel]

Draigowing is next to impossible to deal with;

[...]a good Draigowing player will still stomp you

 

A lot of pleasant chatting here, but ... cm'on. The truth is the one quoted above. Let's face it, unless the GK player's a real moron, there's nearly no way for a BA list to properly deal with draigo and his 10 companions. I mean... shooting them out with bolters, seriously!? How many bolters a standard BA list can field, btw? hmm... ZERO? Vindies are fine themselves, but I hardly see people fielding 3 of them at thee same time, and after all, a list should be made in order to cope (more or less) with all the possible matchups. Not to say Draigo and his friends shoot as well. And they do it better and harder than we BAs do.

All in all, I think the only remote hope of dealing with Draigo & co. is spamming fear of the darkness AND ram into them with all the fast vehicles we can (something a DoA list can't do, btw). Ah, this also means even more fancy MSU lists around. Fantastic.

That said, let's just face it: matt Ward has screwed up with the GK codex. Be it Draigo or the GK MSU of doom, that codex is simply out of scale. That's it.

 

Its not out of scale in the bigger picture think beyond one codex

 

Yes GK Draigowing are tough but the overall meta game will shift and evolve to deal with the current Monster.

 

 

Since we have moved away from discussing just jump pack Blood Angels vs Draigo and discussed nids and so on I will advance one army/list from another codex that can bring balance. I ran and still have a 2000 plus ravenwing biker army.

Ravenwing bikers are an all troops choice biker army running up to 30 meltas all on outflank/scout. They can spam obscene amounts of melta and plasma with a 24 inch move are able to engage when they want where they want. They dont do combat so dont care about GK CC buffs. Their guns are as powerfull when massed in numbers with their speed they shoot first using apoths and FNP they are survivable. Remove the psyfleman and transports early and make Draigowing walk. Throw in Sammael and his speeder its nasty after the psyfleman are gone. They also have access to land speeders shooting Krak 48 inches. Draigo's boys will eat krak the whole game once their 48 in TL autos are silenced. Shrouding helps GK negate the shooting somewhat but it cant work forever and they must step away from cover at some time. I dont feel this is terribly off topic I just see a weakness in GK and its vulnerable to Ravenwing type lists. The appearance of Draigowing may see a few more previously less usefull list builds that will evolve now and settle Draigo in the next few months.

Yes I know interceptors can shunt 30 inches and Dreadknights can do the odd trick, Vindicares are an issue.

 

I run a Jump pack army and a GK army but if some one turned up with his Draigo wing being a local pest I would throw that Ravenwing army on the table and laugh. A couple of attack bikes on a suicide mission with meltabombs and meltaguns or multimelta on outflank will take out both psyfleman reliably. My points lost are around 110 assuming both bikes get killed for 2 dead psyfleman at up to 300 points. No more long range shooting the bikes/speeders left on the board will shoot those Paladins to bits or leave them stuck in cover. Emperor forbid the raven wing biker player takes a plasma/las ven dread as a back up plan.

 

My point is within our BA codex there may not be an obvious viable answer other than laspam to fight GK Draigo lists but other codexes can now respond to a more commonly encountered threateningly dominant CC strong shooting footslogging list like GK.

 

 

Sorry if this is considered off topic but there you go.

[Brother Landrain]

I ran into Draigowing at 'Ard Boyz yesterday in round 3.

 

While I am not running DOA, and was running Razorspam, what happened can easilly be done with DOA.

 

Fear of the Darkness...

 

GK are not fearless. It can be exploited by BA.

Paladins are only Ld 9.. they fail on a 8.. 41% of the time

HQ's are Ld 10... fail on a 9... 27%

 

Using a Psychic power on a GK unit is reduced by Aegis to being made on a ld check of 9... so 41% of the time it will go off.

Even though Draigo is Fearless, When you join a non-Fearless unit... no longer fearless :yes:

 

Now I had 4 Librarians, 2 Dreads, 2 HQ..

 

And while I was constantly shooting and manuevering to try to stay out of melee with the GK. I was spamming every chance Fear of the darkness. All it takes is one failure. And you can run the GK away.The keyy is putting your units spread around the GK. So that when they break, and eventually they will, they will start falling back, and end up within 6" of your units. Especially if they run huge 10 man squads this should be relatively easy. This is where the huge size and resilliency of the Paladins especially work against them.

 

Another point is that, once they start falling back, if you shoot them again, they automatically fall back again!

 

Keep enough Troops dispersed and cast fear enough times, and they will go home and take their ball with them.

 

BTW, in 'Ard Boyz, I was able to get a Massacre in round 3 vs GK-Draigowing. Doing exactly this tactic.

 

I may take 5 Librarian's next round :P

[SamaNagol]

Fear & Shiled libbys are SOO good for tournament play

[HERO]

Well, I have a game coming up with my BA vs. Draigowing and my list isn't going to be tailored or anything.

 

Not entirely sure what I'm gonna run, but I'll try a list with mostly mans + a few Preds to support. I'll update this post with a list tonight.

[HERO]

Had my game vs. Draigo:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/09/br-ba-vs-gk-sw-vs-ba.html

 

Was fun

[Brother Landrain]

Had my game vs. Draigo:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/09/br-ba-vs-gk-sw-vs-ba.html

 

Was fun

 

Looking at your Blog, it seems that none of the Paladins had Halberds?

As you were able to wipe out a paladin unit I4 vs FC?

Any serious GK list will have a lot of I6 Halberds, I think that difference skews the result a bit.

[HERO]

Had my game vs. Draigo:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/09/br-ba-vs-gk-sw-vs-ba.html

 

Was fun

 

Looking at your Blog, it seems that none of the Paladins had Halberds?

As you were able to wipe out a paladin unit I4 vs FC?

Any serious GK list will have a lot of I6 Halberds, I think that difference skews the result a bit.

 

.....

Read again. :|

I said Draigo had I4.

 

The point:

 

Once the meltagun barrels cool, he has 5 Paladins left and his Libby down from a full squad. The ones remain have Halberds. I assault with everything I have and several Blood Angels die, but not before 4 Fists, Dante, the Chaplain and Sanguinary Guard clean up the rest of his army.

 

PRO TIP - Victory in numbers

BA jumpers vs. Paladins might seem like suicide at first, but you really need to determine which fights you can win and which fights to avoid. Sending in units of BA into I6 Halberds could mean certain death, but all this depend on how many Paladins they have, how many wounds you can inflict beforehand, and how many units you have at your disposal. Use your mobility and the terrain to negotiate victory on your terms. Do not attack when you don't feel like you can win, and always use your superior maneuverability and numbers to overwhelm his forces. Paladins are nigh immune to small arms fire, so it's up to the weight of your meltaguns and power fists to work his ranks. To do this, you need bodies. Many Blood Angels will die in the process, but their sacrifices will not be in vain.

 

Reading is hard sometimes.

[Drunken Angel]

Hero just a question please, Dantes death mask forces a leadership test which must be passed or the enemies WS is reduced to 1 for the duration of the assault phase. This is in addition to the deathmask IC curse at deployment.

Dante is already committed and going to be in combat but did you try it ?

Whose leadership is it taken on? I guess if Draigo is with the paladins the leadership is taken on majority leadership? Draigo= 10 or the Paladin = 9 so a 10, 11 or 12 is a fail on the paladin and WS 1 for the enemy Thats a 25% chance of tripping up the GK at no cost and worth it I guess.

[SamaNagol]

Yup, thats on the turn you charge

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well played but I feel the GK player made some big mistakes.

 

G :D

[HERO]

Hero just a question please, Dantes death mask forces a leadership test which must be passed or the enemies WS is reduced to 1 for the duration of the assault phase. This is in addition to the deathmask IC curse at deployment.

Dante is already committed and going to be in combat but did you try it ?

Whose leadership is it taken on? I guess if Draigo is with the paladins the leadership is taken on majority leadership? Draigo= 10 or the Paladin = 9 so a 10, 11 or 12 is a fail on the paladin and WS 1 for the enemy Thats a 25% chance of tripping up the GK at no cost and worth it I guess.

 

Yeah, he passed on a 10. If he would of failed.... such bad times for him..

[HERO]

Well played but I feel the GK player made some big mistakes.

 

G :huh:

 

I also think the allocation games on his Paladin could of been better.

 

I think the biggest issue was that he got outplayed in terms of picking which fights to fight. All those BA coming down on him is going to give anyone problems.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You did it right - an aggressive approach with a good setup and well timed assaults. Dante's curse on Draigo is pretty darn smart - I should have thought of that ! ;)

 

If I remember the batrep correctly I was thinking why did the GK player not attach his Librarian to the Paladins with Draigo. Maybe there was a good reason to do so but it seemed to lead to disaster for them as the game lead on. He had a good list from what I can remember so I can't fault him there plus your army was not tailored specifically to beat Draigowing.

 

About FoD - that can be a big problem for the Paladins and they need to keep a dreadnaught close by for the -4 Ld penalty due to its reinforced aegis. The IG battle psyker squad is more of a problem as Weaken Resolve can easily outrange the Librarian's psychic hood (somewhat OT but worth mentioning I think).

 

G ;)

[Morticon]

Whose leadership is it taken on? I guess if Draigo is with the paladins the leadership is taken on majority leadership? Draigo= 10 or the Paladin = 9 so a 10, 11 or 12 is a fail on the paladin and WS 1 for the enemy Thats a 25% chance of tripping up the GK at no cost and worth it I guess.

 

Ld works on highest in the squad, not majority! :)

[JamesI]

I liked the Draigo bat rep. I haven't faced a Draigowing style list yet.

 

I haven't read the Wolves one yet, looking forward to that.