Dosjetka Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Hello all! OK, the title may be a bit confusing, but as I was working on my IA here on the Liber, I wanted my Chapter to venerate the Emperor as all good Imperial citizens do. This would somewhat help (in my point of view anyway) their relations with other Imperial factions, though could create a rift between my Chapter and their brother Chapter. My question is, how would Astartes turn from being atheists to religious? As always, any help would be great and greatly appreciated -_- Cheers, Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Some chapters do revere the Emperor as a deity rather than as a great mortal, like the Fire Angels. Possible reason- maybe they were involved in something "miraculous" and started developing that reverence? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2873860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiny sam Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 having a particularly pious world from where they recruits having witness miracles having been on the watch of the inquisition to much and any other reason an ordinary human may begin to believe in god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2874016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 and any other reason an ordinary human may begin to believe in god. Ah, but Astartes are not human :) They have their hypno-indoctrination and Chaplains, so it's not that easy. Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2874152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 One would think that a lesson was learned with the Word Bearers. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2874166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The Fire Angels venerate Emperor as a God, and if I recall correctly their article suggests that it's because they are of the later Founding (25th). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2874176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 The Fire Angels venerate Emperor as a God, and if I recall correctly their article suggests that it's because they are of the later Founding (25th). So would a later Foundation justify them being religious, as opposed to their Founding fathers? That would seem a bit strange. The Chapter usually inherits the belief system of its parent Chapter and so only some big event would change that (like going from Codex to non-Codex/Codex deviation). Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2874204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The Fire Angels venerate Emperor as a God, and if I recall correctly their article suggests that it's because they are of the later Founding (25th). So would a later Foundation justify them being religious, as opposed to their Founding fathers? That would seem a bit strange. The Chapter usually inherits the belief system of its parent Chapter and so only some big event would change that (like going from Codex to non-Codex/Codex deviation). Ludovic Lol, well no one said it has to make sense*. I just provided a precedent in the lore. B) If you want know what the article exactly says, then: Conservative in their viewpoint, they [Fire Angels] embrace the Imperial Creed as unassailable truth and see themselves as holy fighters in the God Emperor's service whose foremost duty is to defend the Imperium... So I was wrong :tu:, but it should be noted that the Fire Angels weren't trained by single Chapter, but "honoured warriors drawn from the several Ultramarines successor Chapters". * The Badab War articles are sometimes miss. For example, the Raptors gene-seed fluff is really brain-fart. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2874220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The amount of influence the parent (or training) Chapter had will be significant. If a single Chapter trained the fledgling Chapter and it wholly indoctrinated the new Space Marines in their warrior cult (in which the Emperor is not viewed as a god), the new Chapter is more likely to follow the older Adeptus Astartes views. If the new Chapter isn't fully indoctrinated, on the other hand, it may be more susceptible to external influences. The other major influence will be the culture(s) from which the Chapter recruits. The religious views of the recruiting stock tend to creep into a Chapter over time (re: Mortifactors). Many Chapters tend to recruit from more primitive cultures where the worship of the Emperor is more by analogy than a direct application of the Imperial Cult. In these, the Emperor may be a sun god or warrior from the stars of whatever. If a Chapter recruits heavily from a world that follows the Imperial Cult, however, the traces of Emperor worship may eventually alter the Chapter's warrior cult to the point where it is just another version of the Imperial Cult. Single miraculous instances may have an influence, but only if they are ascribed to the Emperor and/or the Imperial Cult rather than the warrior cult of the Chapter. For example, the Sanguinor is comparable with a saint-like character, but he is perceived in terms of the Sanguinary Cult (and the history of the Chapter has much to do with this). The long term influence of the Ministorum might also have an influence, though I would think that the Chapter would have to be receptive in the first place (i.e., not deeply indoctrinated in an "older" Adeptus Astartes warrior cult). If a Chapter works closely with elements of the Ecclesiarchy and is open to "conversion," it might shift from its earlier warrior cult to the Imperial Cult (or even transform its warrior cult into a version of the Imperial Cult). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2874277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I think there are a few DIY Chapters in the Librarium that do accept the big E as a God, maybe they're worth a look through for ideas? There are plenty of ways though, for my Emperor's Blade (seems like a long time ago now...) it was a combination of when and why they were formed - during M.33 at the height of the Ecclesiarchy's power, to fight in a holy crusade against the Word Bearers - compounded by the early loss of the young Chapter's Master of Sanctity which allowed an opportunity for the beliefs of the Ecclesiarchy priests to be taught to the Marines, gradually pushing out the traditional Astartes belief system. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2874422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 *Wrenches topic out of the depths of Liber* I never realised there were any replies on this thread :sweat: So, firstly, thanks to all of you who replied, really great help! Nightrawen: True, many things don't make sense :) Brother Tyler: Thank you very much for your highly detailed post! It's really got me thinking and ideas are starting to form ;) Lysimachus: Do you by any chance have a list of IA's which include the worship of the Emperor as a god? If anyone has anything else to say on the subject, then please do :) Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2944737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 One would think that a lesson was learned with the Word Bearers. :P That's a good point; Would 40k-era inquisitors/ecclesiarchs still know about the Word Bearer's pre-heresy Emperor-worship? If they did, would they be wary of a Chapter who believed in the Emperor's divinity? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 That's a good point; Would 40k-era inquisitors/ecclesiarchs still know about the Word Bearer's pre-heresy Emperor-worship? If they did, would they be wary of a Chapter who believed in the Emperor's divinity? Maybe some Inquisitors, but I don't think that kind of information is "mainstream". And the Astartes are powerful allies, so even though there may be a risk, having Space Marines close at hand is a great advantage, especially if you believe in the same things :rolleyes: Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furniture Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Most Imperial citizens, including your typical Ecliesiarchal priests know nothing about the histories of the traitor legions, who they were, what they were like, or why they fell. Most probably don't even know they exist in the first place, unless you are near the Eye or a place where they are known to operate. That kind of information lays the seeds of heresy, and blessed is the mind too small for doubt. Edit: So what I mean is that no, most people know nothing about the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 Most Imperial citizens, including your typical Ecliesiarchal priests know nothing about the histories of the traitor legions, who they were, what they were like, or why they fell. Most probably don't even know they exist in the first place, unless you are near the Eye or a place where they are known to operate. That kind of information lays the seeds of heresy, and blessed is the mind too small for doubt. Edit: So what I mean is that no, most people know nothing about the Word Bearers. I completely agree, which basically means that apart from a few Inquisitors who are aware of such things, no-one would oppose the creation or alteration of a Chapters beliefs to the veneration of the Emperor as a god. Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malthe Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Not as much a reply, as a related question: Where is it canonically established that worshipping the God-Emperor is against the norm in the 999.M41? Sure it was the case at the time of the Great Crusade, but 10.000 years passed and all that... Does the assumption cling to that article about 'seeing him as a distant liege' (paraphrasing)? Because I think you could make a case for that being more about how the Astartes see themselves (god-sons), rather than it decrying his divinity. After all; every other institution in the Imperium (and most people) see it this way. It's gotta be tough to keep saying no, when people tell you that your (grand)father is a god. Well, just musing. Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 Where is it canonically established that worshipping the God-Emperor is against the norm in the 999.M41? Do you mean among the Astartes Chapters or in general? If it's in general, the worship of the Emperor as a god is widespread, but there are many interpretations and different cults across the galaxy, each having the own particularities. If it's for Astartes Chapters, I can't point you to a direct source, but from what I've gathered, it's that way as the belief system of the Founding Legions has been passed down through the generations and while there has been some deviations, many Chapters retain certain links to the warrior cults of the ancient Legions from which they descend (who, as you said, did not worship the Emperor as a god). I hope that replies at least in part to your question <_< Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Where is it canonically established that worshipping the God-Emperor is against the norm in the 999.M41? If it's for Astartes Chapters, I can't point you to a direct source... Ask and thou shall receive: *The Cults of the Space Marines were formed long before the Ecclesiarchy became a powerful force within the Imperium, and they hold to their beliefs stubbornly, disdaining the fanatical ravings of the Ministorum. Their ideology features fundamental theological differences from the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. The main point of contention between the Space Marines and the Ecclesiarchy occurs in how they perceive the Emperor. To the Ecclesiarchy, the Emperor is a god, the most divine being, the Saviour of Mankind and its eternal guardian. The Space Marines revere the Emperor as a brilliant, inspired man, but a man nonetheless. This forms a major schism between the two organisations. Some amongst the Ecclesiarchy see the Space Marines as dangerous, heretical deviants, and certainly Wars of Faith have been fought for far less. However, the Space Marines are unfailingly loyal to the Emperor, even if they do not recognise his divinity. At the same time, the Space Marines are to be revered for they share aspects of their genetic structure with the Emperor himself. An uneasy truce has developed between the Adeptus Astartes and the Ministorum, though occasional disputes shatter this wary peace.* ~ Index Astartes, Space Marine Chaplains Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 Ah, thank you for that Nightrawen <_< So there you have it Malthe, a complete and official answer :) Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malthe Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Well there you go :D Thanks for that, mate, never seen that article before. In that case I would presume that the above is true especially for the early chapter and has thus been inherited down through the millenia. Meaning that there might be room for exception among the younger chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2945957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 One would think that a lesson was learned with the Word Bearers. :) I think the lesson learned was to say "Yep I'm a god!" or "Yes the Emperor is a god! Please keep fighting on our side." and not tell them to stop what they are doing and man-up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2946057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leofric Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 As well as the Fire Angels you also have (had?) the Fire Hawks who were also believers in the Imperial cult from as far back as their founding (M36-21st cursed founding) some 3000+ years before the Fire Angels most recent incarnation (they were also given the Raptorus-Rex-Super-Battleship-Fortress by Sebastian Thor, the Ecclesiarch who succeeded mad Vandire, so they may have had some reason to be grateful and support the church :cuss ) It is also noted in the Fire angels entry in IA9 that they get on better with the Adeptus Sororitas and Ministorum than with some their brother chapters, but that seems to be standard for the Imperium - If you have a 'special relationship' with one of the Imperial Factions (church, mechanicus, Inquisition etc) you tend to have a worse than average relationship with some/all the others... I would suspect that there are quite a few of the '1000 marine chapters' that follow the 'official' Imperial Cult, not a large number but more than the two we know about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2946300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G3rman Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 One would think that a lesson was learned with the Word Bearers. ;) I was just about to say that. There was a reason why the Emperor condemned them and their actions as it went against what he wanted the Imperium's ideals to be. Another reason for over the top worship: Your chapter has traitor (WB) geneseed :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2946336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgard Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Here is another way to look at it - what if the other power players within the Imperium might see a Chapter of Space Marines following the Imperial Cult as a desirable outcome? In other words, who is to say that perhaps at one point, some High Lords of Terra wondered during a Founding what would happen if they attempt to encourage the religiosity and Emperor-worship in at least some Chapters? There could be many reasons for it - perhaps the High Lords think such Chapter might be a bit easier to control; maybe some of the High Lords are themselves quite religious and would like to spread their ideas. Maybe, after seeing most Space Marines stand aside during Vandire's Reign of Blood, the new High Lords would like to have a few Chapters that WOULD be willing to involve themselves in a religious schism on the side of the "legitimate" establishment? As a result, if such Chapter is created, they could be deliberately indoctrinated from the start to believe in the Emperor's divinity; maybe their training cadre is carefully selected amongst few Marines who already espouse such beliefs, and their beliefs are reinforced by Ecclesiastic sermons and involvement. Consequently, a deliberately created religious Chapter is born! Another possibility, too. Vandire's Reign of Blood had a number of Astartes Chapters join Sebastian Thor, perhaps out of wholly secular reasons, but... What if a Chapter that joined Thor's Confederacy of Light had witnessed what they can only explain as divine intervention helping Thor's forces? What if they have a Chapter-wide spiritual awakening as a result of that experience? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2948912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 Some very good sources of inspiration you've got for me there Midgard, thank you :confused: I'm sure all of the situations you pointed out are plausible and I hope you don't mind me using them for myself! Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238296-how-to-become-an-altar-boy/#findComment-2949141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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