Competitive Blood Angels

[BigBaals]

I think it's been hit on here and there - but I want to know what you're doing to be competitive with your BA. I mean you throw down with the top guys in your area and you win.

 

For instance, in my area there are some very different levels of play. I consider myself better-than-average, but I'd be hard pressed to come in middle of the pack if our top tier players were the only ones that showed up to tournaments. One of our top players had Draigowing figured out before I'd seen a single Net-list of similar type, and I'd like to think I surf a bit every day in the 40k world to keep abreast of the latest and greatest opponents.

 

What type of lists are you running that you are having the most success with for all-comers? What's beating DE? What's beating Draigo? How are you handling Space Wolf Razorspam? Are these the same armies that are able to handle the Green Tide?

 

I believe the most common concepts behind Blood Angel lists are:

Pure Mech/Razorspam

Hybrid Mech/DoA

Pure DoA/Biker Rodeo

 

If you're not sure what each of these concepts are, they are all over these forums. If I were to put them in order of effectiveness, I'd place them in the same order. I think it's unfortunate, not only in my Meta, but in the worldwide Meta that BA Razorspam is the best build available. Is our best list build really:

 

Mephiston or Librarian

Razor LC/TLPG x4 (or 5)

Preadators

Fill in the rest with whatevers left over

 

 

I think in our most recent Drago-post we've basically established that DoA are not going to beat a competent GK player. Period. I read "shoot them" and "they will stretch there lines thin" but I don't think they are playing competent GK players by any means. DoA does well against the likes of Vanilla Marines and I.G., and I've personally had some minor success against DE, but I think that is a tough matchup none the less.

 

 

So again, I pose the question: When you're facing that top group of players wielding the top armies - what list are you bringing and how are you fairing?

[Morticon]

Take a look here-> Nationals Batreps for the most recent tournament (last weekend).

 

And then i've put a whole lot of batreps up in the past. Sorry for those of you that are bored with these ><;

 

SA Regionals Heat1 - 1st Place.

 

SA Regionals Heat2 - 2nd Place (last year 4th)

 

Icon 2011 - 3rd Place (Last year 1st)

 

Dragonfire - Doubles- (BA/BA) - 1st (last year 1st)

 

Veterans 2500 - 1st (last year 2nd)

 

Adepticon and USA tour - 47th/256 :) list here

[Morticon]

As a quick aside on my general tournament philosophy:

 

 

I believe that 40k (when it comes to lists vs lists) is a gigantic Rock/Paper/Scissors game for the most part.

 

When we design a list we strive to create a Rock list that makes as many opponents play like Scissor lists and as few as possible Paper lists.

 

However, there will be a time that you come up against a list that (all things being equal) you just cannot beat. This is, I believe, par for the course.

There is no one magic list that is unbeatable.

 

Often, what happens in tournament is certain "uber builds" or "gimmick lists" will come up against their Paper list, and get taken out.

 

When I design a list, I build a list that is balanced in all senses of the word. A list that gives me the best chance of fighting almost every list in the local meta, or at least a fighting chance in the game.

 

 

This was the case over the weekend. There was, however, one list that I was dreading coming up against, and that was the Draigo Wing, pally list. Luckily, I didnt have to face it. But, that aside, I was confident that my list and my ability would have a fair chance at taking any army that was thrown at me.

 

 

 

I find the Razorspam list is decent to a degree, and I will try it out with more playtesting soon. But the disadvantages I see with most of the builds online, are fundamental enough to steer me away from those specific builds.

[Brother Landrain]

I am at heart an Unforgiven...

That being said, even with the recent FAQ, we are just not competeive at this time.

 

For 'ArdBoyz Prelimininaries I ran a SW RazorSpam/LongFangs Army.

 

For 'ArdBoyz Semis. I will be running a BA Razorspam list, posted here.

 

Which is kind of sad for both armies, as both armies are supposed to excell at close combat.

In the Prelims I think in 3 games I may have had 3-4 rounds of close combat. (I am hoping the Semis to be similar.)

 

The essence of the problem is to me the game system.

While mech was boosted a lot with 5th edition, the overall system does favor close combat, the problem is delivery.

 

Lets look at Space Wolves for a second.

They have probably hands down the best basic marines in the game, with Grey Hunters.

With their wargear, pricing, and options.

They are equally effective charging as taking a charge and have good firepower.

But they are slow, and the way to get there is mech. With the price of a Razor so close to a Rhino, its almost a no brainer to take a RZ with a Heavy Weapon.

Then to top it off, SW have the hands down best Long Range Heavy Weapon support units in Long Fangs. These are also just about a must have in any list. The ability to fire 7 ML's at two different targets per squad is huge. Almost double the firepower of a standard SM Dev squad.

 

 

 

Now lets look at Blood Angels

With DOA and SP's we should be a rocking go-get-em army...

Except the system fails us.

DOA and reserves brings the army in piecemeal.

And then after the DS we cannot Charge in to attack.

Both of these put a serious cramp on the DOA army style lists.

A few bad reserve rolls and you get shot to pieces one unit at atime...

To make matters worse, the Codex made Razorspam even cheaper for BA.

Being able to take a min assault squad with a melta, in a Razor is just too efficient, especially with Fast Rhino-Chassis.

 

While the system seems to favor Close Combat, it is twice as deadly, you can be "safe" when locked in combat etc...

And while MECH has been boosted, with new damage charts etc.

 

Because of some other factors, Close Combat is hard to engage in rapidly enough for a marine army.

To that extent, Marine Mech Lists are very popular, because they work in the current gamesystem.

 

A few changes that would help DOA would be:

1) to remove the IC Heroic Intervention restriction.

2) Have a version of DPA/DWA for Jump Pack troops. i.e. (1/2 arrive first turn, rest roll as normal)

3) Give Assault squads a one shot version of smoke Launchers, to use after a DS. (4+ cover on landing)

 

 

My last suggestion would:

1) Up the price on Razors, lower rhino's

2) Add an Open-Topped Fast Marine Transport Vehicle, this would help SW and mech BA.

 

I think the current system plays to Razorspam lists strength and hurts other forms for BA.

[AbusePuppy]

BA, like most of the 5E books, have plenty of good, competitive builds available. Most all of them focus on using the army's core strengths- mobility, resilience, and aggressiveness- in several different ways, and take advantage of our unique features (Librarian powers, Sanguinary Priests, Assault Squads as troops) as well. If you try to just build a "more betterer" Space Marine army with Blood Angels, you will fail; BA are a unique entity, and should be treated as such.

 

(DoA is entirely capable of beating Draigowing, although I won't say it's an easy fight; it's only the cripplingly-poor tactics espoused in most of that thread that prevent players from beating it.)

 

Aside from the builds you mention, there is also:

 

Heavy Flamer Razorspam (using HF Razors and Melta/Infernus ASM to force an aggressive rush)

Land Raider hammer (a rock list using two LRs filled with TH/SS, not unlike the SM version)

several variations on the Stormraven theme

Termwing (relying heavily on the resilience of our army by fielding ~20 2+/FNP bodies)

various more unique foot/mech hybrids

Dantewing (admittedly struggles quite a bit against GK, so probably not as competitive anymore)

Astorathwing (no seriously you can actually use this guy to build a decent army)

various Mephiston-based lists (seriously, stop just throwing this a**hole into a list and calling it a day, the game doesn't work like that)

 

Pure Mech/Razorspam

Hybrid Mech/DoA

Pure DoA/Biker Rodeo

I'm... not sure I follow your nomenclature here. "Razorspam" is one of the shooty LasPlas based lists, obviously. But "hybrid mech/DoA" and "pure DoA/biker rodeo" don't really make any sense unless I'm totally misunderstanding you, because neither of those pairs are things that go together.

 

I'm really not sure why DE would be considered a tough matchup- GK, yes, I can see that, especially for some builds, because GK are an elite army designed to trump other elite armies; but DE? We can shrug off Poison from here 'til Sunday without really losing any models and their Lance shots are hard-pressed to do everything at once by themselves. We can match them in speed and beat them in durability and most other metrics, so what, exactly, is the struggle here? It's not a pushover match, but I really can't see why it would be problematic.

[Brother Landrain]

(DoA is entirely capable of beating Draigowing, although I won't say it's an easy fight; it's only the cripplingly-poor tactics espoused in most of that thread that prevent players from beating it.)

 

And the Indians can win the World Series...

 

I would love to know these amazing magical tactics that you fail to mention...

 

Just a quick Straight up looking at the two armies..

 

using strickly average dice rolls...

 

10 RAS w/2xMG, sgt w/IP/PW + SP w/JP/IP/PW (305 pts)

5 GKP w/4xHalb, 2xPC, Banner (340 pts)

 

DOA Shooting is mostly all bolt pistols with a few Meltaguns thrown in.. (btw it takes ~ 3 MG shots to kill 1.11 Paladins)

You could use Plasma Guns, and plasma pistols.. (btw it takes ~ 6 Plasma shots to cause 2.22 Paladins wounds)

 

If a DOA RAS charges...

Well first the Halberds strike first at init 6... Those kill 3 RAS (killing the 2 MG's)

Now the RAS strike at init 5.

7 RAS w 3 attacks ea @ str 5... cause .... 1.17 wounds... less if you keep MG's alive...

Sgt wIP/PW and SP each swing 6 times causing 1.33 Wounds...

Lastly the Banner holder swings 3 times, killing another RAS.

 

So with 11 men to 5 advantage...the Charge, with FC, with FNP, with 6 PW attacks, with 4 melta shots, with 28 normal attacks...

The RAS does ~ 2.44 wounds to the Paladins, in return 4 of 11 of our BA are dead.

We lose combat by 4, if we are lucky we stay, otherwise we run away, they can't SA us.. but oh look.. 8 SB shots and 8 rending str 7 shots...

 

Did i miss something????

[Volcatus]

I think it's been hit on here and there - but I want to know what you're doing to be competitive with your BA. I mean you throw down with the top guys in your area and you win.

*snip*

 

I'm a toolbox list builder. In other words, I like a lot of different tools in the box that I can use for different situations. To that end I prefer the blood/sanguine hammer approach. My current 2500 looks like this:

 

Dante

Libby w/JP

HG w 4 MG

3 X Sang Priests 2 w/JP

2 X Sang Guard

2 X RAS

2 X MMAB

VV

3 X ML Devs

 

15 melta weapons, 12 missile launchers. Solid CC where I need it. Deployment and disruption options. Plenty of bodies on the field with ample of FNP/FC to go around.

 

I feel I am one of the better players in my area, although certainly not the best. And before AbusePuppy can say it, yes I'm just a fish in my particular pond. I know nothing of the ocean (read:I haven't gone to any of the big tourneys). I am not a unique and special flower. Just kidding, AP.

 

That all being said, the majority of my victories are "minor" to "major" ones. I find it challenging to get any kind of a "massacre" with this list. Since so many of my opponents mech lists are efficient at eliminating infantry, I take a beating before I can get enough melta in range. That being said, my missile Devs are the unsung heroes of every game I play, either by taking an inordinate amount of fire, or by laying down enough firepower to shoot the horses out from under my opponents infantry.

[BigBaals]

Pure Mech/Razorspam

Hybrid Mech/DoA

Pure DoA/Biker Rodeo

I'm... not sure I follow your nomenclature here. "Razorspam" is one of the shooty LasPlas based lists, obviously. But "hybrid mech/DoA" and "pure DoA/biker rodeo" don't really make any sense unless I'm totally misunderstanding you, because neither of those pairs are things that go together.

 

 

Those are the 3 broad categories that I see discussed throughout the interwebs. All of the lists that you listed are variations of a broader category (which is much appreciated of course).

 

Hybrid Mech/DoA is any mix of Jump Troops and Heavy Mech. Often something akin to Rhino/Razor TAC/RAS + SG/JP RAS/VV/JP HG and fill in from there.

Pure DoA is pretty self explanatory - the Blood Rodeo is a mix of DoA and a string of bikers for a turn one turbo boost (3+ cover) which confers a 4+cover to everything behind it. Think DoA without the D.

 

To make it clear I don't have a problem versus the average DE player. We can talk on the internet about which army should always win until the cows come home but that's just not the way it is. Again, I'm really focusing on your top tier Dark Eldar player vs. Blood Angels. No, I have almost no problems defeating the average DE player - but one of our top 3 players in the area is DE and it's an auto-loss when I play my Daemons and a very hard fought battle when I use my BA (Hybrid, Pure Mech, or Pure DoA don't think I've beat him yet). I think our main struggle versus DE is that they can field quite a bit more than us at the same points level. They have excellent high power shooting, high mobility, and the ability to hide that last transport for an end game objective grab (yes, we do that too, they just have more on the table to do it with). There CC prowess isn't anything to scoff at either.

 

 

I think all of this DoA talk against Draigo-wing and how we can just plop down and shoot with Melta-guns is really reaching for it. Warpquake is an auto-mishap within 12". Depending on the mission, that GK player is going to Combat Squad his Warp-Quake fellows and cover a very large portion of the table. If you think you're going to drop in with your Melta-HG and 2 to 3 squads of Melta RAS, try it and let me know hot it goes. On top of that, if your local Draigo-Pally player isn't pulling wound-allocation shennanigans with Master Crafted Weapons, Halbreds, Swords, etc. then he's probably doing it wrong.

 

On to Space Wolves - bottom line is: tough match up. I may be alone in this, but I feel like they out-shoot us and out-CC us on every level. What are you doing against your top tier Space Puppy players? We have the mobility, so I've had success shoving my DC and Furioso down there throats. Is Raven/Dread spam the key to the Pups and GK? I can imagine that most GK players wouldn't want to be in combat with a front armor 13 Dread with Blood Talons. Is anyone Competitively running Dual/Triple Ravens with 2-3 Furioso's?

 

I also read somewhere in there that Close Combat is really the way of 5th edition. I think you were right for a while... but something's changed. I think the Shooting Phase is the true game winner now, in most cases. Combined with less catosrophic destroyed transport results, I think this is why we still see a general lean towards Mech. A large fire base and a sprinkle of hammer-hard CC unit (Mephiston or TH/SS Termies) is what I'm seeing more and more.

[Volcatus]

... I think the Shooting Phase is the true game winner now, in most cases. ...

 

Agreed. I read somewhere recently (on 3++, I think) that the combination of 5th Ed. and tournament time limits are responsible for the success of shooting lists. From my perspective I can certainly see this. Shooting can be utilized every turn. CC can't. And even the best CC units are only getting into combat 2 or 3 times a game (multi-charges notwithstanding).

 

<insert favorite heavy weapon shooting choice here> firing turn after turn is what makes lists "robust" and "all-comers".

[Black Memories]

Yeah you're missing something very important--overwhelming force. Blood Angels have access to it, especially against draigowing.

 

Basically in a vacuum with reasonably average rolls you're right, that's a bad matchup. That's why you don't enter that matchup. Draigowing is slow and can never pick it's fight with a DoA list or mech list, so don't let it.

 

On another note while razorspam is effective in some environments, don't forget that hybrid lists are extremely potent setups, especially in a sub-2000 point tournament. The versatility of not having to rely on transports is absolutely critical, and you're also likely to make it further into the games (Never really an issue for me, but I heard complaints about it from some players).

 

While I agree the regional rounds for 'ard boyz do cater to non-assault armies (frankly some of the worst mission scenarios I've ever seen at any tournament), that doesn't mean that razorspam is really any better or worse than DoA or hyrbid in a RTT or GT style tournament setting. I ran a hybrid to the prelims for ard boyz and won the tournament. I've also won several other tournaments running hybrid lists (some that just flat shouldn't do well at all).

 

My personal idea behind building any list, especially a competitive one, is to dominate two phases of the game. I pick which phase I absolute want to win, design the army to meet that specification, then invest the rest of the points into the weaker phase. For example if I build a list to dominate assault and movement i'll probably invest 1500-1700 of my points out of 2000 into assault and mechanized support stuff and leave about 500-300 points as dedicated shooty stuff to cover some weaknesses. Keep in mind a lot of stuff in your army will double in another role (LRC could be assault/movement/shooty at the same time) so if you break it down this way you may have well over 2000 points of "designated ability" in your 2000 point list as some stuff will inevitably multi-role, but it helps you get an idea of how your army is structured and what you'll be good at doing so you can take advantage.

[Deschenus Maximus]

"When you're facing that top group of players wielding the top armies - what list are you bringing and how are you fairing? "

 

Mech. All day, every day.

 

DoA/Rodeo and variants can be good armies when setup properly, but they have a couple of bad matchups that can be crippling in a tournament. Razors and preds might be "boring", but they get the job done, regardless of wether you're playing Orks or Eldar.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Draigowing does not necessarily have to be a slow static army - I'm thinking because this army is perceived as all terms it's mostly about shooting. Draigowing can certainly lay down prodigious amounts of firepower but the army can also be designed as primarily geared towards melee - charge first then shoot versus the opposite approach. I'm not going to say that an army built around melee is better than an army that is inherently shooty is superior but it does exist and is not bad at all. A static list can deep strike and outflank for the disruption factor plus there are those armies (melee first) out there that use Stormravens... A 3++ cover save is pretty good. I would love to read some solid tactics how DoA can beat down Draigowing - seriously I'm all ears. :(

 

Anyways I think DoA is the most competitive build currently for BA - it's just very unfortunate that GK have all the tools required to beat it. Razorspam is very mobile but also somewhat fragile and relies upon going first plus 5 man assault squads are not good in melee overall... Sure they can beat down on guardsmen and Fire Warriors but they will struggle versus most other MEQ units - it is what it is. While you can shoot every game turn assaults can occur every player turn. DoA should be played aggressively which is a strong approach to the game... Fortune favors the bold.

 

G :)

[Deschenus Maximus]

@BO: it's funny, I would actually rate DoA as the least competitive list (talking about pure DoA here, not jumpers + devs, which is another thing) due to having so many bad matchups.

 

Razorspam doesn't rely on going first. I don't know how you came to that conclusion but it's just not true. It helps, sure, but there are quite a few times where I prefer to go second when given the opportunity. Also, 5-men assault squads might be underwhelming when taken individually, but when they do a combined charge, they become quite decent. "Most other MEQ units" fall fairly quickly when they get shot up and assaulted by 3-5 x 5 Furious-Charging ASM.

 

Assaults occur every player term, but also don't start till turn 3, generally (turn 2 in some instances). By the time you start beating heads in CC, your guns will have had 3 turns to cause damage.

[Black Memories]

The problem is people always want to show how superior GKPs are against assault marines or something else ridiculous, but they aren't matching them up to our elite choices, which is what Paladin units truly are. If you want to matchup paladins against something that is on their level, the fight becomes a LOT more even in a hurry.

 

For example--Paladins do NOT match up well against stormshield/thunderhammer(or powerfist) veterans. I'd be of the opinion that vanguard vets or HG loaded out for close combat would lay a beating on some paladins. Assault terminators and some pre-assault shooting are how I deal with Paladins and that works just about everytime. Without actually using draigo in the squad, paladins just aren't that scary. Also having a librarian nearby the the hood is a good idea.

 

Honestly paladins with Halberds are what I'd consider to be the weaker setup, especially combat based. Stormshields and thunderhammers think paladins are cute and overpirced. Even factoring in losing a guy before he strikes, the ss/th veterans still win a combat against GKP with 4 halberds and a hammer and a hammer with hammerhand cast and that's without any characters present in the unit and neither side charging. Locked combat the th/ss vets win. With a banner and a daemon hammer the GKP's come to right at 2.35 wounds average. Counting a man down the vets win averaging 2.5 wounds (instant death wounds). Counting 2 men down (which is less likely since the hammer is what pushes the margin over 2 wounds) the veterans are averaging 1.94 wounds, so still a very even contest. In round 2 of the lopsided combat the GKP score on average (3 members left) .88 wounds with hammerhand and 1.4 total (with banner still) with the hammer added in. The Veterans score 1.94 with 3 and 1.39 with 2 members left. This is a dead even matchup with no character help for the veterans.

 

Charging the GKP's will on average kill right at 3 th/ss vets and lose 1.94 (2) GKPs. This is with hammerhand and a daemon hammer and a banner. If the veterans charge they will inflict 4.46 wounds if no one dies, and 3.89 if a member dies (average). This means they could be expected to win the combat handily as usually only 1 GKP will remain for the next round.

 

Again this is all done with 5 GKP with 4 halberds and 1 daemonhammer with hammerhand successfully cast and a banner. There are 5 veterans with 5 th/ss, no furious charge, no fnp or character buffs.

 

I have absolutely no fear of GKPs because i know this. Only Draigo concerns me in combat. Are the veterans absolutely no question hands down better? No, but they can be expected at worst to bog down and stall the GKP unit until help arrives, or with lucky rolls win outright. Remember removing his GKP units will almost always cripple the army, especially at anything below 1850.

[AbusePuppy]

And the Indians can win the World Series...

 

I would love to know these amazing magical tactics that you fail to mention...

 

**deletia**

 

Already posted in the Draigowing vs DoA thread. Read it or not, as you please.

 

Did i miss something????

 

You missed the part where you don't charge into combat with them if it's 1v1.

 

 

Those are the 3 broad categories that I see discussed throughout the interwebs. All of the lists that you listed are variations of a broader category (which is much appreciated of course).

 

Hybrid Mech/DoA is any mix of Jump Troops and Heavy Mech. Often something akin to Rhino/Razor TAC/RAS + SG/JP RAS/VV/JP HG and fill in from there.

Pure DoA is pretty self explanatory - the Blood Rodeo is a mix of DoA and a string of bikers for a turn one turbo boost (3+ cover) which confers a 4+cover to everything behind it. Think DoA without the D.

 

Alright, I guess I understand what you meant now, but I strongly disagree; those are pretty poor categorizations that don't really delineate along major strategies or strengths. Hybrid mech/DoA is... basically just a very middling plan; you're giving your opponent infantry and vehicle targets to shoot, which is what you don't want to be doing. What are each of the respective halves getting you that the other can't accomplish? Nothing, really.

 

(I know what Blood Rodeo is, Kirby basically coined the term over on 3++ where I mostly post, at least to the best of my knowledge.)

 

To make it clear I don't have a problem versus the average DE player. We can talk on the internet about which army should always win until the cows come home but that's just not the way it is. Again, I'm really focusing on your top tier Dark Eldar player vs. Blood Angels. No, I have almost no problems defeating the average DE player - but one of our top 3 players in the area is DE and it's an auto-loss when I play my Daemons and a very hard fought battle when I use my BA (Hybrid, Pure Mech, or Pure DoA don't think I've beat him yet). I think our main struggle versus DE is that they can field quite a bit more than us at the same points level. They have excellent high power shooting, high mobility, and the ability to hide that last transport for an end game objective grab (yes, we do that too, they just have more on the table to do it with). There CC prowess isn't anything to scoff at either.

 

No surprise with Daemons, as they're a pretty awful army to try and use competitively and DE do to them what GK does to 'Nids.

 

I'm not really sure what you think the problem is with DE vs BA- yes, DE can have good shooting or CC and pretty much always have excellent mobility, but those aren't really problems for BA. We have long-range shooting to bring down their transports, the resilience to weather their shooting, and only their CC specialists can hope to match up against our basic troops. (Their specialists mostly trump our units, but that's what shooting is for.) Stopping last-turn objective grabs is... basically just part of the game, if you can't do that, you can't beat IG, DE, BA, Eldar, GK, etc.

 

I think all of this DoA talk against Draigo-wing and how we can just plop down and shoot with Melta-guns is really reaching for it. Warpquake is an auto-mishap within 12". Depending on the mission, that GK player is going to Combat Squad his Warp-Quake fellows and cover a very large portion of the table. If you think you're going to drop in with your Melta-HG and 2 to 3 squads of Melta RAS, try it and let me know hot it goes. On top of that, if your local Draigo-Pally player isn't pulling wound-allocation shennanigans with Master Crafted Weapons, Halbreds, Swords, etc. then he's probably doing it wrong.

 

That's because the tactic is dumb and and not how you beat Draigowing; it's like saying the key to beating IG is going first. (Also keep in mind that Warpquake only comes on GKSS and Interceptors, so a "pure" Draigowing list won't have access to it- of course, that doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't be DSing against them in the first place, but...)

 

On to Space Wolves - bottom line is: tough match up. I may be alone in this, but I feel like they out-shoot us and out-CC us on every level. What are you doing against your top tier Space Puppy players? We have the mobility, so I've had success shoving my DC and Furioso down there throats. Is Raven/Dread spam the key to the Pups and GK? I can imagine that most GK players wouldn't want to be in combat with a front armor 13 Dread with Blood Talons. Is anyone Competitively running Dual/Triple Ravens with 2-3 Furioso's?

 

Um, what? Shooting, okay, I can see that- they have marginally cheaper LasPlas and the LF are generally better than Devs. But CC? No, we're winning that fight. Throw ten ASM in Priest range against ten GH with a Banner and see what happens- the results are not pretty for the GH. TWC are scary... unless you multicharge them or send TH/SS or SG or Death Co with a Chappy or whatever. They are heavily reliant on T5 to protect them, and with 3+ and two wounds, they fall quickly once you start doing damage.

 

I don't think Stormraven lists are a top-tier play (at least by my standards), as it's way too much of a rock army, but it is an option. (Remember that GK Hammers are S10 more often than not, so front AV13 is actually much less scary to them than it is to most people.)

 

I also read somewhere in there that Close Combat is really the way of 5th edition. I think you were right for a while... but something's changed. I think the Shooting Phase is the true game winner now, in most cases. Combined with less catosrophic destroyed transport results, I think this is why we still see a general lean towards Mech. A large fire base and a sprinkle of hammer-hard CC unit (Mephiston or TH/SS Termies) is what I'm seeing more and more.

 

5E favors shooting over CC, in most respects. There's plenty to be said for having CC support for countercharges, alternate strategies, etc, but the real truth is that you can build a shooting-only army, but you can't build a CC-only army. The prevalence of mech (and melee's inability to handle tanks) kills it; I'm not sure who it was that thought melee was king in 5E, but that has never been true.

[Morticon]

There's plenty to be said for having CC support for countercharges, alternate strategies, etc, but the real truth is that you can build a shooting-only army, but you can't build a CC-only army. The prevalence of mech (and melee's inability to handle tanks) kills it; I'm not sure who it was that thought melee was king in 5E, but that has never been true.

 

Entirely CC (ie: no shooting) Daemons won SA Nationals 2008,2009, and played for 1st place this weekend at the 2011 Nationals (lost to DE).

 

Things aren't quite as black and white as you've made it out to be. But, I would acknowledge that's the exception rather than the rule.

What works/doesnt work in some areas, may work/not work in others.

[Black Memories]

I think it's fair to point out at this point that much of this advice is extremely varied and probably all truthful and successful in it's own right. I think the moral here is probably that BA is a very competitive codex and there are a lot of ways to be able to take advantage of it. Some conventional and some not so much. It just depends on your personal play style and ability to use what is available to your to the best of your abilities.

[Morticon]

I think it's fair to point out at this point that much of this advice is extremely varied and probably all truthful and successful in it's own right.

 

Agreed. It's partly why subjective or dogmatic language bugs the heck outta me.

[SamaNagol]

The BA codex is built to max out on MSU. It's amusing how blatant it is.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

MSU BA has not won any major tourneys. It is a fun army.

 

G <_<

[Deschenus Maximus]

MSU BA has not won any major tourneys. It is a fun army.

 

G :P

 

That's not indicative of much, truth be told.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It shows how it matches up versus other top meta lists. To me that says something worth noting.

 

G :P

[The Crimson Cartel]

(DoA is entirely capable of beating Draigowing, although I won't say it's an easy fight; it's only the cripplingly-poor tactics espoused in most of that thread that prevent players from beating it.)

 

I would love to know these amazing magical tactics that you fail to mention...

 

Just a quick Straight up looking at the two armies..

 

10 RAS w/2xMG, sgt w/IP/PW + SP w/JP/IP/PW (305 pts)

5 GKP w/4xHalb, 2xPC, Banner (340 pts)

 

So with 11 men to 5 advantage...

 

Did i miss something????

 

^

Landrain, I've edited your post just a bit to highlight the bit I wanted to talk about. Others have got to this before I have, but I think this is the SINGLE BIGGEST MISTAKE most players will make when getting into combat, GK DraigoWing or Otherwise.. Never make it a straight up fight, ALWAYS make it to your advantage. When you charge 1v1 vs Pallys, the numbers will come out just as you say, most of the time. So why do it that way? numbers numbers numbers.. bring more than 1 unit vs his unit. BA have the advantage of being able to do this quite effectively. Rule 1 of Combat should be "Never make it a fair fight."

My 2

 

-CC

[Deschenus Maximus]

It shows how it matches up versus other top meta lists. To me that says something worth noting.

 

G :P

 

There's far too many variables to reach any solid conclusions from that. Sometime, it can be as silly as having severe comp penalties associated with playing Mech that would push a top player to go with DoA instead. Just a quick example of how something completely unrelated to the quality of a list can affect its popularity and success rate in a tourney.

[Atlantic]

Maybe I'm just the slow one in the group, but I don't really see too much of a problem with Draigo or DE. It is just a matter of focusing your fire and then multi charging.

 

It also seems to me that there is a bit too much emphasis on creating pure units or attempting to be absolutely dominant in one particular aspect. I'm not nearly as experienced as some of you guys, but I believe it may be more useful to try and build lists and tactics around attempting to create mis matches.

 

Other than against true swarm armies that can outflank (damn genestealers) I seem to do pretty well with a mixed blood angels army (of course it is entirely possible my opponents stink too). I just try to stay balanced between shooting and cc, mech and inf, toss in some flavor and take advantage of what the codex gives me.

 

I think the real strength of the BA codex is to outnumber the elite, out move the slow, out shoot 3/4 of the other armies, and out assault most of the other units in the game.

 

Too many people seem to get hung up on DOA, Dante, Mephiston, and the fun stuff we get. They should be used as complementary tactics as opposed to forming any sort of grand strategy.

 

It is all good if used correctly and what exactly is wrong with that? Surely a versatile army that moves well is much more rewarding than a one dimensional assault force.