Competitive Blood Angels

[Black Memories]

It shows how it matches up versus other top meta lists. To me that says something worth noting.

 

G

 

There's far too many variables to reach any solid conclusions from that. Sometime, it can be as silly as having severe comp penalties associated with playing Mech that would push a top player to go with DoA instead. Just a quick example of how something completely unrelated to the quality of a list can affect its popularity and success rate in a tourney.

 

 

MSU Blood Angels are very popular in tournaments and there are no comp penalties in the US and they still don't win ANY major tournaments here (and dont place in the finals often either). While I agree that isn't a very clear picture, it is a pretty telling statistic, especially since so many razorspam BA players swear up and down its the most competitive build that can do anything. The lists that have been placing high in a lot of major tournaments seem to be more hybrid based, getting away from razor spam a bit and utilizing some jump packs and other advantages BA have (assault/persistent speed).

[Morticon]

MSU Blood Angels are very popular in tournaments and there are no comp penalties in the US and they still don't win ANY major tournaments here (and dont place in the finals often either). While I agree that isn't a very clear picture, it is a pretty telling statistic, especially since so many razorspam BA players swear up and down its the most competitive build that can do anything. The lists that have been placing high in a lot of major tournaments seem to be more hybrid based, getting away from razor spam a bit and utilizing some jump packs and other advantages BA have (assault/persistent speed).

 

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!

 

Give this man a prize!!!

Well said dude.

 

 

 

I think the real strength of the BA codex is to outnumber the elite, out move the slow, out shoot 3/4 of the other armies, and out assault most of the other units in the game.

Too many people seem to get hung up on DOA, Dante, Mephiston, and the fun stuff we get. They should be used as complementary tactics as opposed to forming any sort of grand strategy.

It is all good if used correctly and what exactly is wrong with that? Surely a versatile army that moves well is much more rewarding than a one dimensional assault force.

 

this too!!

[Jolemai]

Sorry, but what does the MSU acronym stand for please?

[Vilicate]

Multiple Small Units.

[Jolemai]

Cheers :D

 

(Still getting used to the nomenclature here.)

[Brother Landrain]

(DoA is entirely capable of beating Draigowing, although I won't say it's an easy fight; it's only the cripplingly-poor tactics espoused in most of that thread that prevent players from beating it.)

 

I would love to know these amazing magical tactics that you fail to mention...

 

Just a quick Straight up looking at the two armies..

 

10 RAS w/2xMG, sgt w/IP/PW + SP w/JP/IP/PW (305 pts)

5 GKP w/4xHalb, 2xPC, Banner (340 pts)

 

So with 11 men to 5 advantage...

 

Did i miss something????

 

^

Landrain, I've edited your post just a bit to highlight the bit I wanted to talk about. Others have got to this before I have, but I think this is the SINGLE BIGGEST MISTAKE most players will make when getting into combat, GK DraigoWing or Otherwise.. Never make it a straight up fight, ALWAYS make it to your advantage. When you charge 1v1 vs Pallys, the numbers will come out just as you say, most of the time. So why do it that way? numbers numbers numbers.. bring more than 1 unit vs his unit. BA have the advantage of being able to do this quite effectively. Rule 1 of Combat should be "Never make it a fair fight."

My 2

 

-CC

 

 

OK.. 33 RAS charge 5 GKP... thats (3x2.44 wounds=7.32 wounds) and 1 Dead Pally vs vs 4 Dead RAS.. meaning now 3 squads need to take morale checks at -3 each...

 

A Multiple charge doesnt rally help much considering that we need to have basically an 8 to 1 advantage in order to come out on top in wounds... (due to GKP having 2W and wound allocation, etc.)

 

YES, TH/SS Termies w/SP will be an even or even a matchup that slightly favors the BA. But you also need to figure in, how are those TH/SS Termies going to get into combat? If you run a 10 man squad it won't be in a LR/SR/DP, that means a DS or footslogging it., with zero Ranged attacks. Meaning that those TH/SS Termies will face the full brunt of GK Shooting, which is not exactly their biggest weakness. And while a 2+/3++ save is great, it does fall to sustained fire. It only takes ~4 guys with SB's to kill 1 TH/SS Termy a turn, Which last I checked, every one in their army HAS at least A SB. So at 24" Range TH/SS -1, GK 0. You move + Run 9", they back up 6" Range 21" TH/SS -2, GK 0, Range 18" TH/ss -3, GK 0... Putting the TH/SS in a LRC with a SP is viable. but then that also now costs MORE than the GKP squad, and is an elite choice vs the Draigo Troops... But then TH/SS with a LRC is not exactly a DOA army...

 

Vanguard Tricked out with PW/SS also are an option, but then you lose an attack, can't Heroic Intervention with a SP, and now costs more than the GKP's... so we are not exactly winning the war of attrition here...

 

And the Indians can win the World Series...

 

I would love to know these amazing magical tactics that you fail to mention...

 

**deletia**

 

Already posted in the Draigowing vs DoA thread. Read it or not, as you please.

 

Did i miss something????

 

You missed the part where you don't charge into combat with them if it's 1v1.

 

The easiest way to beat Draigo and Pals is by using your strengths on his weaknesses. Paladins are slow and expensive; you're fast and flexible. Their shooting is mediocre and you have high resilience, so basically you just need to play to the objectives and avoid direct confrontations for the most part. If he has any support units (like Psyflemen), target them first, as they'll be a lot easier to bring down than his main forces.

 

As I read your post, it say basically.. RUN AWAY from Draigo Wing. To me that is not exactly being competitive with DraigoWing.

 

While I wouldn't say that DraigoWing are the best shooting units in the game, but a 30" effective threat Range with 8 Str 5 AP 5 shots and 8 Str 7 AP 4 Rending shots is not too shabby for a 5 man squad. I am really at a loss to come up with very many suqds that can fire as many rounds at such a strength, while the AP could be improved, the ROF is not mediocre, and Rending trumps FNP. And while yes they are weaker than MEQ at long Range compared to units such as Long Fangs (isn't everyone ?) with really only 3 options for more than 24" LR's, SR's, and Psyfilmen Dreads @ 135 pts 4 Str 8 Ap 4 twin linked shots is pretty efficient, imo.

 

As I stated above in most standard builds, you will need an ~ 8 to 1 advantage in order to cause an equivalent number of Paladin Deaths as RAS deaths in Close Combat, and for all intents purposes charging doesn't make much of a difference...

[Black Memories]

Your math is a bit off. It takes 7 guys (14 attempted shots) on average to kill 1 terminator with stormbolters with psybolts. Not sure where you got your math but I ran .667*.667*..1667 (hit x wound x armor save) and came up with 14 getting 1.01 wounds. With feel no pain (which i wasn't giving the vets or terminators, but lets add in for the sake of durability) you're looking at .667*.667*.1667*.5 which is about a 3.7% chance per shot to drop one. Thats about 27 attempted shots or in other words 14 (rounding up from 13..5 since you can't buy half a grey knight) psybolt stormbolter grey knights focus firing the terminators to kill 1 FnP terminator. Color me unconcerned about your shooting against me terminators. If you want to factor in rending from psycannons, with 4 shots you're looking at a 14% chance to rend and kill a terminator with 18% chance per round of shooting with a psycannon to kill a FnP terminator without rending (those are not cumulative so don't add them together). What I'm getting at is that you're flat unlikely to kill a FnP assault terminator in shooting before you charge a GKP squad into them, so I didn't include the calculations.

 

Either way, GK shooting is not as scary against Blood Angels infantry as it is some other armies due to feel no pain. That said you don't want to just sit in front of it. I don't like these vacuum arguments because no one runs an army of just GKP against assault terminators. Other stuff in my army is doing other things as well. I'm just pointing out an unfavorable matchup for the GKP squad.

[Brother_Byhlli]

OK.. 33 RAS charge 5 GKP... thats (3x2.44 wounds=7.32 wounds) and 1 Dead Pally vs vs 4 Dead RAS.. meaning now 3 squads need to take morale checks at -3 each...

 

I do wish you'd stop making up numbers.

 

I don't have a Grey Knights Codex to hand, so I'm going to make the following assumptions, based entirely on your scenario:

 

1. Three Blood Angels Assault Squads get a multiple charge against a unit of five Grey Knight Paladins.
   
2. The Assault Squads have two meltaguns each, but no special weapons on the Sergeants.
   
3. The Blood Angels have neither Feel No Pain nor Furious Charge.
   
4. Of the five Grey Knight Paladins, four have halberds and one has a demon hammer.
   
5. The halberds are force weapons which strike before the Blood Angels.
   
6. The demon hammer acts the same as a thunder hammer.
   

So, we open with six meltaguns and twenty-four bolt pistols:

 

24 bolt pistol shots = 16 hits = 8 wounds = 4/3 failed armour saves = 4/3 unsaved wounds

6 meltagun shots = 4 hits = 10/3 wounds = 20/9 failed invulnerable saves = 20/9 unsaved wounds

Even before we get into combat, meltagun fire has killed 2.22 Paladins and bolt pistol fire has removed 1.33 wounds from the squad. So, let's round down and say the meltaguns have killed two Paladins and the bolt pistols have caused 1 wound. We have two fully-healthy Paladins plus one Paladin with a single wound remaining. In order that they all get to fight, I'm going to assume that all three remaining Paladins have halberds.

 

The Paladins strike first in combat:

 

9 halberd attacks = 9/2 hits = 9/4 wounds = 9/4 unsaved wounds

We'll be generous to the Paladins again and round that up to 3 wounds caused by the Paladins, which is three dead Assault Squad Space Marines. The Assault Squads now strike back:

 

84 chainsword/close-combat weapon attacks = 42 hits = 21 wounds = 21/6 unsaved wounds

Again, being generous, we can round that down to 3 wounds caused by the Assault Squads, which removes the Paladin with one wound plus one other Paladin.

 

Rounding every single combat up or down hugely in favour of the Paladins, the combat is statistically a draw and the Paladin unit is down to one remaining man. The Assault Squads don't go anywhere near a leadership test and they certainly don't lose combat by three points. It's significantly more likely that the Paladins are wiped out to a man. (And so they should be - the Assault Squads are worth significantly more points than the Paladins.)

 

But the whole point is pretty much thoroughly moot, as others have already pointed out that we have units which are significantly better-equipped to beat up on Paladins than Assault Squads. I just wanted to address your maths.

 

Edit: I gave the Paladins three attacks each receiving a charge because I don't actually know offhand how many attacks they have, though I suspect it's not as many as three. I'm also aware that I lack knowledge of the Grey Knights Codex, so I could be missing out on something vital. If so, apologies - and I'd appreciate having it pointed out to me.

[Brother Landrain]

Your math is a bit off. It takes 7 guys (14 attempted shots) on average to kill 1 terminator with stormbolters with psybolts. Not sure where you got your math but I ran .667*.667*..1667 (hit x wound x armor save) and came up with 14 getting 1.01 wounds. With feel no pain (which i wasn't giving the vets or terminators, but lets add in for the sake of durability) you're looking at .667*.667*.1667*.5 which is about a 3.7% chance per shot to drop one. Thats about 27 attempted shots or in other words 14 (rounding up from 13..5 since you can't buy half a grey knight) psybolt stormbolter grey knights focus firing the terminators to kill 1 FnP terminator. Color me unconcerned about your shooting against me terminators. If you want to factor in rending from psycannons, with 4 shots you're looking at a 14% chance to rend and kill a terminator with 18% chance per round of shooting with a psycannon to kill a FnP terminator without rending (those are not cumulative so don't add them together). What I'm getting at is that you're flat unlikely to kill a FnP assault terminator in shooting before you charge a GKP squad into them, so I didn't include the calculations.

 

Either way, GK shooting is not as scary against Blood Angels infantry as it is some other armies due to feel no pain. That said you don't want to just sit in front of it. I don't like these vacuum arguments because no one runs an army of just GKP against assault terminators. Other stuff in my army is doing other things as well. I'm just pointing out an unfavorable matchup for the GKP squad.

I did not factor in having a SP with the TH/SS terminators initially

 

3 GKP with storm bolters. 6 x (0.667 to hit BS 4(3+))(0.667 to wound S5 vs. T4 (3+))(0.167 to fail a save(2+)) = (0.44) unsaved wounds FNP (0.22)

2 GKP with Psycannons. 8 X (0.667 to hit BS 4(3+))(0.833 to wound S7 vs. T4 (2+)) {(0.167 to fail a save(2+))*(.833(2+)) + (0.333 to fail inv(3++))*(0.167(6+))} = (0.89) unsaved wounds FNP (0.55)

(0.44) + (0.89) = 1.31 unsaved wounds FNP ~ (0.77)

 

If you have an Android Phone, there is an App Called...40Kalc that does all the mathhammer.

(although for some reason this calculation seems off when done on the app)

 

No it is not as scary against the Best Protected Heavy Infantry in the game, as it is against normal MEQ.

 

But then that foot slogging TH/SS squad now costs 310 points and takes up 2 Elite FOC slots, vs the GKP at 340 pts with one troop slot.

Give them a LRC and a Reclusiarch in TDA, and now 2 Hammer Squads cost 1440 points and take up 3 Elite and 2 HQ slots.

A BA Assault Terminator Squad in a LRC, with a Priest and a Chaplain is one of the strongest CC units in the game.

These 2 Squads will be able to put a hurting on some GKP units, that is true. But they wont score any objectives.

But at the same points cost (1415), GK can field Draigo with 3x5 Paladin units all with Banners, MC-PC, 3xHalberds,2xHammers, they can also have CA or reroll ones.

And Draigo is just a tad bit better at CC than normal Marines...

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying BA suck. But against Draigowing, it can be very hard to be competitive, especially with DOA.

Razorspam however will do much better, with all the Las/Plas, TLLC, Vindicators and Baal's

[Brother_Byhlli]

As I stated above in most standard builds, you will need an ~ 8 to 1 advantage in order to cause an equivalent number of Paladin Deaths as RAS deaths in Close Combat, and for all intents purposes charging doesn't make much of a difference...

 

Two Assault Squads with meltaguns, infernus pistol and power fist plus a single Sanguinary Priest will statistically cause one death and one wound through shooting followed by two wounds and two instant deaths from power fists, with absolutely everything being rounded down (sometimes significantly - I think that statistically I've wiped more than one full wound off the combat). That's for the loss of two Assault Squad Space Marines.

 

Having Furious Charge makes a significant difference to the combat resolution if you get the charge off.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Uhhhhggg. Sorry, also to say that my head's numb from lack of sleep. I may have just posted a load of absolute nonsense. :/

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah I am like sure... I'll just stand here so you can fly up with three squads, shoot me and assault. What was I thinking ?

 

G ;)

[BigBaals]

Yeah I am like sure... I'll just stand here so you can fly up with three squads, shoot me and assault. What was I thinking ?

 

G :D

 

 

Winner winner chicken dinner.

 

So, as I said before, we can talk about how BA should beat DE everytime, and how simple it is to just shoot GK and at the same time stay away from them... or maneuver in such a way as to get some important units into assault range. Here's the reality of it (and I fully expect major flamage or claims of extremely poor tactics - so feel free...) when you stick your Death Company (arguably our best assault unit) and a Furioso with Talons in a Raven (again, arguably the best way to get these two units simultaneously into combat with Draigo and the gang... because that's what we're talking about here right?) I'll let you know exactly how it's going to play out - because I've done it.

 

The Raven's going to get shot down. Turbo boost for your 4+, but GK have amazing shooting. It's the same theory behind TH/SS termies - shoot it enough and it dies. Any solid GK opponent will look across the table and see a Raven' full of DC and a Dread and recognize it as a key assault unit. That being said, there's no doubt in my mind that there is a unit of GK's with Psycannons or a couple Dreads with some ST7 shooting. Enough of that will bring down your Raven'. A lucky roll will bring down your Raven' and leave enough shooting left to take out problem 2 - the Furioso. Yes, it's front armor 13, but immobilize it and it's done for the game. That leaves your 8 man DC on foot and within sight of said Draigo-Death. As it plays out, the DC get the charge (Rage happens, you can't always have something there to block LOS) and of course they loose combat by a few, and at best cause a couple wounds in return.

 

Back to the broader topic. I've probably had the most success with Stormravenless pure DoA lists with Vangaurd Vets + Astorath + Priests + Assault Squads. A single Raven' doesn't seem to do it - but that seems to be the mantra in most Marine theory - take 2+ or take 0. It also tends to be the most fun list for me personally. It generally fails against armies that do Assault better though. Tyranids are a tough battle, Daemons are also tough (seriously, play a competent Daemon player), and obviously GK are auto-fail. I think the idea tactically for DoA is to pick a flank and attack it. Seems that simple. You're not going to win the shooting phase, but you can pop transports and you certainly have more movement.

 

I don't see much discussion about I.G., but perhaps that's because we've figured out how to dismantle it.

[SamaNagol]

Hey, if I have a Stormraven with 700pts of Assault in it it is starting in reserve against GK and I am using ALL of my long range shooting to Kill the Psyflemen dreads.

 

And then I will take my chances with a 4+ invuln vs Psycannon that need 6s to pen and are rolling flat on Damage with no AP1 boost.

 

And if they are running 5 Dreads then it means they have no infantry support. All the better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

DoA is great versus IG.

 

To me it is a wonder why Mat Ward invalidated one codex with another. I like the extreme examples of detail he can put into a codex in regard to new units and new wargear. Sure he borrows from older books - who doesn't? I like that GW kept him onboard after he kind of tanked 7th edition WFB with the daemon codex. He is still kind of doing the same thing in 40k. If you love the game you have to roll with it. It's all kind of crazy - that's life though as far as I'm concerned .

 

G :lol: