Potential DA player looking for some answers

[drbro1228]

Hello everyone, I stalk this sight regularly and find that this community is very helpful to all its members. Due to the fact that i go in and out of my 40k phases, i tend not to get involved on the forums that much.

 

I come to you guys for some help in choosing whether or not to play DA. My request may be a bit harder so answer, since its a little vague. I want to know who the DA's are? i know the back story and how the army work to some extent, but i want to know the philosophies/doctrines that the DA uphold. For example, the Thousand Sons are greatly influenced by Plato and Socrates in the way that the Chapter acts. Pursuing knowledge and always looking to better themselves.

 

so my questions are...

 

- what do the DA's represent?

- what philosophies/doctrines do they uphold?

- what was Lion El Johnson like(personality)?

- any good DA novels to find out more info/inspiration?

 

I hope this makes sense. I really like to relate to my space marine armies and know what there all about.

 

Thanks for your time,

Drbro

[king tiger 101]

lexicanium might be useful for some of your questions

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Angels

[drbro1228]

while the link you provided is nice, it still just gives the basic info that i can get from the DA codex. I'm looking for more in depth answers about who the DA are

[Bryan Blaire]

Novels: Angels of Darkness, Descent of Angels, Fallen Angels, Purging of Kadillus

Novellas in Horus Heresy anthologies: Call of the Lion in Tales of Heresy, Savage Weapons in Age of Darkness

 

Lion El'Johnson is actually written to have little personality, preferring to stay somewhat in shadow and tense most of the time, and having poor interaction and seeming to have little empathy with humanity and even many of his gene-sons. He remained to some extent a part of the wildness of Caliban, the greatest Great Beast that the Order never destroyed (although I don't believe he was all that touched by Chaos and we now know that he was in fact loyal to the Emperor - although what that actually entails for him may be able to be argued some). The Lion was originally depicted as a strategic/tactical genius, YMMV when analyzing his status as such based on the novels.

 

The DA are the eternal hunt and seekers of redemption (whether required or not) personified.

[Captain Semper]

Hello everyone, I stalk this sight regularly and find that this community is very helpful to all its members. Due to the fact that i go in and out of my 40k phases, i tend not to get involved on the forums that much.

 

I come to you guys for some help in choosing whether or not to play DA. My request may be a bit harder so answer, since its a little vague. I want to know who the DA's are? i know the back story and how the army work to some extent, but i want to know the philosophies/doctrines that the DA uphold. For example, the Thousand Sons are greatly influenced by Plato and Socrates in the way that the Chapter acts. Pursuing knowledge and always looking to better themselves.

 

so my questions are..

 

- what do the DA's represent?

 

What indeed? To me DAs suffered from a discontinuity after the Heresy. So unlike many Chapters that define themselves through their pre-Heresy or indeed Heresy-era deeds and standing ( in the case of DAs that would be a noble, knight-like background) the 40k DAs are a clandestine oganization that follows its own agenda. They view their own redemption (through capturing/killing all the Fallen) as the greatest service to the Emperor, superceding all other considerations. The entire Chapter (or should I say Legion?) is geared towards that end. It's like they have a personal relation to the Emperor and the rest that is happening in the 40k Universe is just noise... If/when they redeem themselves then they'll look on what else is there to do. That makes them introvert and extrermly cautious to outsiders. A historic analogy I guess would be the Spanish Inquisition in the sense that it was a self-serving organization, with the absolute faith in its righteousness and utilized all means and resources necessary to meet its goals. Oh! and they are not above using torture to get there... ***waiting for an expert on Spanish Inquisition to tell me I got everything wrong :)***

 

- what philosophies/doctrines do they uphold?

 

I think "the end justifies the means" motto is a defining feature for DAs. It's just that the end is a personal thing -not a noble ideal. Of course to them their own redemption is a noble ideal! It's just another controversy about DAs! Background-wise they follow the Codex in terms of combat doctrines but of course their overriding agenda means that 1st & 2nd Companies work closer together for capturing the Fallen (although 2nd Company Marines are not aware of that :D). They also have little tolerence for Xenos and abhumans. DAs gene-seed is also considered one of the purest around!

 

- what was Lion El Johnson like(personality)?

 

What Brian Blair said but it's not that he has little personality but that it is largely unexplored despite two HH books dedicated to DAs (I think both of them to be sub-par and not doing much justice to the Lion). I guess you could say he is cold-blooded in his thinking and strategy having little concern on humanitarian aspects. He definately epitomises "the end justifies the means" motto. He is also a bit paranoid and distrustful by nature which ties with the "he doesn't get people" attribute of his character. As he had noone to rely on as an infant in a predatory world he only relied on his own (considerable) abilities. His relation to Luther was supposedly meant to plug this gap.

 

- any good DA novels to find out more info/inspiration?

 

Novels on DAs: "Angels of Darkness" by Gav Thorpe, the two HH novels "Decent of Angels" by Mitchel Scanlon and "Fallen Angels" by Mike Lee, two short stories: The "Lion's Call" from the "Tales of Heresy" anthology and the "Savage Weapons" by Aaron Dembski-Bowden from the "Age of Darkness" anthology as well as the "Purging of Kadillus" from the Space Marines Battle series again by Gav Thorpe. There were also some older short stories that can be found in various prints and anthologies (Black Pearl and Deathwing come to mind). Whether they are good or not is subjective but let's just say that I am not a big fan of the two HH novels. At all.

 

I hope this makes sense. I really like to relate to my space marine armies and know what there all about.

 

Thanks for your time,

Drbro

 

Well I hope this was of some help. If you are looking for heroes doing heroic deeds, well, the Ultras are for you. If you're looking for a dark organization that accepts no authority but its own and has a secret agenda, well, welcome to the Rock!!! :huh:

[Zincite]

- what do the DA's represent?

Generally the more 'Knightly' theme. There's a strong theme of tradition and honour within them, and they follow it well. The robes, swords, bikes ('Horses') and other such things make them a vision of the past ages.

 

However because of the betrayal they obviously are very dark, menacing, almost evil. We're pretty much the guy who sits in the corner, muttering insults at everyone else as they bicker among themselves.

 

Others see them as representing pride, honour, and duty to most people of the Imperium. They are first among the Space Marine legions, and they are as much 'heros' as the Salamanders, Imperial Fists, and other chapters.

 

Though they are know upon occasion to not lend help when it is asked for, or leave in the middle of a campaign, they nonetheless have a good reputation among the other warriors of the Imperium.

 

- what philosophies/doctrines do they uphold?

The Dark Angels are very monistic, commonly spending a lot of time in prayer. They also are reputed as being exceptionally stubborn, sometimes to the point of what seems foolishness.

 

Their Motto of sorts is the well-known, "A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy. Never forget, never forgive." This pretty much shows their mindset. Once you piss off the Unforgiven, you're pretty much dead.

 

Also, as Captain Semper says, the ends always justifies the means.

 

- what was Lion El Johnson like(personality)?

We know he was a sneaky bastard, and knew how to get what he needed. He guarded himself well, but we see him as a reclusive, secretive character, after joining the legion rarely prone to happiness in any good measure.

 

He was also a great military leader, his campaigns and battles well thought-out.

 

- any good DA novels to find out more info/inspiration?

Already answered, so I won't repeat it.

 

If my random rantings haven't put you off, Welcome to the Unforgiven, Brother!

[Augustus]

The Lion made a name for himself FAST

 

First Heretic mentions him in passing as being brilliant tactically/strategically (forget which)--after only around 10 years of crusading. Wow..

 

I envision him as one of the most breathtaking generals of all time. But like all generals that meddle in politics, they show little knowledge of sneaky politician-like backstabbing. Caesar much? Then after the heresy really kicks off, he goes back into "lone-wolf in the forest mode" suspects everyone and everything and it is this trait that legion most reflects today.

[drbro1228]

wow, I didn't expect to get such great answers. thank you very much. I think I'm convinced, still need to do a little planning, but the DA's definitely seem to be very unique from the other chapters(which is good).

 

The DA's seem to have a lot of character based on what you guys have said, and also have the ability to personalize their own agenda above others(think for themselves, not just the Emperium), which is also good. It still a toss up between DA's and BA's, but its going to be a much harder decision now.

 

Feel free to add any more info about the DA's, or try and convert me ;). the more information i have the better.

 

thanks again for the help,

Drbro

[Bryan Blaire]

Considering the Blood Angel penchant for aesthetic beauty, I have become convinced that they resemble the sparkly vampires of Twilight (which is an awful book, according to my missus). You don't want to be a Sparkly Marine, do ya? Dark Angels 2011! Blood Angels are shiny, while we are the Empire's true shadowy defenders! (Kinda like Batman-not the psycho Night Lord version-the Dark Knight)

 

Vote DA! Vote DA!

 

;)

[Captain Semper]

Well, to be fair, it is a tough choice. BAs have a distinct look, a clear-cut close combat bias (as has 40k in general), really nice miniatures AND a dark secret.

 

But whereas the BAs secret is a genetic one, where the poor BAs can't do much about (with the exception of Mephiston perhaps) DAs secret is one of choice! That's what makes them sinister in my view. They choose to behave the way they do, unlike BAs that, well... they cover up a genetic malfunction. One can almost feel sorry for them, an otherwise loyal and honorable chapter, firmly in the service of the Imperium that have to suffer through no fault of their own. Tragic!

 

Enter DAs: they choose a way to redeem themselves, they choose to place that above all else and they pursue their aims singlemindedly! That for me gives them the edge. No redeeming feature. They decided they'll be in the shadows and stick to it. You gotta love them!

 

And in Bryan Blair's words: Vote DAs!

[Brother dean]

Blood Angels are shiny, while we are the Empire's true shadowy defenders! (Kinda like Batman-not the psycho Night Lord version-the Dark Knight)

 

This.

 

DA's are very much the vigilante's of the 40k Universe. Laws are interesting things for the police (UMs) to follow. Single minded in purpose, but will help out the cops (Imperium) as needed but if the joker (Fallen) pops his head up the simple mugger (Orks, Eldar, nids) will be left with a broken arm chained to a pipe in an alley till the PDF can come by and pick them up. Especially for this they are criticised for "abandoning" a campaign but if you look at the histories they havent left the Imperium in a hopeless situation, just if they had stayed the campaign would have been over much quicker...

[Brother Immolator]

Especially for this they are criticised for "abandoning" a campaign but if you look at the histories they havent left the Imperium in a hopeless situation, just if they had stayed the campaign would have been over much quicker...

 

Well the gatlingHive's residents might argue about this,but they are all dead now...

 

Ofc it was a successor chapter that left them,but i guess the 'boss' had something to do with it.\

 

To the OP:Come on,you like more the brooding dark monastic look of the DA's than Edward clone's vampires that are good at sculpting and painting...

[drbro1228]

very compelling arguments. especially the "vote DA part", how can i refuse? :)

 

in all seriousness though, Captain Semper brought up a good point. the fact how DA choose to pursue their secret is very interesting to me. The DA's know they are thought of differently by the imperium for there illusive ways, and has set their reputation(along with the reputation of their primarch) on the line. I think ill give the DA a shot!

 

Thanks again for everyone's help. I'm a philosophy student, so i tend to over think things and i appreciate the quality of posts i got here.

 

Now for step 2. how to start? i own the DA codex already, so what models should i get first?

[Captain Semper]

Good to see you firmly on the Rock! :) Now regarding army builds there are others more capable than me to offer advice but I guess the Deathwing/Ravenwing combo is a good, fluffy start. Add to that the respective Masters and you got a good starting point... And a joy to paint too! (everybody loves termies & bikes)!

 

Keep in mind that Successors also offer interesting alternatives in terms of paint schemes ,if you want originality or (like me) you find bone-white a nightmare to get right! :)

 

EDIT: Oh and keep in mind the FAQ! It makes a difference.

[skink]

Welcome aboard! A fine choice...

 

Probably the best place to start is which models you like the best, potentially using the Army List section on this board to inform your decisions further. There have been lots of threads about various builds and how players' opinions have progressively changed; scan through a couple of pages worth and look for the ones with the most replies, as these obviously have the most associated discussion.

 

The various Dark Angels models play much as you'd expect; Deathwing are relatively slow unless given a Land Raider as transport and can suffer from a lack of bodies on the table, but used well they are rock hard. Ravenwing are very different in that they are highly mobile, bringing lots of concentrated firepower to bear, but are very fragile. Company marines sort of play the middle ground; meched up, they are the jack of all trades, masters of none, and are somewhat poo pooed as they are much more expensive than comparable Codex Marines.

 

Just as an example... You can make a really nice 1000 point list containing Belial, an HQ Deathwing squad, a Tactical Squad (varibale loadout) in a Rhino, a 3 bike/1 Attackbike Ravenwing squadron and an Auto/Las Predator.

 

This contains (more or less!) every component Dark Angels can offer, and (in my opinion) feels fluffy, if not hugely competitive. After a few games with this, you would soon find yourself thinking "I wish I had more of Unit A, and I can never seem to get the most out of Unit B!", and this (again, in my opinion) is the best way for your force to grow and improve - it would end up suiting your playstyle, rather than being something an anonymous internet user told you (which, whilst great in their experience, may not be quite right for you for whatever reason).

 

Keep posting up your ideas and asking questions; they're sure to get answered!

[march10k]

While I love the idea of the Ravenwing...even fluff-wise, they aren't intended to be an army on their own, and this shows on the tabletop, too. They make EXCELLENT contributions to DA armies, but don't do as well solo. Therefore, to me, there are two broad categories of DA: Battle Company armies and Deathwing armies. Ravenwing agument both, although they seem, in my mind, to improve a deathwing army more than a battle company army. The speed, telehomers, and firepower that they bring to the table are just more direly needed there. In any case, in terms of what ravenwing units to use...I'd recommend squadrons of four bikes as the most cost-effective choice. Two meltagunners and a naked (except for maybe meltabombs) sergeant, plus a multimelta attack bike. That gives you two separate fairly cheap and FAST tank hunting elements with a scout move and skilled rider. The other ravenwing choice that can't fail is a typhoon...they're awesome choices in any marine army. The tradeoff for DA is that they're cheaper, but limited to one per squadron.

 

Personally, I play my DA two ways...either Deathwing with ravenwing support (four bikes as described above and two typhoons), or 5th company (plain old power armor) with a heavy bias towards infantry.

 

One nice thing about DA that other marine chapters used to have but now lack (that may be GW's way of setting us apart in terms of the tactical/strategic genius?) is that our captains provide table-wide LD10 and our psychic hoods (only Ezekiel's is LD10, unfortunately) are also table-wide. I think this represents DA planners having anticipated enemy courses of action and briefed their brothers accordingly. After all, enemy action, however effective, that you've already anticipated...well, it's only half as scary.

 

One more thing that sets us apart is our scouts. Unfortunately, they struggle against stiff competition (dreddies and termies, primarily) for elites slots...but their statlines are dramatically better than those of other chapters (who get punier scouts, but as troops)...but with the ability to outflank...you can get 16 S4 WS4 attacks out of nowhere, and the enemy dares not put most vehicles within 12" of a short edge for fear of your krak grenades...I like to take them (at a naked 80 points) in DW armies, where they only compete against dreddies for space.

[drbro1228]

So I think im going to go with a dual wing army with a larger emphasis on Deathwing and using a squad or two of Ravenwing as support. These aspects of the DA really seem to set them apart from the other chapters(even though some can field similar armies now) and i want to get the full DA experience. Plus i think the models look awesome.

 

Unfortunately the expenses of real life will delay my army quite a bit, but as soon as i get my army going ill post them up here to get some feedback.

 

thanks again for all the help,

Drbro

[Brother Immolator]

Plus,despite our reputation we are a lot friendly with wondering souls that want to get into our ranks.

Fluffwise though.....

 

Asmadai grab him!!!!!