Sawtooth Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Besides the final boss 'fight,' which was a huge dissapointment for me, the actual ending of Space Marine left me feeling very conflicted. At the risk of sounding like a fluff puritan, I just didn't believe it would happen. Ultramarines, while being a shining exemplar of everything a Space Marine is arguably supposed to be, are still freakishly insular and xenophobic fanatics who trust their own battle brothers before any other Imperial citizen no matter how loyal and pious. I can accept that an Ultramarine could become suspicious of corruption in a brother, certainly, but I can't believe one would involve an outsider in Chapter business that way. If anything, I could see Leandros outside the chain of command to report his suspicions to the rest of the Chapter (guarding against moral and warp threats is the realm of Chaplains and Librarians, after all), or simply putting a bolt round through Captain Titus' head and submitting himself to the judgement of his brothers afterwards. Did anyone else feel this way? Am I being overly strict in my interpretation? I'm not usually overly obsessive about video games fluff irregularities, I mean I got through Fire Warrior without spitting blood about a lowly Tau doing all that stuff :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I've always assumed the Ultramarines have submitted to Imperial Authority. Also, Titus did it for the honor of his Chapter, and the Imperial Guard survivors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2874951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I didn't find it too off-putting. I found the Inquisitor's willingness to destroy an entire company of Marines and force of Imperial Guard quite accurate, as well. Perhaps Leandros should have shown a bit more emotion when the Inquisitor pulled that one out, as it included him.. but they're Marines. Emotion is a luxury when you battle Xenos and Chaos forces from year to year for a few centuries. edit: But think about it. You're a tactical marine on a planet with MAYBE a company of marines on it, and you suspect your Captain, who is in possession of a source of power that can create a Daemon Prince, of corruption. Are you going to wait until you get back Ultramar, hopping on the Strike Cruiser, spending possibly months in the warp, before you can take it to the authorities of your chapter? Or will you make use of the highest authority nearby, which happens to be a member of the Emperor's Holy Inquisition? Leandros didn't have the backing of the rest of his brothers, as is evidenced clearly by the Veteran Sergeant.. so he couldn't really pull a coup even if honor allowed it. And we saw how many rounds Titus can take as he trudges through the game... I doubt a single bolt shell is going to do the trick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2875040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 The ending left a strange sour taste in my mouth as well. The 'bossfight' aside, i think he was well in his right to report his findings to the inquisitor. the device basicly contained a deamonic entity and Titus was exposed to it twice and carried it around for the major part of the game. even isolating himself with it when he went on the jump pack ride. knowing what happend on the forge world and the fact that even a slight chance excists that he might be corrupted I can certainly see this happening. It was his duty to his chapter, if nothing more. Besides whatdo you think happend if they returned to the chapter itself? they ALL would be srutinized in the same way by the chaplains, librarians and their fellow brothers before they would be fully trusted again and allowed to battle alongside them :) chaos is serious business ok :sweat: That aside Titus not allowing the inquisitor to kill of his company and/or the guardsmen he fought so hard to protect sounds pretty likely as well. he knows he isent corrupt himself, so thats probably why he choose to go with the inquisitor as well :) besides there was already a possesed inquisitor (not tainted and not alive, matter of factly) in the game. Id find it very lazy if they made the second one evil as well :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2876771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawtooth Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 Hmm, fair enough. It was really Leandros' actions that were throwing me off, Titus and the Inquisitor acted exactly as I'd expect them to. Not that I didn't think Leandros was being rightfully suspicious through the game. I suppose I'm used to Marines being so very insular. Still, I can't imagine Leandros is going to be having fun when he gets back to Ultramar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2876778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 well like Titus says at the start he shouldnt hold on so much to the codex astartes. as its just a guideline. I see plenty of people in work and hear about people who work strictly by the books though. Even if their co-workers dont. It takes time to find a method/regime of how you work that your comfortable with. He obviously hasent found that for himself outside of the codex. Besides the majority of tactical marines will (imho) just be contend to follow orders and stay in their happy spot. He obviously hasent found that yet and it seems to me that hes a new addition to the company. He hasent adjusted yet, if you know what i mean. What i did find uncharacterfull is that Titus scolds him for 'failing' The only thing he did indeed fail in was standing by his brother when he was accused of beeing a heretic. but we all already summarized why he did as such. :) Im sure the chaplains will enjoy thinking of a way to punish him for that by the way :sweat: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2876783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tancred Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I was surprised by it but think it makes a great cliff hanger for another game, what will happens to Titus? As the inquisitor is Ordos Xenos I'm hoping Titus joins the death watch so there is opportunity to play against other species like Nids and Tau. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2877270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 It's a matter of the "here and now". Titus' surrender or resistance to Inquisitorial scrutiny was the make or break point for his own men and the humans on the world he had just saved. It was sort of important to clamp down on the variables there and then to make sure nothing corrupt slipped through the cracks. Had he resisted, everyone would be suspect and targeted. You can't wait until you get all the way back to Macragge and just hope you didn't leave any tainted humans or Marines behind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2877283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I rather liked the ending, it leaves a great opening for a second game. I'd personally love to see Titus in the next game as a Deathwatch Marine under the thumb of the Inquisitor. Anyway what's this about the Boss fight? I thought it was a rather cool way of doing something different. We already had the Warboss, a very traditional super tough, super nasty bad guy that was hard to kill. Plus the various mini-bosses of Nobs and the Daemon Armor Chaos Marines with Thunder Hammers to contend with and what, you want just more of the same? In a game already criticized for having too much of the same? B) I would have liked to have seen a little more of that in the game actually, would have made a cool opening with the jump pack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2877301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 The boss fight was a little underwhelming. If it lead to another fight it would have been cool but quite frankly it involved no skill whatsoever. As for the fluff aspect of the ending. I SUPPOSE there is a worry for corruption but I did find it hard to believe the Chapter's own resources couldn't have been used to investigate Titus. What I found most over the top was the Inquisitor's authority over a Space Marine Battle Company. I highly doubt the resources were available to defeat an entire Space Marine Company, since it was that Company which lead the victory on the planet. I find it even more implausible to think a single Inquisitor would challenge a 1st Founding Chapter, especially one with so much influence over other Chapters such as the Ultramarines. And for the record, Ultramarines do not submit to Imperial Authority readily, they play by their rules rigidly instead. If your authority falls within their own agenda, such as honour bound within the Deathwatch, then sure they will do as they're told. However, cross them or infringe upon their honour and you will find them just as difficult as any other angry Space Marines. The Chapter's Due has a great example of the reaction of the Chapter when the Inquisition is revealed to have infringed upon the Ultramarines' sovereignity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2877329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Do you remember the great cliff hanger and opening for another game in the first Dawn of War, Gabriel Angelos and Maledictum daemon? I'm not expecting the continuation of this story any time soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2877593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mad Balrog Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 I think Sawtooth is spot-on about the idea of how insular any given Chapter of Space Marines are. If there had be anyone else to go to, he should've gone to the command of the Ultramarines. Since Titus was the highest-ranking Ultramarine on the planet, however, and he was the one under suspicion, Leandros did the second best thing and went to the Inquisition, who I'm sure were already on their way to deal with the Drogan mess. I honestly suspected that the final Inquisitor was going to be Lord Sharpe, Drogan's mentor, not Lord Whateverhisnamewas. Halifax... Sasifras... whatever. The thing that really irked me was Titus' casual attitude about the Codex Astartes. These are the bloody Ultramarines we're talking about, here. Roboute Guilliman wrote the thing, and it's a friggin' holy text in that Chapter. Going against the dictates of the Codex is almost as bad as blaspheming against the Imperial Creed. I'm sure if Ultramarine Command had been there to witness this, they would have sided with Leandros. Even the smallest breach of the Codex is punishable by exile and penance crusade, as seen in the short story "Consequences" in the Legends of the Space Marines anthology. Frankly, Captain Titus is almost lucky to have put himself in the hands of the Inquisition - they will either clear him or condemn him of a connection to the Warp, which is pretty easy if you have a trained psyker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2884625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Bossfight: I thought that was pretty cool BUT I also thought it would lead to a more traditional fight. I think it's a wash because as was said before, the game is already criticized for monotonous gameplay, so the endfight was a breath of fresh air. Ending: Great ending for a sequel. I also agree that Leondras did what's to be expected when the highest ranking Marine on the mission is the one under suspicion. I thought it a bit odd that Titus was so cavalier about the Codex, for him being a UM captain. But that is probably GW trying to make UM more appealing to the UM haterz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2884724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mad Balrog Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 But that is probably GW trying to make UM more appealing to the UM haterz. You'll notice they've started migrating the color scheme of the Ultramarines from blue and white to blue and gold. People used to call the Ultramarines "smurfs", but I haven't heard that in a while. Coincidence? I think not! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 They were blue and yellow before. And you do hear "Smurfs" quite often. But that way lies death and off-topicness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I thought the ending was fine and didn't really have any problems with it (plus it's a great set up for a sequel as you want to see what happens to Titus and wherever he gets to see Leandros again). I do have issues with how Titus was treating Codex Astartes but it's a major point of the plot how he uses it as a set of guidelines while Leandros uses it to the letter. I also have issues with how casually the Imperial Guard seem to be around the Chaos invasion like it's something that happens quite often and I think it would have been more interesting to show the confusion of being attacked by Daemons and Traitor Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Snaeper Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Hmm, fair enough. It was really Leandros' actions that were throwing me off, Titus and the Inquisitor acted exactly as I'd expect them to. Not that I didn't think Leandros was being rightfully suspicious through the game. I suppose I'm used to Marines being so very insular. Still, I can't imagine Leandros is going to be having fun when he gets back to Ultramar. Then perhaps it is not Titus who is tainted by Chaos... I did enjoy the fact that Leandros basically convicted himself once the Inquisitor threatened all the men under Titus' command which included Leandros. The way I see it though is that Codices and other documentation about Space Marine lore is generally vague and told from the point of an Imperial Record Keeper. I wouldn't put it past the Imperium and Space Marine Chapters to brush aside the occasional deviation to their reputation. i.e. Captain Titus not following the Codex Astartes to the letter and Leandros questioning is Superior Brother. My only problem is... of all the people to take with you on a mission, why does Titus pick some fresh whiny novice who seems to take issue with everything he does? He also doesn't seem to listen to reason very well either! "I do not take this Warp resistance lightly Leandros, but now is not the time to concern ourselves with this. When the mission is completed, I will seek council to determine why I'm immune" or something to that effect yadda yadda. Instead he just goes "Traitor" and turns him over to the Inquisition. tl;dr Leandros is a dick and was thus easily corrupted by Chaos powers since he was in such close proximity to the device even though he didn't touch it. If anything Titus' immunity would make him a powerful weapon since he's so Warp resistant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 But that is probably GW trying to make UM more appealing to the UM haterz. You'll notice they've started migrating the color scheme of the Ultramarines from blue and white to blue and gold. People used to call the Ultramarines "smurfs", but I haven't heard that in a while. Coincidence? I think not! ;) What? Ultramarines colors: Primary - blue (armor) Secondary - white (tactical badges, Chapter symbol) Tertiary - gold (general trim, Aquila, iconography) Quaternary - red (default accent color - Purity Seal wax, capes, cingula, weapons) Quinary - black (weapon color) 1st Company - white(silver) 2nd Company - yellow(gold) 3rd Company - red 4th Company - green 5th Company - black 6th Company - orange 7th Company - purple 8th Company - blue 9th Company - grey 10th Company - white(nominally) Ultramarines of the 2nd Company, like Titus, Sidonus, and that other guy, will have a lot of gold simply because it's both the Chapter's tertiary color AND their Company's heraldic color. 1st Company Marines are covered in white. White helmets, white tactical markings, white badges, white shoulder trim, white togas... A 3rd Company Sergeant could be decked out in so much red that he barely looks like an Ultramarine. Red helmet, red shoulder trim, red cingulum, red weapons... 5th Company Marines can look strange in their black shoulder trim with black weapons. That's just how it works. The color scheme hasn't changed since 4th edition when the blue got a bit darker, 2nd Company yellow got switched to gold, and the majority of weapon casings favor black instead of red. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odsox Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Hm. I liked the ending cinematic (I even enjoyed the presence of the Blood Ravens, whom I normally reserve a mild contempt for) - but one thing threw me right off and had me cradling my chin and frowning at the screen, muttering, "Why are the Templars there? Why are the Templars there? Why are the Templars there?" At a guess, the team were too lazy to make a Deathwatch skin. The only annoying - no, scratch that - downright infuriating part of that boss fight for me was the fact that you have waves of progressively harder enemies, leading up to a climactic battle of epicness with an unholy Daemon Prince, and - QUICKTIME EVENT, GO! Fudge that. Fudge that right in the bunghole. As an execution manouvre, the quicktime event is acceptable. But as a Boss Fight? I was sickened. Sickened. Such an awesome game, ruined by the anyone-can-win button-mashing mechanic that spoils so many potentially brilliant games (Yes, God of War, I'm looking at you - sheepishly, but I'm definitely looking at you). ..../rantoff. Sorry. Od. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Hm. I liked the ending cinematic (I even enjoyed the presence of the Blood Ravens, whom I normally reserve a mild contempt for) - but one thing threw me right off and had me cradling my chin and frowning at the screen, muttering, "Why are the Templars there? Why are the Templars there? Why are the Templars there?" At a guess, the team were too lazy to make a Deathwatch skin. The only annoying - no, scratch that - downright infuriating part of that boss fight for me was the fact that you have waves of progressively harder enemies, leading up to a climactic battle of epicness with an unholy Daemon Prince, and - QUICKTIME EVENT, GO! Fudge that. Fudge that right in the bunghole. As an execution manouvre, the quicktime event is acceptable. But as a Boss Fight? I was sickened. Sickened. Such an awesome game, ruined by the anyone-can-win button-mashing mechanic that spoils so many potentially brilliant games (Yes, God of War, I'm looking at you - sheepishly, but I'm definitely looking at you). ..../rantoff. Sorry. Od. I'll agree about the battle with Nemeroth, but I disagree completely with the God Of War comment. God Of War basically invented the QTE and they're masters of it. It fits the gameplay and never feels like a cheap shortcut. Hell, gouging out Helios' eyes by pressing L3+R3 was pure brutal genius,,,,,I felt kinda wrong to do it :yes: I would've liked to actually FIGHT Nemeroth before and after his transformation and then finish him off in the QTE plummet off the spire. As for the Black Templar, I have a theory - Ultramarines are the stars of the Third Person Shooter "Space Marine" series. Blood Ravens are the stars of the RTS Dawn Of War series. Black Templar are looking like they'll be the stars of the MMORPG Dark Millennium game (unfortunately). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivepointedstar Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 The whole Titus stating to Leandros that the Codex was more as a guidelines, make me think of another series called Pirates of the Caribbean where Jack states that the Code is more of a guideline rather than a rule book. Then ending was great I never figured that Leandros even for his novice youth would go to the steps of throwing his captain under the bus if you will the same effin guy that saved the world, and (Leandros' stupid @$$) imperial guards. Only to walk like a rock star up the Valkyrie ramp throwing the codex in Leandros face. Was awesome. Can't wait til SM 2 comes out hopefully like said previous that he is taken into the DW and is now a Kill team leader. or wish list ... Terminator armored Titus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 The going-theories I keep hearing is that the Templar were chosen because: Astartes corruption is both an Astartes concern and an Inquisition concern. A high-ranking member of the Ultramarines (Captain of the 2nd company) might be indicative of a deeper problem, so they need Astartes support that must be sufficiently old and influential (so the honor of the Ultras is not besmirched) and capable (with the mettle to deal with an altercation, however unlikely). This narrows it down to one of the ten original legions/chapters, and since Ultras are the most honorable, the BTs are one of the pool to select from. Also consider that BTs are anti-psyker and refuse to use Librarians. Given that the Captain wanted to turn the device over to his own Librarians (before he destroyed it), and that the initial Inquisitor was a psyker that fell to a warp demon, the Black Templar may have seemed especially appropriate to the newcomer Inquisitor. The reasons may be much more mundane: possibly the BTs were the oldest chapter in range that could answer the call for assistance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Nah. The in-fluff reason is simple. They were just the forces in the area. Remember, everyone was responding as fast as they could to get to Graia. The Ultramarines got there first, and then right there at the end of the game everyone else started making planetfall. The Blood Ravens, Black Templar and an Inquisitor were just the first on the scene. Leandros being an idiot and telling an Inquisitor about Titus isn't going to make a whole extra Chapter of Space Marines spontaneously teleport to the planet that has otherwise been waiting and suffering while aid is en route. Speculation as to why the Black Templar and Blood Ravens show up should be focused on why Relic chose them, not what the fluff reason is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Interesting points. I'm still convinced the BT were there specifically because Titus was already under a lens (given his vague back story) but that's baseless speculation on my part. ;) I'm excited for a sequel; really, the opening for the sequel is really why I liked the ending at all. (Leandros needs his face punched in. I'd like to be the one to do it...whether it means Titus is pure or corrupted is irrelevant to me in that regard.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkapostle222 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Personally I believe this is a better version of the ending: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238368-sothe-end-of-space-marines-campaign/#findComment-2885649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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