Blood Claws

[Grimtooth]

So I was having some grand fantasies tonight about what a representation of a Great Company would be when I started to think about Blood Claws.

 

As I think more and more about it, Blood Claws seem to be more and more a supernumerary force of any Great Company. They are used primarily as a shock troop, they sustain fairly high casualties, and the fluff that drives them seems to be directing them still being recruits and not really Wolves just yet. Grey Hunter seems to be the standard by which a Space Wolf is truly a Space Wolf. So what this has me thinking is that using the gaming driven mechanic of the force organization chart related to fluff, there is absolutely no dedicated spot for a high casualty, shock troop to fit into that mold. You have to not only account for casualties, but also for those pulled up into Grey Hunter packs.

 

Breaking down everything, to represent a Great Company I think the Troops section would be very much akin to something like the following:

 

Grey Hunters x80 (6 max packs, and 20the additional Grey Hunters set aside on special assignments/injured/recovery.)

Blood Claws x15-30

 

I don't see a Great Company having a dedicated FOC slot for Blood Claws, but instead are brought in for battles and missions as supernumeries in support of GH packs.

 

Thoughts?

[Quillen]

The way I had it broke down for my Company was 3 Grey hunter packs, and 1 Blood Claw pack, and one long Fang pack. As the Blood Claws were needed they were pulled into the Grey Hunters, and then as they got Long in the tooth they were moved to the Long Fangs. The blood Claws had an idon that was used on the Grey Hunters and the Long fangs had the icons of the GH packs and some the Blood Claw marks too. So they were a huge family that started in one spot and then advanced till Wolf Guard, when they got there own Markings. Thou I still put markings on the legs and such to show where they come from.

 

I had 3 of these in my Great Company. Then I started over. The Old models are now my Imperial Lions. And I have new models for my Space Wolves.

[hendrik]

i don't think there are any decided numbers on how many bloodclaws a great company can have. most likely the bloodclawpacks that get formed up will be asigned to the great company most in need of fresh bodies.

in wolfs honour berek thunderfists gets assigned 3 fresh bloodclaw packs in a single campaign by the old wolf. i'm not sure anymore if those bloodclaws become part of bereks great company afterwards or not though

[Grimtooth]

I am focusing more on the idea that Blood Claws are not inherently part of a Great Company roster. That the roster for all intents and purposes would consist of nothing but Grey Hunter packs, with the incoming Blood Claw packs assigned as support shock troops when mission or objectives dictated.

 

Looking at the fluff Blood Claws usually suffer higher then normal casualties due to their nature. That combined with the fact that they have are the direct replacements for Grey Hunters, I don't see Blood Claws having a static spot on a Great Company roster so to speak. If I were to break it down visually,

 

TROOPS:

 

Grey Hunter x10

Grey Hunter x10

Grey Hunter x10

Grey Hunter x10

Grey Hunter x10

Grey Hunter x10

 

Blood Claws x15

Blood Claws x15

Blood Claws x15

 

The Grey Hunters make up the full core of the Great Company while Blood Claws being trained and cycled into Grey Hunters would be would be more of a support element.

[Arez]

i don't think there are any decided numbers on how many bloodclaws a great company can have. most likely the bloodclawpacks that get formed up will be asigned to the great company most in need of fresh bodies.

in wolfs honour berek thunderfists gets assigned 3 fresh bloodclaw packs in a single campaign by the old wolf. i'm not sure anymore if those bloodclaws become part of bereks great company afterwards or not though

Blood claws do get assigned to a great company because Ragnar and his pack are BC and they're part of Bereks company.And reply to hendrik If thats the book i think it is they do.unless its the last or second last book in the second omnibus

then they turn wulfen and are killed cause the go and do a berserk charge

 

[hendrik]

it's indeed wolf's honour i'm talking about. it's been a while since i read it so some details are a bit foggy :D

[Forté]

They sure do seem to be the 'fresh draft' packs. Let loose to cause as much damage as possible until they become more tempered and controlled. Looking at it that way though, I can't really see there being many full strength GH packs in a GC. Especially with the way the current codex describes the progression from Claw to Hunter to Fang / Scout.

 

Exact pack numbers would constantly vary depending on how good the recruits are and on casualties.

 

Saying that (if any of it makes any sense) the two of you are more knowledgeable than I in the way of the Wolves.

[MonSTeR]

I think that you're on to something here.

 

It all comes down to the 200 battle hardened warriors in Ragnar's company if you ask me. i like to think that SW Great Companies are organised around the Grey Hunters with the other units, be they swift claws or sky claws or blood claws being additional units so to speak.

[Karack Blackstone]

The way I see it, you're basically right, depending upon the Wolf Lords' total intent as to whether or not Blood Claw packs are counted.

 

I don't recall the book I read it in, however, there's a mention of battle-brothers, and then a secondary mention of recruits assigned to the Battle Company/ies in question.

 

What that tells me is that Blood Claws have not earned the right to call themselves full Battle Brothers yet, whereas a Grey Hunter has earned that right.

 

As far as the FOC goes, I suspect you're spot on. Enough Grey Hunters, support elements (Elite, FA, HS) and the leaders needed to win are assigned to a mission, including Blood Claws being rotated into the FOC force.

[Wulfebane]

I think FoC would also depend on the Company... and no, I'm not talking about a particular Wolf Lord's preference. Imagine the majority of a company went off on a campaign and come back with 2/3 the company destroyed/dead. Despite what might have been left behind at the Fang for that company, they would still likely be put on reserve/planetary defense until their numbers are re-built.

 

Since it wouldn't be re-built by other companies' Grey Hunters, it's more probable that the company is designated as the new "newbie dump" where all the recruits that survived the training to become Blood Claws get deposited.

 

Once the company has a suitable amount of troops (from a fresh infusion of Blood Claws), then they'd likely be put on low priority missions so the BCs can cut their teeth and gain enough experience to be inducted as Grey Hunters.

 

So all in all, IMO it depends on the Company's success rate and casualty circumstances on how much of the company is comprised of Hunters and Claws.

[Grimtooth]

I just can't picture Blood Claws having a static number at any given time to be accounted for in a Great Company. Their attrition rate eclipses every unit of the Space Wolves.

 

We know the progression of a Space Wolf. The original, "claw" does not remain as a unit. Casualties and promotions wittle the pack down at the "claw"does level. Once you have elevation to Grey Hunter, that packs is what then goes on to either be elevated to Wolf Guard, choosing the path of the Wolf Scout, or sticking with your fellow Grey Hunters into Long Fangdom.

 

So as I say, the core of any Great Company will be the Grey Hunter packs with Blood Claw packs fluctuating as losses are taken, members are promoted, and the influx of new recruits from the camps. As it stands, the vision of my company Troops will be:

 

Grey Hunter x10 with meltas

Grey Hunter x10 with meltas

Grey Hunter x10 with plasmas

Grey Hunter x10 with plasmas

Grey Hunter x10 with flamers

Grey Hunter x10 with flamers

 

Blood Claws x35

 

The Blood Claws outside the main Troop core serving as replenishment to the Grey Hunters and dedicated shock troops when the mission or objective dictates.

[Grimtooth]

I think FoC would also depend on the Company... and no, I'm not talking about a particular Wolf Lord's preference. Imagine the majority of a company went off on a campaign and come back with 2/3 the company destroyed/dead. Despite what might have been left behind at the Fang for that company, they would still likely be put on reserve/planetary defense until their numbers are re-built.

 

Since it wouldn't be re-built by other companies' Grey Hunters, it's more probable that the company is designated as the new "newbie dump" where all the recruits that survived the training to become Blood Claws get deposited.

 

Once the company has a suitable amount of troops (from a fresh infusion of Blood Claws), then they'd likely be put on low priority missions so the BCs can cut their teeth and gain enough experience to be inducted as Grey Hunters.

 

So all in all, IMO it depends on the Company's success rate and casualty circumstances on how much of the company is comprised of Hunters and Claws.

 

Well we do know that when a company is lost or severely damaged they are rebuilt. I think the wording used in the codex or one of the novels is, "raised up". Those bodies come from of course recruits, but also possibly from the HQ elements of other companies. There would be no dishonor if the Great Wolf were to select an exceptional wolf guard pack leader of one company to raise up a new company. In fact it would be a promotion to wolf lord of a company at the direction of the great wolf hmself.

 

Also, more then likely the new company would be sent along with an existing company to shadow as they cut their teeth. Great Company A consists of two GH packs that then let's two Blood Claw packs of Great Company B shadow them and partake in the primary mission. Happens all the time in modern military as a means of OJT (On the Jpb Training).

[-Volsung-]

Curious thought: Doesn't it vary from one company to another? Considering that Space Wolves aren't really ones for strict traditions, would it not be likely that some companies, instead of sticking to the progression of entire packs being promoted, recruit Blood Claws individually? Say one company might decide to recruit specific Blood Claws as is needed to replenish a certain pack, or perhaps another company might have the entire Blood Claw pack "hazed" until they become proper Grey Hunters?

 

Just a thought.

[Grimtooth]

Curious thought: Doesn't it vary from one company to another? Considering that Space Wolves aren't really ones for strict traditions, would it not be likely that some companies, instead of sticking to the progression of entire packs being promoted, recruit Blood Claws individually? Say one company might decide to recruit specific Blood Claws as is needed to replenish a certain pack, or perhaps another company might have the entire Blood Claw pack "hazed" until they become proper Grey Hunters?

 

Just a thought.

 

While strict adherence of anything associated with the Codex Astartes is apparent within the Space Wolves, pack mentality and pack structure remains the standard. When it is said, "as Russ intended", they mean exactly how things have been structured since Russ formed the Space Wolves in his view, long before and after the Codex Astartes was written.

 

So while any structure related to Codex Asartes does not exist, pack metality and structure dictate the Wolves rigid adherence to how Russ intedned.

[Blacksad]

yeah, but in the novels it's individual claws that get promoted to grey hunters, not the entire pack (Sven)

[Valerian]

yeah, but in the novels it's individual claws that get promoted to grey hunters, not the entire pack (Sven)

 

True, but the novels very often diverge from the established Studio background material (codices and WD articles). Every Studio source says packs stay together, with exceptions for those who are individually selected to become Wolf Scouts or Wolf Guard. Even then, they operate in packs, but with a new set of Brothers.

 

Valerian

[MonSTeR]

yeah, but in the novels it's individual claws that get promoted to grey hunters, not the entire pack (Sven)

 

True, but the novels very often diverge from the established Studio background material (codices and WD articles). Every Studio source says packs stay together, with exceptions for those who are individually selected to become Wolf Scouts or Wolf Guard. Even then, they operate in packs, but with a new set of Brothers.

 

Valerian

 

I'm sure that there was an article YEARS ago that says to the contrary. It basically said that as wolves move between packs you end up with all sorts of bonds and debts and friendships between different packs. I think this was probably late 1st edition WD fluff just before things went into 2nd edition...

[Schertenleib]

yeah, but in the novels it's individual claws that get promoted to grey hunters, not the entire pack (Sven)

 

True, but the novels very often diverge from the established Studio background material (codices and WD articles). Every Studio source says packs stay together, with exceptions for those who are individually selected to become Wolf Scouts or Wolf Guard. Even then, they operate in packs, but with a new set of Brothers.

 

Valerian

 

I'm sure that there was an article YEARS ago that says to the contrary. It basically said that as wolves move between packs you end up with all sorts of bonds and debts and friendships between different packs. I think this was probably late 1st edition WD fluff just before things went into 2nd edition...

 

I thought that was the Rune Priests....

[Valerian]

yeah, but in the novels it's individual claws that get promoted to grey hunters, not the entire pack (Sven)

 

True, but the novels very often diverge from the established Studio background material (codices and WD articles). Every Studio source says packs stay together, with exceptions for those who are individually selected to become Wolf Scouts or Wolf Guard. Even then, they operate in packs, but with a new set of Brothers.

 

Valerian

 

I'm sure that there was an article YEARS ago that says to the contrary. It basically said that as wolves move between packs you end up with all sorts of bonds and debts and friendships between different packs. I think this was probably late 1st edition WD fluff just before things went into 2nd edition...

 

WD156 and 157? Nope, they don't say anything about that.

[MonSTeR]

yeah, but in the novels it's individual claws that get promoted to grey hunters, not the entire pack (Sven)

 

True, but the novels very often diverge from the established Studio background material (codices and WD articles). Every Studio source says packs stay together, with exceptions for those who are individually selected to become Wolf Scouts or Wolf Guard. Even then, they operate in packs, but with a new set of Brothers.

 

Valerian

 

I'm sure that there was an article YEARS ago that says to the contrary. It basically said that as wolves move between packs you end up with all sorts of bonds and debts and friendships between different packs. I think this was probably late 1st edition WD fluff just before things went into 2nd edition...

 

WD156 and 157? Nope, they don't say anything about that.

 

It must be somewhere else then but I'm sure i've read it somewhere. But when you've been playing 40K since the day it was released in 1987, you're bound to forget where you saw a few things.

[MonSTeR]

yeah, but in the novels it's individual claws that get promoted to grey hunters, not the entire pack (Sven)

 

True, but the novels very often diverge from the established Studio background material (codices and WD articles). Every Studio source says packs stay together, with exceptions for those who are individually selected to become Wolf Scouts or Wolf Guard. Even then, they operate in packs, but with a new set of Brothers.

 

Valerian

 

I'm sure that there was an article YEARS ago that says to the contrary. It basically said that as wolves move between packs you end up with all sorts of bonds and debts and friendships between different packs. I think this was probably late 1st edition WD fluff just before things went into 2nd edition...

 

WD156 and 157? Nope, they don't say anything about that.

 

I went rummaging around and found the pasage I was thinking about, it's in 156 and says that life saving debts are built up between pack members that may take centuries to repay as pack members are promoted and reassigned to other duties. It also describes how webs of these relationships build within the company over time

 

It doesn't specify whether the promotion is to wolf guard ot to grey hunter/long fang or what the reassignments are, to land speeder crews, tank crews or whatever. this also correlates to individual pack members being assigned to skyclaw packs for example. I therefore think that things are a lot more fluid than many folks consider them to be. however we must also consider that a lot of the fluff is highly mutable and open to interpretation.

[Quillen]

Ok your making a mistake. You are thinking Blood Claws drop like flys. Which is not true. They are still marines, just inexperienced marines. And they do not throw them away. They use them where they can do the most good without doing the most harm.

 

Remember most casualties in a game are not dead. They are hurt or knocked out. So even if the blood claws lose half there numbers in a fight only 2 or 3 are dead. The rest just need medical attention and some time to heal.

 

Blood claws are added to the grey hunters and when they prove they are not thick headed glory seekers. Then can be premoted. Either solo as the stories of 2nd edtion and Lukas show or the whole pack can be raised to Grey Hunter.

 

It's common knoledge this is the way it works. So I don't get what your tring to do?

 

The FOC is a game mechanic not a fluff one. It's to keep someone from taking 6 GH packs and then 45 more grunts as Blood claws. Not for the story line or fluff.

 

So fluff wise you can say what ever you want. Like I said above. My GC has 9 GH packs and 3 Blood Claw packs and 3 Long Fang packs. Now when I play I can only use up to 6 troop choices to make it balanced.

 

Which was the point of the 200 battle hardened vets. Meaning there is 200 Grey Hunter/Long Fags/Wolf Gaurd in the Company. And that would mean noobies are not counted yet as they are not battle hardened and earned their spot in the Grey Hunters.

[Grimtooth]

If that was the case, we would have a huge influx of Blood Claws sitting around waiting to get promoted. Blood Claws do take an inordinate amount of casualties. Being a Blood Claw would almost be like an extension of the camps where they are now being tested in live fire exercises. It just so happens that said live fire exercises have poeple shooting back.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I'd like to read White Dwarfs 156 and 157.