Lord_Starscream Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I just was wondering if others kind of agree with me on this. I'm excited by the idea of a Legions book, which may or may not come out. But as a whole I think the biggest problem Chaos has developed is a simple one. Chaos is divided between 2 books, and soon, 3 books. Now some may argue of course that more Chaos books = better, but I'm kind of lost with the whole idea of it. I think the Daemons codex is extremely flawed, and to be honest, even though Chaos Space Marines are pretty rare in the 41rst Millennium seemingly now adays, Daemons are even more so. Does anyone think that Chaos should be brought all back under one banner? A thick, evil tome to encompass the power of the dark gods united, with sub-lists within it (properly balanced this time)? I just think that Chaos Space Marines without real Daemons feel hollow. And Chaos Daemons by themselves feel completely incomplete. There is a reason why all the external media for the game, aka, Space Marine, Dawn of War, even the Ultramarines movie, lump Daemons and Chaos Marines together. They seem inseparable in lore. To take one away from the other leaves neither complete. Do you guys agree? Do you guys think the division was a mistake? Or do you guys think I'm dead wrong? :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he_plays_guitar Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I think they should be separate, and here's why: Not all Chaos Space Marines would have any dealings with Daemons. Some "Chaos" marines are simply renegades or fallen marines that have never been in the eye of terror, never been mutated, never had any demon cohorts or dedicated themselves to any of the Chaos Gods. Sure, there are plenty who have, but I like the separation of the two. Plus, it makes it more of a fluffy army. A full army of Daemons who come into play from reserves is a very different game than a Chaos Space Marine army. Plus, you have the Soulgrinder and the Defiler, which are two very similar models but which belong in separate codexes. I also think that many of the Daemon HQ's would be too powerful backed up by Chaos Marines, not to mention the bonuses that Chaos Marines would get in certain situations...I think that while each codex needs help and could use some balancing, merging them is not the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I think they should be separate, and here's why: Not all Chaos Space Marines would have any dealings with Daemons. Some "Chaos" marines are simply renegades or fallen marines that have never been in the eye of terror, never been mutated, never had any demon cohorts or dedicated themselves to any of the Chaos Gods. Sure, there are plenty who have, but I like the separation of the two. Plus, it makes it more of a fluffy army. A full army of Daemons who come into play from reserves is a very different game than a Chaos Space Marine army. Plus, you have the Soulgrinder and the Defiler, which are two very similar models but which belong in separate codexes. I also think that many of the Daemon HQ's would be too powerful backed up by Chaos Marines, not to mention the bonuses that Chaos Marines would get in certain situations...I think that while each codex needs help and could use some balancing, merging them is not the answer. That's true; there are many warbands and legions who have no truck with daemons or chaos per se (other than to use it for their own ends), but that's not a good argument for not providing the option for those that evidently do. It is entirely possible, has been demonstrated by numerous fan codicies and army lists, to incorporate all of the manifold forces of chaos (Traitor Legions, Renegades, Cultists and Daemons) into one all singing, all dancing tome. Whether this is accomplished via a single, mutable army list or various army lists that have a finite degree of interaction is incidental; it would bring Chaos forces back to what they have always been, what players generally seem to enjoy. For those who want an army list composed exclusively of embittered, cynical Traitor Marines or Renegades, the option would be present; for those who wish to mix and match with daemons, cultists etc, the option will be present, as it has always been before the current travesty of a codex. The decision should be left up to the individual player, rather than synthetically ripped out of their hands, especially considering that, traditionally, Chaos Space Marines have ALWAYS fought alongside God specific, distinct daemons. That's not to say there shouldn't be an army list representing daemon armies; there most certainly should, but the current effort is barely half a codex; it doesn't have any functional longevity, because as they've been implemented, daemon forces are one trick ponies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 wouldn't it be awesome if daemon armies could use cult troops as elites, or something? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Starscream Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 For Daemon armies I'd actually like to see Cultists, the maddened psychos who summon the daemons to the field. I hate the fluff for "how" daemon armies work in 40k. Having humans summon the daemons to the field would be much more interesting, even if not Chaos Space Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I agree with Lanparth. None of the books feels right without the other, and as I said in another thread, it's like splitting the IG codex into Codex: Infantry Regiments, and Codex: Armoured Companies. None of those would represent the myriad of formations what are the IG, even if both those examples are found in the lore. the same happened to Chaos, they got split into two different books, without good reason, and none of the books represent what people have in mind when they think "Chaos". And to he_plays_guitar. Your objections are.... quite strange. Lanparth seems to be talking about how the next chaos book should work. Not just using a stapler and mashing the two current books together. I mean, the Defiler and the Soulgrinder is an obvious example of overlap. One is just an upgrade to the other. Like, 'The Defiler may be upgraded to a Soulgrinder for +x pts, it then gets +1 AV to all sides and bla bla bla.' Also, especially the 3.5 book, despite it's flaws, enabled those who wanted no-daemons armies to play those without feeling they were disadvantaged. I mean, the dreaded IW-list never had any daemons. The WB Daemon-bomb list on the other hand used a lot of daemons, and none of those lists would be top-tier in todays meta (though they were powerful back in the days). Also, lists which were a bit more 'standard' could be used quite successfully too, so it's obvious that a combined book can be done. The only major fault with the 3.5 book was that you had to have Chaos Marines. If someone wanted humans and daemons, that was not possible. Or if someone wanted just daemons, it was not possible. But then again, it was called Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Anyway, I hope they recombine the Daemons and CSM. Much more fun to use, and them reducing CSM to just another 'Chapter', like the BA or SW totally sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Exactly as Totgeboren says. There's nothing stopping them combining the Daemons and Chaos books in ways that actually make sense, and using the "But some Chaos Marines don't use daemons" excuse is like saying "But some Ork Klans don't use Flash Gitz, so all Klans should get seperate books". A simple route around that problem. If your army background doesn't use something that the race as a whole can use, just don't take those units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I can solve this problem. Daemons not random derp. Give CSM an interesting dex with weaker (but marked) daemons. Also no random derp. Folding the two dexes back into one is another pointless rejig of armies. GW made daemons separate, the are independent, and deserve further support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I really dislike the Deamon codex... it feels like a Warhammer Fantasy rulebook 'translated' to 40k. I dont see why proper Deamons are not in Codex Chaos, as Lord_Caerolion says The people that use the argument "Some chaos marine have no dealings with Deamons" do not have to select the deamons in their lists! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Chaos is divided between 2 books, and soon, 3 books. Now some may argue of course that more Chaos books = better, but I'm kind of lost with the whole idea of it. The Imperium is divided into 8 books. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I play CSM and Daemons so I've got both armies but I wouldn't mind seeing both in the same dex-under one condition: that they don't take away any of the C:Daemons units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Personally I would like to see Chaos Split into 6 Books. Daemons in their own Book, One Marine + Daemon book for each God, Black Legion with Generic Daemons. This would allow for more characterful builds as opposed to the if you want to play Tzeentch you have marks and one troop option in the CSM codex, and you have abotu 1 choice for each slot in the Daemon book. The alternative to this would be to make a larger Chaos book with tons of options but include advantages to playing Mono God, as it is now the book becomes, take the strongest stuff, to heck with the fluff behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Chaos is divided between 2 books, and soon, 3 books. Now some may argue of course that more Chaos books = better, but I'm kind of lost with the whole idea of it. The Imperium is divided into 8 books. :D More books is better, for the simple fact that more casual/less well off players can pick up only what they need, rather than a massive sum for a single, massive, tome. For myself, a single tome would be great - I'm a purebreed background whore - but I can see the drawbacks for a lot of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I can solve this problem. Daemons not random derp. Give CSM an interesting dex with weaker (but marked) daemons. Also no random derp. Well, the first problem you'll have is all the non-chaos players will go back to demanding random daemons and random possessed for the CSM armies, like they forced us to have random possessed again. Cause aparrently Chaos is supposed to have random but generally useless stuff like that. Mind you, I never once heard a chaos player whine about not having random possessed; they were more complaining about the fact that possessed were so bloody expensive points-wise. Nobody understands that "chaos" doesn't necessarily mean "random stupidity." I really dislike the Deamon codex... it feels like a Warhammer Fantasy rulebook 'translated' to 40k. I dont see why proper Deamons are not in Codex Chaos, as Lord_Caerolion says The people that use the argument "Some chaos marine have no dealings with Deamons" do not have to select the deamons in their lists! This. I saw a lot of non-daemon lists during the 3.5 era; the Iron Warriors and Night Lords in particular had no daemons and their lists were rock solid. In fact, the IW was arguably the most popular list because it got looted vindicators and basilisks, and relied more on pie plating the enemy than anything else. What happened was there were a few specialized lists like Chaoswing and Daemonbomb that used them too well, but those were the exception and not the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Just give me a codex where i can use Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, and Cultists/Renegade Guardsmen and I will be a happy camper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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