Queries on grenades

[Coopervisor]

Couple of questions appeared last night during a game, both relating to grenades.

 

First off. If I multi charge 2 units, one of which has defensive (blight) grenades, the other doesn't. Does my whole unit suffer the penalty for charging blight grenades, or do only the ones attacking that unit suffer the penalty?

 

Secondly. If I'm in cover and charged by a unit which has no grenades, but includes a character who has assault grenades, does the whole unit benefit from having the grenades, or just the character gets to ignore the penalty?

[Vulkan454]

For the second question, only the character that has grenades benefits from them, sorry I can't hep with the 1st question

 

Vulkan

[breng77]

1.) I believe that you suffer the effects for all models involved in the combat.

2.) The character goes at Initiative, but the rest of the squad goes at I1. (the exception to this is for Dark Eldar with Grenade launchers)

[Dan VK]

I am woefully uncaffeinated at the moment, so if I miss something vital I apologize. -_-

 

“Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault Bonus attacks (see opposite).” BRB page 36

 

“As usual the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models.” BRB page 34

 

When a unit assaults, after the assault move for the closest model is made, other models in the unit may assault any enemy model in range. If the enemy model is part of a unit equipped with defensive grenades, the assaulting model does not gain an Assault Bonus attack. In other words, I could not find anything stating that units assault units, only that models assault other models when their unit is declared to be assaulting, and defensive grenades benefit all models in an assaulted unit, therefore "only the ones attacking that unit suffer the penalty"

[thade]

Interesting, Dan. I'm not sure that I disagree...but devil's advocate is more educational, so here I go.

 

The defensive grenade does specify that the unit is effective. I am still convinced that the only part of an assault where models are considered separate is for attack allocation (even in light of our other discussion) as it (and by extension, this take as a whole) results in a simpler scenario. Typically they go for simple, so where things seem ambiguous it's the safe route.

 

Also, I'm not clear on whether one model with grenades is sufficient for the unit to benefit; I swear I saw that in an FAQ (that a single model in a unit is sufficient), but it again comes down to whether - for example - an IC with frag grenades extends that benefit to an attached unit that does not have them (for example, some types of henchmen alongside a Grand Master in the GK dex).

 

EDIT: Clarification.

[dswanick]

Interesting, Dan. I'm not sure that I disagree...but devil's advocate is more educational, so here I go.

 

The defensive grenade does specify that the unit is effective. I am still convinced that the only part of an assault where models are considered separate is for attack allocation (even in light of our other discussion) as it (and by extension, this take as a whole) results in a simpler scenario. Typically they go for simple, so where things seem ambiguous it's the safe route.

 

Also, I'm not clear on whether one model with grenades is sufficient for the unit to benefit; I swear I saw that in an FAQ, but it again comes down to whether - for example - an IC with frag grenades extends that benefit to an attached unit that does not have them (for example, some types of henchmen alongside a Grand Master in the GK dex).

And, see thade, I'm the exact opposite of you - it boggles my mind that an IC with Frag grenades doesn't boost his whole squad back up to initiative against a charged unit in cover. Realistically (and yes, I know the error of looking at a wargame this way :) )if a unit is forced to duck behind their cover when the IC tosses in a frag grenade then the unit charging with him would benefit from this. The enemy unit can't both be defending the cover from the unit while ducking behind it due to the ICs frag.

[thade]

Actually, dwsanick, on that I do agree with you. :) I (attempted) to add clarification to my previous post.

 

Again, it comes down to whether Dan's hypothesis is correct (that the IC is strictly not part of the unit for the entire assault phase save the results calculation and thus his grenades/abilities do not confer) or if mine is correct (that the IC's abilities do confer).

 

If an IC has Fearless, or Litanies, or a psychic power that affects his Unit, the unit he's attached to does benefit from these things; however, all examples of these I can find (such as the ones I listed here) each specifically state that they confer to the unit, e.g. Litanies and psychic powers like Hammerhand and Unleashed Rage each have phrases of the form "The [iC] and the unit he is attached to [benefit]."

 

Ambiguity rules the day here. Do these serve as precedents for my (assumed) stance, or for Dan's? (It's not really Dan's, but it's the side he falls on here; I don't mean to pick on him.) Grenades do specify "unit", but they are not part of the IC rules nor are they as specific for that matter as Litanies, Psychic powers, etc. ICs are able to be singled out in melee and are for much of it considered separate...but for how much?

 

This is a pickle. I'm not sure which is really correct.

 

EDIT: Mismatched parens.

[Dan VK]

(It's not really Dan's, but it's the side he falls on here; I don't mean to pick on him.)

B)

 

:lol:

[dswanick]

Actually, dwsanick, on that I do agree with you. B) I (attempted) to add clarification to my previous post.

 

Again, it comes down to whether Dan's hypothesis is correct (that the IC is strictly not part of the unit for the entire assault phase save the results calculation and thus his grenades/abilities do not confer) or if mine is correct (that the IC's abilities do confer).

 

If an IC has Fearless, or Litanies, or a psychic power that affects his Unit, the unit he's attached to does benefit from these things; however, all examples of these I can find (such as the ones I listed here) each specifically state that they confer to the unit, e.g. Litanies and psychic powers like Hammerhand and Unleashed Rage each have phrases of the form "The [iC] and the unit he is attached to [benefit]."

 

Ambiguity rules the day here. Do these serve as precedents for my (assumed) stance, or for Dan's? (It's not really Dan's, but it's the side he falls on here; I don't mean to pick on him.) Grenades do specify "unit", but they are not part of the IC rules nor are they as specific for that matter as Litanies, Psychic powers, etc. ICs are able to be singled out in melee and are for much of it considered separate...but for how much?

 

This is a pickle. I'm not sure which is really correct.

 

EDIT: Mismatched parens.

Meh, I don't think the rules are ambiguous, just poorly crafted. Dan (et al.) has the right of it, At least as far as assault and defensive grenades:

Assault Grenades

Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal.

Defensive Grenades

Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault Bonus attacks (see opposite).

[thade]

If the word "models" is used that certainly clears things up. B) I coulda sworn I saw "unit(s)". Well...there it is then.

[Coopervisor]

Thanks for the advice folks. We played it that the defensive grenades only affected the models assault them directly (not the other models in the unit assaulting a different enemy) and that only the IC benefited from having the assault grenades. Both were in my favour, but I always feel better checking up afterwards and seeing if we did it right. The rule book itself doesn't state clearly enough either way, so was down to checking the words "models" against "units" as you picked up on.

[rusty1109]

Sorry to hijack, but I have another grenade question and it seems silly to start a second thread!

 

Can models with krak grenades use them at all times, IE not just against vehicles but against anything they happen to be in CC against?

 

I played a guy recently who said you could, there was a MC charging my tactical squad at the time so I didn't argue!, but was he right?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Sorry to hijack, but I have another grenade question and it seems silly to start a second thread!

 

Can models with krak grenades use them at all times, IE not just against vehicles but against anything they happen to be in CC against?

 

I played a guy recently who said you could, there was a MC charging my tactical squad at the time so I didn't argue!, but was he right?

he was wrong, by fluff CC use of grenades involves straping them to the places they will cause the most harm, non vehicles are simply too mobile to do that succesfully to. By Raw, grenades provide a special CC atack against vehicles, they simply do no such thing against anything else

[thade]

What Frosty said.

[Isiah]

Indeed. Your opponent needs to read pages 36 and 63 of the BRB to see how and when they can be used.