Who would win in a fight?

[greatcrusade08]

So far I had taken karden00's posts as pure sarcasm. Perhaps I misjudged. :RTBBB:

 

that makes two of us :P

[Roesor]

Wolves were designed to be Marine Killers yeah? o.O That's what my space wolf pal says anyway >_>

[Billuriye]

Wolves were designed to be Marine Killers yeah? o.O That's what my space wolf pal says anyway >_>

 

That's what the SW tell themselves. Admittedly, Battle of the Fang reinforces the idea and kinda makes it canon since the Helix is monstrous even for space marine standards and makes you think that it is designed for a specific purpose.

[Walter Payton]

Lucion:

 

Actually, I meant that people will base their judgements on the basis of chapter loyalty/dislike rather than a standard. It was intended to parody various posters on this thread. That's why I gave an obviously spurious basis for my obviously spurious opinion. Apologies if it went over your head, I'll use an emoticon next time.

 

Considering it's an exact statement more than a few Ultrasmurfs players would try to push as the total truth, with no Primarch being able to best Guilliman in any area, it hardly sounded like a parody. You wouldn't have had to change a thing to make it a serious comment by another member.

 

The first part, yeah, but I imagine even the most partisan and arrogant Ultramarines player would find a better justification than "I am an Ultramarines player," - especially when there is such a rich seam of pro-Ultras hyperbole from Ward et al. But no harm done, eh?

 

I do have one question to make though, does anyone else think the fight between Horus and the Emperor would have ended differently had the Emperor not been holding back?

 

In Collected Visions the account of the fight basically has the Emperor insta-kill Horus the moment he realises what is happening, so I would guess so.

 

---------------------

 

karden00

 

Okay here is the bottom line, as I see it anyway. Guilliman, more than any other Primarch, knew how to win.

 

Great generalship is not the same as actual skill at violence; the Duke of Wellington, one of Britain's most successful military commanders, only had to use his sword to defend himself once, at the Battle of Assaye.

 

The bottom line as I see it, is this:

 

They're all about exactly the same, depending on circumstances.

 

This. In some circumstances, Angron or Russ would get their arses handed to them by Guilliman, just as he would get his arse to handed to him by either of them in others. To make an argument that one is better than the rest in all or most cases is silly.

 

Not only did he win more worlds during hte Crusade than any other, he won them well. He ran around the galaxy, beating xenos and anyone else to snot, and then set up a model world/system of the Imperium. What all this means is that he was the guy who wouldn't box a boxer, he would wrestle him; he wouldn't duel a duelist, he would shoot him. Efficiency.

 

As AD-B said, we can attach any number of conditions in terms of armaments, situations etc. And other primarchs were great tacticians; Dorn, Horus etc. Appreciate the difference between strategy (i.e building model worlds, efficient logistics, Guilliman's skills as an administrator) and one-on-one brawls, where no amount of efficient generalship will make a difference.

 

So some of you want to believe that in a fight, Angron or Russ or god help me the Lion would out duel/out fight/out rage Guilliman, fine.

 

Russ and Angron probably would. The Lion and Guilliman would probably fight each other to a standstill. Again, depends on circumstances.

 

If all our Primarchs were in the UFC octagon and they had to go at it by tooth and nail, who knows who would win?

 

Probably a big brute like Angron or Russ. Again, that's a certain set of circumstances, the same way that if, say, they were all put into the game zone in The Running Man, then Corax or Night Haunter would probably win.

 

Back in the day, anything canonical read that in all areas, Horus was the greatest, so I would think that he would get it done at the end of the day. But since we dont seem to be counting him on anything here,

 

Perhaps we should.

 

He is never talked about as a savage beast in hand to hand, that is true. Did he know what he was doing? Absolutely. Like someone previously said, he was raised in what was probably one of the toughest military barracks in the galaxy. Angron would get upset, start hittin his crack, go nuts, and Guilliman would recognize him as someone to avoid in up-close fighting, so he would Indiana Jones him from 20 feet away. Analyzing a situation and recognizing the best way to overcome it is something I think its pretty hard for anyone here to deny.

 

Guilliman isn't the only primarch that thinks. All the others can do this to a greater or lesser degree, and that would tell in a fight. Leman Russ (for example) might not be able to recite the seven times table as quickly as Guilliman, but that doesn't mean he has no analytical intelligence or cunning. Guilliman might have been a better strategist and tactician than many of them, but we have no way of knowing that his mind would have given him an edge sufficient to beat the brutality of Angron, the skill of Horus or Sanguinius or the wolfish trickery of Russ. I also doubt Angron (for instance) would let Guilliman get 20 feet away. Again, it depends on circumstances.

 

If someone possessing the mind and mental abilities of a Primarch can meticulously plan a campaign, combat on a large scale, I dont see why the person best at that could not turn that same talent towards a one on one situation

 

Because the two are not the same thing at all.

 

Guilliman has two possibles in primarch-to-primarch fights; that's a good record, but he isn't a combat monster though, he's a general, first and foremost.

[Tezzy]

Glad people are enjoying the thread, I knew it would get some interesting debate (arguments?) going!

 

Just going to point out here (since I am a new member) that I'm not the kind of guy to see everything through Space Wolf spectacles. I'm not a collector any more but I am an avid fan of the fiction and though I do love the Wolves since they brought me to the 40K/30K world, I love plenty of other Legions and chapters too.

 

Thousand Sons, Emperors Children, World Eaters, White Scars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels... I love plenty of the Astartes Legions so I'm not another SW fanboy!

 

And on the point of Roboute... to suggest he wasn't a mountain of sheer Imperial power is madness, you don't get to where he got without being a boss.

[Brother Ambroz]

Each had their own strengths and weaknesses. I suppose if you want to know which would win (Guilliman or the Lion) then you'd have to specify how the duel would start etc.

[Eerie]

Some people here imagine gladiatorial hand-to-hand duels (or UFC octagon, as karden00 put it) whereas others here try to see the whole picture, including tactical mastery, pre-fight planning, choice of weapons, even having their legions at their side etc. Very different perceptions. Maybe we should first clarify which one is the more correct one in regard to the original question?

 

My nonsensical two cents: We have 18 super-post-human demi gods of war and can that question even be answered? Would an answer be of any value? Individual combat prowess is but one of the aspects that make a primarch a primarch. Russ and Angron are said to be very good in close combat, but does that mean that Guilliman or Vulkan or Corax were necessarily worse? Maybe they just didn't show it as often, or their close combat prowess was outshone by their tactical prowess or another character trait? I mean, would it be mind-shatteringly wrong if we read in a future HH novel how Angron gets his backside handed to him by Guilliman in a fair fight? Just because Angron is all about cleaving asunder other peoples' bodies doesn't necessarily mean he is the very best within this realm. Corax or Dorn or any other primarch could as well go rampage on any battlefield and cleave asunder whomever they met, they just didn't do. If they did, they could have outperformed Angron by a mile. Or maybe not, who knows?

 

We have Russ beat Magnus in a duel man-to-man in A Thousand Sons, but yet we don't know if it may not have been Magnus' very plan to have his physical body destroyed there and Russ was just the willing tool to do the job. Under different circumstances, maybe it would have ended differently. Or maybe not. As I said, my two cents to this discussion are somewhat pointless. Please forgive me.

[Artein]

Wolves were designed to be Marine Killers yeah? o.O That's what my space wolf pal says anyway >_>

True, but was Russ designed to be Primarch Killer? I'm not so sure.

[Johnnyb79]

Really enjoyed reading the past 5 pages of this and agree with a lot of comments made, particularly the circumstances of each fight, so hows about saying the conditions of the fight aswell?

for example who would win if Angron an' his pals decided to launch an assault on a wolf held planet?

Its ok to say guilliman could come up with a tactic to defeat each primarch if he had the time but if corax dropped down behind him (?favoured methored for the haunter?) while he was having his afternoon stroll and rammed his blade through his neck then every tactic guilliman had for corax was for nothing! In fact corax would probably do that to every primarch, does that make him hardest of all?? lol

 

On a side note, I'm a Templar and so dont really have a biased view due to Sigismund not doing bugger all yet!!

[Codicier Lucion]

to be fair Lucion, i understand your frustration at several pro ultra comments, but i find your own viewpoints equally as offensive and ask that you tone down the hate a bit..

 

Considering the apparent hate of other members the idea that any Imperial force save for the Ultrasmurfs is remotely competent and comments preaching about how Guilliman would kill anything with no effort, I see no reason to stop arguing against their bias.

 

that sounds like an opinion formed by anti ultra bias..

 

Guilliman was good at strategy, he was good at planning and writing doctrines to follow, others were good at killing. If it came to a one on one duel the chances are that Primarchs better famed for actually murdering their enemies would kill him.

 

theres no evidence guillman absordbed other legions, infact its stated in many sources his legion size is due to efficiency in battle and ultrmar being a utopia with a high rate of recrutiment.

 

Fine, if we're going to ignore that idea, he was good at making large numbers of marines. He was either good at creating quantity over quality when it came to troops or being good at claiming planets as recruitment worlds. It does not mean he is innately superior and does not mean that he would slaughter any opponent as half the Ultrasmurfs fans in this thread seem to think.

 

Guilliman is not the most martial primarch granted, but hes not the weakest as your statement suggests, the fact he has potentially two primarch scalps to his name is interesting too.

 

One of which killed him and lives to this day, the other might have simply been a space marine in disguise. The latter campaign was hardly a victory considering Guilliman had to forsake his own ideas of war and embrace the methods of Alpharius, proving his enemy was right, and was driven off world by the Alpha Legion with heavy casualties.

 

Guilliman and the ultramarines are like the greeks/spartans, they fought extremely well as a cohesuve force, but Guilliman like lenoides or any other greek king, was a very capable warrior, trained in military academies from a young age

 

None of which relates to this as we’re talking about single combat, not conflict in armies. Guilliman was a powerful warrior, yes, but he was easily outstripped by most other primarchs due to them being far more experienced at leading an army from the front than sitting at the back and writing rules for war.

He is not some invincible death machine and it’s time some people actually tried to accept that there were others better than him considering they apparently can’t just accept the idea that the primarchs were equal.

 

Okay here is the bottom line, as I see it anyway. Guilliman, more than any other Primarch, knew how to win.

 

No, he didn’t. If he did he wouldn’t have ended up dead. He also probably wouldn’t have ended up making so many mistakes and leaving his mark on the Imperium as the Emperor’s usurper and an administrator.

 

Not only did he win more worlds during hte Crusade than any other, he won them well.

 

No, no better than any other legion. The number of worlds he won during the great crusade can be put down to a number of things: having a bigger legion, being found earlier than a few of the other primarchs or simple propaganda. None of which suggest that he was somehow as superior as you seem to think he is.

People are very quick to bring up that one comment suggesting Corax was somehow responsible for most of Horus’ victories when trying to claim Guilliman is better, isn’t it only right to consider that he might be doing the same.

 

He ran around the galaxy, beating xenos and anyone else to snot, and then set up a model world/system of the Imperium.

 

No, no more than anyone else did. He also ended up creating his version of the Imperium by sitting at home and taking the Emperor’s place while other legions were actually doing their jobs and driving the traitors back into the Eye of Terror.

 

What all this means is that he was the guy who wouldn't box a boxer, he would wrestle him; he wouldn't duel a duelist, he would shoot him. Efficiency. Remember when Indiana Jones faced off with that goofy swordsman, and just shoots him after his fancy pants display? That, my friends, is Guilliman.

 

No, that’s Alpharius you’re describing there. Guilliman would have been someone sitting there watching and judging an enemy prior to him fighting them, judging how they fought, watching what weapons they use and constructing a plan of how best to beat them at their own game. He would choose the right weapon, think of how to go through the fight from start to finish and crush them in battle.

He would have fought with courage and honour, what you describe is him having not even the slightest concept of either.

 

There’s also a lot of problems with that statement considering you seem to think that Primarchs can be killed by just shooting them.

Lorgar was considered some of the weakest and he managed to walk off being disemboweled by lightning claws and being beaten senseless by Corax in five minutes. Magnus could go toe to toe with enemy Titans and emerge victorious, taking their attacks blow for blow. Manus’ skin withstood lava flows and was only knocked unconscious by a master crafted thunder hammer being struck against his bare head with incredible force. Corax could shrug off grenades and melta gun round at point blank range while only being mildly inconvenienced by full barrages of Predator destructor tanks. Curze survived being shot into the core of his planet and climbing out while still a child.

 

Do you honestly think a bolt pistol could instantly kill a demi-god of the Emperor capable of those things? He would have to turn up holding the hand held equivalent of volcano cannon to stand a chance of that working.

If he tried to do shoot Angron to instantly kill him, the Red Angel would have not even noticed being shot until long after he had ripped Guilliman in two.

 

So some of you want to believe that in a fight, Angron or Russ or god help me the Lion would out duel/out fight/out rage Guilliman, fine. If all our Primarchs were in the UFC octagon and they had to go at it by tooth and nail, who knows who would win? Back in the day, anything canonical read that in all areas, Horus was the greatest, so I would think that he would get it done at the end of the day.

 

That doesn’t quite work when you’ve already tried to portray Guilliman as being someone who can easily kill any primarch by turning up with a gun. And are so heavily bias you think he could trounce Khorne himself in combat.

 

But since we dont seem to be counting him on anything here,

 

Why?

 

He is never talked about as a savage beast in hand to hand, that is true. Did he know what he was doing? Absolutely. Like someone previously said, he was raised in what was probably one of the toughest military barracks in the galaxy.

 

And the others were raised on death worlds where everything was trying to kill them. I think growing up in a place where they were constantly fighting leviathans, space Vikings, killer psychic insects, elder raiders and even the environment itself might make them a bit tougher than the person who was sitting in a classroom hearing about how a knife can stab people.

 

Angron would get upset, start hittin his crack, go nuts, and Guilliman would recognize him as someone to avoid in up-close fighting, so he would Indiana Jones him from 20 feet away.

 

And fail miserably, for aforementioned reasons, then end up facing a very angry avatar of combat shoving a chain axe the size of a mini-van into his guts. You might also be interested to learn that other primarchs actually know how to use guns and Guilliman’s supposedly innate superiority doesn’t extend to him being the only one capable of wielding firearms.

 

Analyzing a situation and recognizing the best way to overcome it is something I think its pretty hard for anyone here to deny. If someone possessing the mind and mental abilities of a Primarch can meticulously plan a campaign, combat on a large scale, I dont see why the person best at that could not turn that same talent towards a one on one situation.

 

Fighting isn’t turn based combat you know. Just because someone can order about and organize several hundred thousand troops does not mean he can instantly calculate does not mean they can somehow calculate every single aspect of combat in slow motion.

If any of them could it would probably be the ones who are better noted to be more skilled fighters and are better known for their fighting prowess.

[greatcrusade08]

to be fair Lucion, i understand your frustration at several pro ultra comments, but i find your own viewpoints equally as offensive and ask that you tone down the hate a bit..

 

Considering the apparent hate of other members the idea that any Imperial force save for the Ultrasmurfs is remotely competent and comments preaching about how Guilliman would kill anything with no effort, I see no reason to stop arguing against their bias.

 

right, you need to step back a bit and gain some perspective, no-one here is hating the idea that guilliman might not the the bestest, there are one or two voices claiming he is the best, but most pro-ultras here acknowledge hes not the best at everything..

your being very anti-ultramarine in your responses to the point that your sometimes well reasoned arguments descend into nothing more than ultra-bashing.

 

oh and btw its ultramarines, not ultrasmurfs, the constant use of the latter is annoying and a little insulting tbh

 

Guilliman was good at strategy, he was good at planning and writing doctrines to follow, others were good at killing. If it came to a one on one duel the chances are that Primarchs better famed for actually murdering their enemies would kill him.

please tell me the difference between killing and murdering in regards to 40k lore.. isnt guilliman the head of a legion?, does he not kill his enemies too?

 

Fine, if we're going to ignore that idea, he was good at making large numbers of marines. He was either good at creating quantity over quality when it came to troops or being good at claiming planets as recruitment worlds. It does not mean he is innately superior and does not mean that he would slaughter any opponent as half the Ultrasmurfs fans in this thread seem to think.

 

firstly we will ignore that idea, as it is nonsensical, you cant use one sentence (by a heretic) to suggest the ultramarines absorbed other legions, it goes against many other sources.. its even stated in the previous setnences that the 'idea' is nothing more than inter legion hearsay and gossip.

secondly guilliman is superior... at recrutiment, logisitics and leaving behind utopian worlds :tu:

no-one here is suggesting his martial skills have anything to do with these abilities.

 

Guilliman is not the most martial primarch granted, but hes not the weakest as your statement suggests, the fact he has potentially two primarch scalps to his name is interesting too.

 

One of which killed him and lives to this day, the other might have simply been a space marine in disguise. The latter campaign was hardly a victory considering Guilliman had to forsake his own ideas of war and embrace the methods of Alpharius, proving his enemy was right, and was driven off world by the Alpha Legion with heavy casualties.

 

firstly guilliman isnt actually 'dead', hes close to it, but myth and legend suggests hes healing in stasis (make of that as you will), fact is he possibly could have banished Fulgrim, the fact that you cant kill a daemon primarch (only banish them) has no bearing on who can claim victory in that one on one fight.

also Guilliman had met alpharius before thier fight, i find it hard to believe that one primarch couldnt tell his own brother apart from a line trooper in martial combat.. especially given the fluff stating horus knew alpharius was a primarch without knowing who he really was (just by looking at and fighting with him).

Guilliman adpoted the spearhead tactic formed by Horus himself to take down alpharius.. a primarch whos own tactical skill is second to guilliman..

guilliman cut the head from the snake, but didnt count on the snake having a twin brother to rally the alphas to push the ultras back..

 

Guilliman and the ultramarines are like the greeks/spartans, they fought extremely well as a cohesuve force, but Guilliman like lenoides or any other greek king, was a very capable warrior, trained in military academies from a young age

 

None of which relates to this as we’re talking about single combat, not conflict in armies. Guilliman was a powerful warrior, yes, but he was easily outstripped by most other primarchs due to them being far more experienced at leading an army from the front than sitting at the back and writing rules for war.

He is not some invincible death machine and it’s time some people actually tried to accept that there were others better than him considering they apparently can’t just accept the idea that the primarchs were equal.

 

can you show me the passages that states Guilliman was a statesman and didnt lead his legion to war? becuase its not true, guilliman may be a superior tacticain, but the codex only took 7 years to write, Guilliman was about 300 years old at his time of death IIRC.. so what was he writing for those other 293 years?

i feel your making incorrect assessments and making up fluff to fit your biased opinions, thats really not cool

 

Okay here is the bottom line, as I see it anyway. Guilliman, more than any other Primarch, knew how to win.

 

No, he didn’t. If he did he wouldn’t have ended up dead. He also probably wouldn’t have ended up making so many mistakes and leaving his mark on the Imperium as the Emperor’s usurper and an administrator.

 

This shows your anti-ultra sentiment well, and its a load of crap to be frank.. Guilliman didnt usurp the emperor at all, he stepped in and saved the imperium from collapse when all the other surviving loyalist legions/primarches went mad and chased chaos into the EOT, he held the imperium together and created the codex to ensure another great schism could never happen, at which point he then stepped down from power and split his own power base..

yeah i see your point, obviously a usurper seeking to topple the emperor and sieze power for himself.... :mellow:

 

Not only did he win more worlds during hte Crusade than any other, he won them well.

 

No, no better than any other legion. The number of worlds he won during the great crusade can be put down to a number of things: having a bigger legion, being found earlier than a few of the other primarchs or simple propaganda. None of which suggest that he was somehow as superior as you seem to think he is.

 

its a matter of canon that the worlds won by the ultramarines were left in a better condition than the worlds liberated by other legions.. sure the number of worlds won can be attributed to legion size, but not the condition of the worlds pre-liberation.

again this has no bearing on his martial skill and only serves as some kind of guilliman sniping.. im not sure what purpose that serves tbh

 

He also ended up creating his version of the Imperium by sitting at home and taking the Emperor’s place while other legions were actually doing their jobs and driving the traitors back into the Eye of Terror.

firstly his utopian worlds was an idea formed before the heresy, ultramar was around before the legions wetn rogue, secondly the idea that he sat back and waited is again just supposition at this point, the upcoming ultramarine HH novels will flesh out all the aspects.. up until this point the ultramarines were always said to have been ordered out of the way by horus as he feared thier size and power.. yet again your using one unsubstantiated sentence spoken by a heretic to argue fact.. when infact its far from it.

 

Do you honestly think a bolt pistol could instantly kill a demi-god of the Emperor capable of those things? He would have to turn up holding the hand held equivalent of volcano cannon to stand a chance of that working.

If he tried to do shoot Angron to instantly kill him, the Red Angel would have not even noticed being shot until long after he had ripped Guilliman in two.

i agree that you couldnt kill a primarch with shooting, it would ultimately come down to close combat, i do dislike your comparison of angron to guilliman though.. in terms of a direct comparison its like deciding whos toughest in the schoolyard by comparing them to chuck norris.

lets get real here, angron would beat all other primarches in one on one combat, hes simply the best at it..

just becuase angron could beat guilliman doesnt mean all other primarches could.. IMO i rate guilliman about 5th-7th in the primarch rankings, behind angron, russ, horus and sunginius at the very least

 

He is never talked about as a savage beast in hand to hand

how much background material do we have on guilliman?

truth be told although the ultramarines are the most documented chapter, thier primarch is one of the least documented.. apparently (according to graham McNeill) the battle fo calth series of books will really flesh out his background, so we wont have to wait long

 

And the others were raised on death worlds where everything was trying to kill them. I think growing up in a place where they were constantly fighting leviathans, space Vikings, killer psychic insects, elder raiders and even the environment itself might make them a bit tougher than the person who was sitting in a classroom hearing about how a knife can stab people.

go watch 300, the principles of teaching thier recruits in the movie was very accurate to how it was, how many classrooms did the spartans have..

again your being obtuse with your arguments, it may not have been a death world per se, but the warriors made themselves face death reguarly

 

 

im sure you will respond with your won arguments, but ultimately most of what you have said here is based on innacurate interpretations of fluff/canon.

i respect your opinions and right to dislike the ultramarines/guilliman, but lets not start making up fluff in order to bash them.. thats rather poor showing dont you think?

[Legatus]

Guilliman was a powerful warrior, yes, but he was easily outstripped by most other primarchs due to them being far more experienced at leading an army from the front than sitting at the back and writing rules for war.

I can easily see why someone would attribute more combat prowess to some of the other Primarchs than to Guilliman. Leman Russ, Anrgon, Sanguinius and Horus come to mind. Perhaps Jaghatai Khan, Konrad Curze, Lion El'Jonson and Corax too. But what specific claims to martial prowess do Primarchs like Lorgar, Vulkan, Perturabo, Mortarion, Ferrus Manus, Alpharius or Rogal Dorn have? Ferrus Manus was described as strong, Mortarion as tough, but that does not necessarily mean they are deadly combatants. As I have not read the Horus Heresy novels, I may have missed some descriptions of those Primarchs' strengths. But I did not get the impression that they are all described as strong fighters where only Guilliman isn't.

 

 

Not only did he win more worlds during hte Crusade than any other, he won them well.

No, no better than any other legion. The number of worlds he won during the great crusade can be put down to a number of things: having a bigger legion, being found earlier than a few of the other primarchs or simple propaganda. None of which suggest that he was somehow as superior as you seem to think he is.

People can sometimes claim a lot of fame for their favourite faction, but there is actually a basis for claims as mentioned above. I know you may not really want to hear anything about it, but please don't take this as boasting, take it as information on a background source on the issue at hand.

 

In the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, GW had (uncharacteristically, perhaps) actually given an explanation for why the Ultramarines did so well during the Great Crusade.

 

"The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and its forward base relocated to Macragge. (...)

Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion.

Meanwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. (...) Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12)

 

Now, the result that "this way they could conquer worlds faster" is not exactly self explanatory. How would doing all those administrative things help conquer a world faster? I interprete this as the Ultramarines Legion never being slowed down due to logistical difficulties or other issues. If a Legion liberates a world, that world will then not neccessarily be able to fight off new invaders. And a Legion (or elements of their entourage) will suffer attrition and casualties, and will have to be supplied. Let's take, for example, the Dark Angels. (They did pretty well during the Great Crusade, and I do not want to diss them here, they serve merely as an example of the regular procedures.)

So, the Dark Angels Legion goes on crusading. They liberate one world, then a second one, then a third one. After the third world, they have suffered about 7% of Legion casualties, while losing 23% of their Imperial Army support. So Jonson decides to wait for reinforcements. It doesn't take long, and such delays are to be expected, but it takes a few days. Then the Dark Angels proceed with their crusading, liberating a fourth world, then a fifth. However, after having liberated the fifth world, they receive a distress signal. The second world they had just liberated is under attack by alien raiders. Not willing to give up a world they had just added to the Imperium, the Dark Angels hurry to the defense of that world.

 

During all that, the Ultramarines Legion can proceed to move on from each world they liberated to the next. Their supply time is significantly reduced, due to the carefully set up supply lines, and because the worlds they liberated have well established defenses they are not likely to be in need of further help. So the Ultramarines Legion can usually continue without delay, and they managed to liberate six worlds in the time the Dark Angels had only liberated five, due to fewer delays.

It is a fine example where logistiscs will have a significant effect in the long run. If you would only examine one single campaign of the Ultramarines and any other Legion, you might not see any significant difference. But after several months or even years of crusading, the logistical advantage will be quite noticeable.

 

I included those bits at the beginning and the end of the quote to highlight that the Ultramarines were already described as making such good progress before they actually grew much larger than the other Legions. So their success was not a result to simply having much more Marines than the other Legions, it was due to their logistical procedures.

[karden00]

Ahh Lucion, I can overlook your opinions, even your Ultra-Hate, but I cannot overlook your woefully inaccurate knowledge of established canon. Thankfully, people like Legatus and GreatCrusade8 are shooting holes in you already. Cheers, mates!

 

Courage and Honor

 

I do have to disagree with one thing though. Why couldn't a gun kill a primarch? Its obviously no fun to picture, there are only 18 of these boys, and even the ones that turned traitor in the end had some cool streaks to them, but these people were mortal. Playing 40k, we all know that CC is more potent than most shooting, but I have to think that a bolt detonating inside a Primarch's brain would put him down and out. And if anyone were to have the eye (or Ballistic Skill) to aim a shot that well, wouldn't that person be a primarch? Not exactly the stuff of epic storytelling I know, but I dont see at all why it couldnt happen.

 

Even more Courage and Honor

[Billuriye]

In Nemesis, the whole plan was a Vindicare killing Horus so they can be harmed. But with a bolter round it is impossible. Primarchs can withstand Titan breaking impacts with ease.

[reapercake]

And this is why I don't like to argue with SW players.

 

 

No it's because of the colossal arrogance some display.

 

 

If I anything I said upset you (or anybody) this was not my intention, I was only trying to return the arguments, and have a little fun as I took this to be a thread for fun and not to be taken seriously.

 

My sincerest apologies to you and anyone else my rambling has upset.

[Captain Idaho]

To be honest it's all speculation. Saying Guilliman is top tier is just as supported in background material as saying he is bottom tier. It's interpretation of events, rather than concrete facts. We don't know what really happened between Guilliman and Alpharius on Eskarador, and we don't know the reason Fulgrim disappeared.

 

The former is likely to be very messy and nothing like the Index Astartes article suggests, so it's best for all sides to disregard that moment of truth, whilst the latter could either be banishment or even an attempt by Chaos to wound Guilliman as happened to Horus in an attempt to corrup him. Hell this idea is so cool it even raises conisderation to Guilliman's wounds healing - now that would be a twist.

 

My own personal experience in fighting and combat, plus what I have researched etc, tells me if Guilliman has chosen as his prefered weapons a set of Gauntlets and the evidence of needed fighting style as shown in The Chapter's Due when using these weapons, it is likely Guilliman's temperment, aggression levels and abilities are much more martial than people might consider. It takes a certain kind of personal to be a brawler, and only a brawler would choose such a weapon when there are things more balanced or defensive.

 

I think Guilliman will surprise people with where he stands, as I can imagine this is the angle BL authors would take too.

[Walter Payton]

To be honest it's all speculation. Saying Guilliman is top tier is just as supported in background material as saying he is bottom tier. It's interpretation of events, rather than concrete facts. We don't know what really happened between Guilliman and Alpharius on Eskarador, and we don't know the reason Fulgrim disappeared.

 

The former is likely to be very messy and nothing like the Index Astartes article suggests, so it's best for all sides to disregard that moment of truth, whilst the latter could either be banishment or even an attempt by Chaos to wound Guilliman as happened to Horus in an attempt to corrup him. Hell this idea is so cool it even raises conisderation to Guilliman's wounds healing - now that would be a twist.

 

My own personal experience in fighting and combat, plus what I have researched etc, tells me if Guilliman has chosen as his prefered weapons a set of Gauntlets and the evidence of needed fighting style as shown in The Chapter's Due when using these weapons, it is likely Guilliman's temperment, aggression levels and abilities are much more martial than people might consider. It takes a certain kind of personal to be a brawler, and only a brawler would choose such a weapon when there are things more balanced or defensive.

 

I think Guilliman will surprise people with where he stands, as I can imagine this is the angle BL authors would take too.

 

You should write for GW.

 

At the end of the day, a GW author (and he should know) has said it depends on circumstances. Surely that is good enough for everyone?

[Codicier Lucion]

At the end of the day, a GW author (and he should know) has said it depends on circumstances. Surely that is good enough for everyone?

 

You'd think so, but apparently some members just can't accept that.

[Captain Idaho]

At the end of the day, a GW author (and he should know) has said it depends on circumstances. Surely that is good enough for everyone?

 

You'd think so, but apparently some members just can't accept that.

 

I hope you include yourself in that category, because your rants do little to show such impartiality.

[Codicier Lucion]

At the end of the day, a GW author (and he should know) has said it depends on circumstances. Surely that is good enough for everyone?

 

You'd think so, but apparently some members just can't accept that.

 

I hope you include yourself in that category, because your rants do little to show such impartiality.

 

Why? Because I have a problem with people making serious claims like this? "Angron vs Russ will end in both of them agreeing that they should both go learn at the foot of Guilliman. Why cant you guys see that?"

 

I've stated several times in this thread that the Primarchs are all equal in some measure or another and it should be left at that, except apparently other members think all Primarchs save for the one they like are so weak they can instantly be killed with a bolt round to the head and their legion is the only good one.

[Captain Idaho]

Nothing in 40K should be considered serious, so for you to take exception to "serious claims" about a fictional character's performance and abilities indicates to me you should take a break from the hobby and get out more.

 

Without trying to get myself censored or attack you (and in a calm and non-aggressive tone), who are you to take it upon yourself to put the world to rights about something so trivial?

 

When you consider that question carefully you will perhaps be able to take a step back and relax a little. Sure we all enjoy discussing these things, but I really get the impression you actually DON'T, from the vehnem and frustration in your writing. It really means so much to you and that can't be very healthy.

 

Again, I say this honestly and not aggressively. Take it as you will.

[greatcrusade08]

Lucion, its one thing to argue aginst those absurd claims, quite another to assert that guilliman is the primacrhes whipping boy.

youve misquoted every bit of fluff to back up your assertions that guilliman and the ultramarines are 'less than'.. to be frank what your doing is far more insulting and damaging that any over eager ultramarine fan saying his chapters the greatest

[JamesI]

And I think its time to let this thread take a vacation. Some posts are being looked at by the moderating staff for inappropriateness.