Death-Star Tactica

[Lifeguard]

Hello all,

 

I've just been introduced to the Warhammer 40K world by some friends. After having sat in on a couple of games and seen it played, I've taken an interest. So in the past few weeks, I've haunted some forums, including this one, to do some learning about the game in general. This forum strikes me as one of the best run and seems to consist of more intelligent discussion than arguments. This works out great, because after doing some homework, I think Space Marines are the army for me.

 

Here's how I came to that conclusion. Only one of the group of four actually plays an Imperial Army. His force of guardsmen is stacked against Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos Space Marines. Now the Imperial Guard doesn't wholly appeal to me, and I knew that I wanted to play something that none of the others were playing. When I got on the GW website, there seems to be a lot of Space Marine information. They have articles on just about everything. The models appeal to me, as does the background. So this is the way I'm going.

 

I've come to some various conclusions about what I want my army to look like. It doesn't need to be tournament-grade competitive, since the four guys I'll be spending most of my time playing with are a pretty relaxed group. It does, however, need to be based on an existing Space Marines chapter, not a DIY, since I think the stories behind the existing chapters are pretty interesting. And, being as most of the reading I've done talks about how few and far between the Space Marine units are, I'd like to build the entire army around a core group of heavy hitters. Everything seems to refer to them as "Death Star units".

 

Now, I imagine that on the tabletop, there are specific, tried-and-true methods to building an army around a small core of models. I'm still wrapping my head around the rules of the game, but it seems to me that when it comes to building an army, in addition to following the written rules(which seem to be easy to grasp), there are considerations made based on how different parts of an army work together.

 

In most things that I do, I am very aggressive and forward, and fairly all-or-nothing. For that reason, I see myself engaging in short-range combat and assault, at least more so than hanging back shooting. So I'd like to build an army around an aggressive, close-quarters oriented "Death Star". I'd like to base it around one of the following models:

 

Marneus Calgar(Ultramarines)

Captain Lysander(Imperial Fists)

Kayvaan Shrike(Raven Guard)

Azrael(Dark Angels)

Astorath(Blood Angels)

 

I've made these selections on appearances of the models more than rules on paper. When it comes to the rules, I find myself leaning toward Lysander, although I don't have a Codex for rules regarding Azrael or Grimaldus. So, I need some advice regarding building an army around a "Death Star", especially as it pertains to fighting horde armies like Orks and Tyranids, or tank-heavy Imperial Guard. Also, I'd like to know if any of the above models are better or worse for this kind of play.

 

The Meta-Game

 

My regular opponents, as I said before, play Tyranids, Orks, Chaos Space Marines, and Imperial Guard. I'd like a well-rounded army list that I could take to fight any of them. They always play on the table in my friend's basement, 6' x 4', with a third arranged like city outskirts, a small forking river, and lightly wooded terrain covering the rest. Games are generally played at between 1500 and 2000 points.

 

I'd like to stick to the thematics of the chapter reflecting my chosen character as much as possible, but I'm not set on that character until I've got an idea who the best selection would be.

 

Just a side question: Has anyone fielded a strictly Death Company army with no scoring units? Something that relies strictly on the concept of totally and completely annihilating the opponent? Is this even feasible, or does GW just have it on the website because it's different?

 

Anyway, I appreciate any advice anyone cares to offer.

[spartan249]

Well, we've got quite a wall of text incoming here.

 

There are a few routes you can take with a short range marine army, especially one involving a centerpiece assault unit.

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Codex: Space Marines

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In this codex, you're looking at a decent balance between shooting capability and assault capability, although the codex leans more towards the shooting side. With this in mind, an army you assemble from this codex will want to take advantage of this by creating a forceful fire base with cheap tanks/infantry, then shoving your centerpiece straight into the remains of the enemy. There are a few ways to take this, and hopefully, I'll cover everything.

 

The Centerpiece

 

First, we'll focus on the centerpiece itself. The first and most important part of this is the body of the centerpiece, or the unit you are going to use. Codex: Space Marines is rather limited in choices for this, as you have 2 units that can fulfill this role: Vanguard Veterans, and Assault Terminators. The main toss-up between the two is the offensive power vs the defensive power.

- Vanguard Veterans definitely bring more offensive potential to the table because of two things: Power armor (Allows more of them to occupy a transport), and number of attacks. However, they will be very susceptible to dying due to their 3+ armor save and lack of any invulnerable saves. If you are going to use Vanguard Veterans, you're going to have to try to limit your targets to ones that are visually isolated, either artificially via maneuvering your other vehicles around the target or naturally via terrain. This will help you keep your vets alive longer, so they can continue charging and killing targets.

- Assault Terminators bring slightly less offensive power in return for vastly superior survivability. They are one of the toughest units in the game due to their 2+ armor saves and a back up 3+ invulnerable save. This is counter-weighed by the fact that they are very limited in transport options and take up much more space, both game-wise and physically. However, point for point, you won't find a better deal then these guys for assault in this codex.

- Also, keep in mind that these two choices will have ramifications on what you can target with your centerpiece. If you decide to choose Vanguard Veterans, you are most likely not going to be hitting up super elite units with invulnerables and power weapons galore. Vanguard will most likely lose to that because of their inferior attack quality (unless you sink a LOT of points into them) and lack of protection from power weapons. They are much better suited for taking on rank-and-file infantry like guardsmen, gaunts, chaos marines (Not cult marines... watch out for those, especially berzerkers and noise marines) and emerging in a sea of blood. Assault Terminators, on the other hand, will be able to stand toe-to-toe with the best units out there, but will fall short against the rank and file because their high quality of attacks will be lost in the sea of bodies, and they will drown in armor saves very easily because of how few attacks they have.

 

Second, you need something to complement the body of the centerpiece. In the case of C:SM, this will be your HQ selection.

- Now, if you are going with Vets, I recommend you go with a chaplain (I like Cassius) in order to boost your offensive output even more. In a situation where you're rolling 30ish attacks that don't ignore armor saves, you really want every hit to count, as it's the weight of saves that is doing the work for you. While you can roll with Marneus or Lysander in a group like this, it won't help you as much offensively as it will defensively, as they can take the big shots for your Vets, but will only contribute a few extra attacks in the assault. Also, HQs like Kor'sarro Khan shine in a squad like this, as furious charge will make your opponent cringe when they receive a charge.

- If you're going with ATs, I recommend a big beatstick to go with them, as the chaplain's effects are diminished due to the lesser amount of attacks. Of course, this can change depending on how many you are taking, so it's up to you here.

 

Third, you want to have some way of transporting this unit of death and destruction. You've got a few options and consequences to consider here.

- For Vets, you have quite a few ways to close the distance. First up is Jump Packs. I highly suggest you avoid this option as it costs an insane amount of points and does nothing to protect them from shooting as you close in, meaning that you lose their effectiveness as you close in. While you can try at it, I have never seen Vets with packs succeed against me, and very rarely have seen them succeed in other matches. Second up is the humble Rhino. It's a cheap, inconspicuous box to transport your vets, and it'll get the job done, if a little clumsily. However, use of a Rhino precludes having a squad bigger then 10 and including terminator HQs like Lysander. Last up is the Land Raider, of any flavor. These are what I recommend as your transport, as it is the most convenient transport for them.

- For ATs, you have 2 options. First, you can stick em in a LR. This is the most common method, and it works well enough. Second, you can eschew the LR and go for Deep Strike. This is, needless to say, MUCH more risky, but if you succeed and get them spot on where you need them, you have yourself a group of anywhere between 5 to 12 Terminator badasses ready to tear stuff up and clear house. I am not kidding, these guys will soak an entire army's firepower quite handily, and sometimes multiple turns of an entire army's firepower, based on your luck, of course. Very risky, but the payoff can be very high.

- Now, on the subject of LRs, I have quite a bit to say about the 3 variants available.

1: The LR Phobos. This is the stock Land Raider with a TL Heavy Bolter and 2 TL Lascannons. This LR is the most tactically versatile of the 3, as it has a long engagement range via the Lascannons. With this LR, you have a lot of options available concerning playstyle, as you can hang back with it and play defensive, counter-assaulting incoming enemy forces, or you can simply barrel it down a flank, shooting potshots along the way. The drawbacks to this tank is the lack of anti-infantry capability and limited transport space, as you only have 12 slots, limiting Terminator squads to 6 models (5 if you include an HQ or two). I personally go with the LR phobos as my preferred LR because of the tactical versatility.

2: The LR Redeemer is primarily an Assault Transport with the capability to uproot troops holed up in cover. With this tank, there is no way but forward, and the extremely limited engagement range means you will most likely not fire more then once per game (You may not even be able to fire at all, given your luck!). However, it is slightly cheaper then the other LRs. I think you should only use this LR if you lack the ability to defeat cover any other way.

3: The LR Crusader is a hedgehog of guns and, while the LRC is similar to the LRR in that it's an Assault Transport, the range of engagement is much larger, which means you have a limited ability to kite with this tank when you need to (vs Orks, you're going to be kiting a lot). Also, the LRC is perfect for an AT based centerpiece, as it can carry up to 8 of them (7 with HQ), meaning much more hitting power on the charge.

 

The Rest of the Army

 

Once you've decided on a build for your super unit of destruction, you need to support it with the rest of your forces. This is where you can get flexible. This super unit is going to take up either one Elite slot or one Fast Attack slot and 1~2 HQ slots, so that leaves you quite a bit of room to expand.

 

First, for troops, you have Tactical Squads and Scout Squads as your choices. Now, a very large amount of the people out there, including the B&C, use Tactical Squads as their bread and butter unit. This is fine, and it can work, but you have to be weary about including too many tactical marines in your list. Too many marines will dilute your long range firepower and hamper you in the initial phases of the game, which is often where the game is decided. If you find Tactical Squads distasteful (like I do), I think you should go with Sniper Scouts, and lots of them. Why? Because Sniper Rifles have a long range, have the capability to hurt just about any target with a toughness, and when brought in numbers, has a fair chance of effecting damage on light armor. I think that isn't a very bad deal for the points you pay. If you end up taking the sniper route, I think you should have 30 snipers at the minimum, maybe even 40 to really bring the pain for a bargain price.

 

For Elites, you have quite a few options available to you. You have Regular Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Sternguard Veterans, and Techmarines open to you. How you outfit these units will depend slightly on what centerpiece you pick, but for the most part, Dreadnoughts bring a lot of bang for the buck. I think it isn't a bad idea to bring out two Dreadnoughts with two TL Autocannons and call it a day on the elites section with them. They're pretty cheap, and contribute quite a bit of long range Anti-infantry and Anti-light armor firepower.

 

For Heavy Support, what you take will depend heavily on what centerpiece you choose. If you chose Vanguard, you're going to want to source your anti-elite firepower here, as you're going to need it to cover targets the Vanguard are unable to engage. This means Predators with an Autocannon and two Lascannons, Vindicators, and whatever else that has low AP and high strength. If you're taking Assault Terminators, I suggest you take at least one dedicated anti-infantry weapon here, such as the Thunderfire Cannon or Whirlwind, to cover units that ATs will be weak against. Any other slots spent here should help you de-mechanize your opponents at range, as this is crucial to making your centerpiece work for you.

 

For Fast Attack, I think Land Speeders are the most economical and efficient unit to bring. These handle flank support with anti-heavy armor weaponry and anti-cover weapons for those situations where your long range firepower is being mitigated by cover. However, if you have the points to spare, a Bike Squad isn't a bad investment, as they can contribute some seriously mobile fire support.

 

In the end, you should have the capability to do 2 things with the rest of your army.

- The army should be able to throw out heavy fire support in the opening turns of the game in order to help you get your centerpiece into position.

- The army should have the mobility to reposition in order to continue engaging the enemy in the middle and late phases of the game (Remember that mobility has two facets: Range and Speed).

 

Here's an example army I'd make using those principles out of C:SM.

2000 pts "Imma firin mah Deathstar!"

HQ

Khan: 160 pts

Chaplain: Combi-Melta - 110 pts

Troops

Scout Squad: 10 Scouts, Rifles - 140 pts

Scout Squad: 10 Scouts, Rifles - 140 pts

Scout Squad: 10 Scouts, Rifles - 140 pts

Scout Squad: 10 Scouts, Rifles - 140 pts

Elites

Dreadnought: 2x TLAC - 125 pts

Dreadnought: 2x TLAC - 125 pts

Venerable Dreadnought: 165 pts

Heavy Support

Predator: LC Sponsons - 120 pts

Predator: LC Sponsons - 120 pts

Land Raider: Extra Armor - 265 pts

Fast Attack

Vanguard Squad: 10 Vets, 3 Pfists - 250 pts

 

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Other Codices

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This is not my area of expertise, as I have only experimented with the other marine books, so I'll let others chime in with more detailed advice. However, I will make a few general observations about the other books you showed interest in.

 

Black Templars: This book is much more close-combat oriented as a codex, meaning that, rather then having one close combat element barrel into the smoldering remains of the enemy, your entire army is closing in to a full strength enemy and duking it out. The one problem with the codex is the age, meaning that the point costs for some of the units are going to be a bit higher then the newer codices. However, the codex is still very potent when used correctly, and there are little tricks you can use with the 4th edition codex conventions in 5th edition 40k to give yourself an edge on the newer codices.

 

Blood Angels: This codex brings the lightning in the term lightning war, as a lot of things change for the better with the transition. In this codex, the vehicular element is significantly faster, boosting the mobility up quite a bit. This is especially useful with Predators, as they can now move 6" and fire all their weapons, a vast improvement over the C:SM counterpart. Also, Devastator Heavy Weapons are vastly cheaper in this codex, which means that Devastators finally have some appeal to them in the Heavy Support slot. Also with this codex, you can bet that the assault power in this codex is superior to C:SM because of the more readily available Furious Charge and the inclusion of Feel No Pain to increase survivability. The two main disadvantages in this codex are the reduced transport capacity of the Land Raider Phobos (10 models instead of 12) and the more expensive ATs. Otherwise, Blood Angels are a very solid army to play.

 

Dark Angels: This codex is.. interesting. If this codex is run in the same way as a C:SM army, it is inferior because of the higher point costs across the board. However, once you start delving into the unique aspects of the Dark Angels, you start pulling out some very powerful army configurations. If you do choose to go with Dark Angels, you can be pretty sure that Terminators will feature prominently, especially when they are taken as Troops via Belial, as will Land Speeders. So beware if you want a more conventional marine army. If you do, C:DA is not the codex to do it with.

 

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End wall of text

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Well, that was all my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. Hope it helps you out, and do post prototype lists in the correct sub-forum so we can take ganders at it.

 

Welcome to the B&C, by the way. Hope you enjoy your stay :cuss

[Mysticaria]

Read this: Using Uber units in competative environment, by Captain Idaho

 

This article is essentially what spurred me to start thinking about playing a deathstar... and the black reach terminators being so cheap at the time was what started me towards trying to make Tactical Terminators to work... and then when it worked and I learned a lot it eventually led to me writing the Tactica Terminator article.

 

So yeah, I think you can make deathstars work. Like anything else, there are a lot of factors that go into creating a deathstar army and playing it. In the right circumstances it can be good, and in the wrong circumstances it can be bad. I don't think you can just take a 700 point unit and expect to win... you still have to use all the tools the right way to put them in the right position.

 

EDIT: To address your question... in the article in my signature block I write a little about how Lysander pairs well with terminators to make a really strong deathstar. You might like something like that. I would recommend reading that article since I think it might help you decide if you like terminators are your deathstar or if you want to go another route.

 

-Myst

[spartan249]

Oh blimey, I forgot about Honor Guard. These guys are another possibility for a centerpiece, and are quite cheap for fulfilling that role as well. However, they are only available if you take a chapter master of some sort, so it's only feasible if you take Calgar as your HQ. If you do, though, they're basically Vanguard Vets on steroids, with a 2+ armor and all power weapons. With all the fixings, they come with a much heftier price tag, but bring much more capability to the anti-infantry POU then Vanguard.

 

I suppose Terminators are an alternative centerpiece to consider, especially when given an HQ like Lysander. While they do not sport the survivability of Thunder Hammer Assault Terminators, they bring the same offensive capability in close combat. They also have the ability to engage targets at range, which can come in handy against armies like Orks who are advancing constantly on you. It'll all come down to your playstyle, which leads me to believe you might avoid tactical terminators, at least based on what you've written.

[Lifeguard]

Hey again,

 

Thanks very much to spartan249 for that massive contribution. A lot of great stuff in there, good things to think about, and some excellent points on balancing an army around the centerpiece. I appreciate the time you invested to write that monster article.

 

And Mysticaria, I appreciate both those links, I have read both(I actually read your Terminator Tactica prior to joining, the Lysander + 10x Tac Terms kinda drew me into the idea of a Death Star unit). Captain Idaho's article gives some solid thinking about exactly what I'm trying to do, so I owe him some thanks as well.

 

So with the details of Codex: Space Marines given, I'd really like to hear from some others regarding the different codicies. Space Wolves, Black Templar, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels could all put a different kind of spin on this, I'm sure. The DA Deathwing idea is interesting, although I'm not entirely sure I trust my conversion skills to create a Belial. And the BA Death Company supported by Lemartes looks like it could be a heavy hitter as well.

 

I'll see about posting up a list in the near future under Codex Army List Reviews.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I actually don't think Honour Guard are a heftier price tag than the Vanguard when you consider that the only way you can genuinely run the Vanguard significantly cheaper are to run them barebones. If you give every Vanguard Vet a Power Sword, then suddenly they cost the exact same thing as an Honour Guard per model, and for the exact same price the HG gets a 2+ save, LD10, and a boltgun. Also, I think the chapter champion's rule (btw he's priced exactly the same as the stock vanguard sergeant) is far superior to Heroic Intervention, which is only really reliable in the Blood Angels codex. What Vanguard really have going for them is their flexibility and the fact that you don't need a chapter master to take them... but I think point for point the Honour Guard are actually cheaper than Vanguard (assuming you upgrade the Vanguard at all).

 

Also, if you're looking for the ultimate death star in today's game, check out the Grey Knights codex, Draigo and 10 Paladins including an apothecary are about as death star as you can get out of a Marine codex (though technically Grey Knights are with the Inquisition, which none of the other Marine codices can say).

 

Also if you like the idea of running Vanguard, check out the Space Wolves codex and look at Wolf Guard... they have similar statlines to Vanguards, are as flexible, can be geared up into Terminators if you desire, can take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport (especially useful if you take Logan Grimnar and make them troops), and all upgrades are 5 points cheaper than what the Vanguard pays for equivalent equipment (with the exception of the storm shield which is +10 points).

[Paulochromis]

the other 'death-star' in C:SM is the fully pimped out command squad on bikes. nice thing is you can get two in 2000 pts!