Confrontational Idea?

[the emperor is scottish]

What would you guys think of space marines that mated? Reading the Crimson fists booked i noted that a previouse chapater master assigned women and men of strong stock to breed the future warriors of the chapter. I thought this a good idea but flawed.

What if marines themselves could breed? This i know goes against what a marine can and cannot do but hear me out.

 

My own chaos force that im currently working on fall from grace has come through this idea. A chapter master consumed with the idea of creating perfect recruits sets his apothecarys the task of bringing his, his fellow masters of the chapter and the elites (1st company) reproductive system back into working order.

Women from their home world are chosen for this 'honered duty' and planted with the chapters seed.

 

The infant astrate develops in the womb quicker than a normal child, killing the unfortunate mother in the process. The now born infant is takem to the fortress monastery to be raised by the chapter. The children being taught the chapters history and ways from a yound age. Trained in the arts of war and death the youth reaching adolescence at an eccelerated rate takes the trial to become an initiate. Altough technacaly an astrate the chapter still work out the weak.

 

The imperium disgusted by this practis brings the chapter to acount demanding the chapter stop and hand over any infant astrate they had to be destroyed. Outraged the chapter refuses bringing the wrath of the imperium down on thier heads. The chapter flees finding its self in a universe that hates them they turn to the chaos gods for protection. The chapter continues their practise now taking young women from worlds enslaved by them and planting the seed of chaos within.

 

I can see this being a fairly succesful practise. No longer needing to gather gene seed or the process of implanting the organs. Im not saying it would go right 100% of the time infact I can see there being alot of problems but think of the warriors that would be produced.

 

Its different and maybe alittle to much but let me know what you think.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Artificial insemination could also work,and would be more effectif,that is of course if your Renegades don't start to worship Slaanesh,in wich case they prefere to do the "work" themselfs.

 

But there is a major flaw in all of this,SM are sterile,because of the way that they becomes Marines,they are exposed to chimio and other traitements to adapte to their changing metabolisme when passing from Serfs to actual recruits and Marines.

 

All of thoses chemicals traitments and genetical alteration they don't produce "seeds" anymore.

 

Well thats what i did understand from all of it.

 

Now i can be wrong,but never in the fluff have i seen anything that showed me i was wrong.

[Brother Nihm]

What if marines themselves could breed?

Then Progenoid glands and Apothecaries would become useless.

 

Not only that, what is to stop them from breeding a large enough force of marines and take over the galaxy?

 

 

To me, marines being unable to sire offspring is one of the immutable laws of 40K

[Grey Mage]

I have no problems with them being able to sire offspring... but those children would be human, not marines.

 

Atleast, if you go by some of the older fluff anyways...

[Captain Semper]

I have no problems with them being able to sire offspring... but those children would be human, not marines.

 

Atleast, if you go by some of the older fluff anyways...

 

I think Grey Mage has a point. If Marines were to mate in order to produce other Marines it'll take some Marine ladies to be involved. And the latter do not exist. If you get a post-human to mate with a human, God knows what the end-product will be. Maybe conception would be impossible? or we'll get stillborns? Being a Marine is an "upgrade" to being human. Not a genus or a race on their own right.

[Excessus]

I bet that Fabulous Bill has come up with a way to make the marines non-sterile again, and that's the real reason why no other legion dares to touch him!

[Commander Sasha]

What if marines themselves could breed?

Then Progenoid glands and Apothecaries would become useless.

There's your reason why they atrted doing it: a weakness in their geneseed caused a failure of their Progenoid gland.

 

I have no problems with them being able to sire offspring... but those children would be human, not marines.

 

 

I think Grey Mage has a point. If Marines were to mate in order to produce other Marines it'll take some Marine ladies to be involved. And the latter do not exist. If you get a post-human to mate with a human, God knows what the end-product will be. Maybe conception would be impossible? or we'll get stillborns? Being a Marine is an "upgrade" to being human. Not a genus or a race on their own right.

But they might be demi-astarte, with the additional organs present but under-developed. All of the upgrading is said to be done at a genetic level, not by pure transplant, so presumably the marine DNA includes coding for all the upgrades.

 

I bet that Fabulous Bill has come up with a way to make the marines non-sterile again, and that's the real reason why no other legion dares to touch him!

Bile is a popular, but lazy, answer to avoiding the fluff; I used to claim him for my female Space Marines, but using a character from canon to avoid sticking with canon usually makes things worse.

 

You are stepping outside of the GW universe, so welcome to the community of the mistrusted! I say stick with it, rely on infants born partially upgraded and needing nurturing, constant medical attention, and with a high infant mortality rate. There's a great bit of Grimdark for you: the anguish of mothers and school chums seeing classmates spontaneously splattering. That's bound to turn your chapter a bit psycho.

 

Plus, in terms of modelling, you can dump those horrid Scouts, and use some juvenile gang models from Necromunda, hasslefreeminiatures' gang range, etc! Use a carjacked DE Raider as a Landspeeder Storm!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If you are going from RL Biology, Marines [if able to at all] would sire regular humans.

 

The modifications of a Marine are not part of their germline cells [sex cells] and so they'd just be passing on their human genetic traits.

 

A body builder on steroids who won Mr. Universe doesn't father Mr Universe children, only children with [probably] excellent musculature DNA. What changed the body builder to Mr Universe was the steroids which he took. That steroid enhancement doesn't affect the DNA passed on through his sperm.

 

However, this is a Universe where Tank commanders drive forwards so they can hit things with their swords ;) so anything is possible :)

[the emperor is scottish]

I can defo see where you guys are coming from and see the holes in my idea. However with reguards to the yOung being still born can't a horse mate with a donkey to produce a mule, a lion and a tiger for a tigon or liger? Animals that although not the same share the same genetic background? Couldn't this be the same case?

 

Apothecaries wouldn't become redundant. They would still be field medics, surgeons and the chapter would most detonately need them to make sure the children developed correctly.

 

And agreeing with sasha in a universe where technology is so advanced space ships the size of cities can travel to distant planets in days by using Arcane engines that let them slip into a universe parallel to our own, weapons that fire plasma engery like a small sun and the genetic capabilities to create 7ft tall supermen then I don't think reversing certain effects to make some sterile again would be that difficult lol.

 

As for the chapters size or deviances in their gene tithes would cause the investigation that unearthed their act of recruitment.

 

I think in all accounts I was silly to believe the offspring would be astate but the idea of a Demi astrate then having to be nurtured to maturity is interesting. The high mortality rate would help explain why the chapter numbers arent as big as they could be.

 

With them being declared renegade and ultimate fall to chaos there would be nothing stoping them from calling apon the experain of 'madmen' like bile. To help refine the process.

 

Ty so much for the feed back so far I really am loving it. It's helping me with a half baked idea and really making me think about it.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm afraid the idea cannot work with our current GW sanctioned back ground on Marines. Marines are certainly genetic modified humans, but the list of changes is in Codex Space Marines and no-where has it been stated Marines sex organs receive enhancement (excuse the pun).

 

Essentially, if Marines could sire Marine children, they would. The fact is their sperm is unchanged.

 

It also doesn't take into account the creation of a Space Marine. You can't create a Marine just by implanting Geneseed and letting it do the rest. 3rd edition Codex Space Marines, for all it's simplicity, had some really good material in it, includin explanation of the creation process. It mentioned a whole bunch of different implantation stages where different organs were inserted into subjects inbetween training as Neophytes (pre-Scouts).

 

Sorry.

 

Maybe you can use a Daemon/mutant womb theory? Has been done of course, like in Dead Sky, Black Sun, but you can adapt it to your preferences?

[the emperor is scottish]

But if the implants are done at a genetic level so the body doesn't reject them and excepts them as part of the body after acouple hundred years like this wouldn't it be possible for the whole body to believe this Is how it's always been? Meaning the sperm changes it's genetic code to suit what is now and might aswell have always been? A marine will live a great deal more of his life as a marine than he ever did a human.

 

The organs are planted at separate stages so the body has a less chance of rejecting them and the marine to be to get use to the changes. The demi astrate, if that's what it would be, would develop the organs in the womb.

 

The only implant needed would be the black carapace.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Sperm doesn't suddenly decide "hang on, my body's different now, better change my genetics". That's not how evolution works (Lamarck was wrong in this regard). I can have a limb (let's say an arm) replacement that's slightly longer than my other arm, but that won't make my children have a chance of having one arm longer than the other. Otherwise, we'd have a lot of children born with cancer, as that's "part of the body", and by your logic should rewrite the sperm/ova. The only thing that changes sperm/ova is actual mutation. It doesn't matter if the body accepts the implants or not, the genetic data doesn't change.

 

The other problem with your theory is that many of the organs aren't actually useful in and of themselves. For example, the occulobe is the implant responsible for improving the eyesight of a Marine. However, the actual changes performed by the occulobe are rather minor, instead what they do is allow for the extremely invasive surgery performed on the Marine that improves the eyesight. Other organs only have an effect if used in conjunction with the correct chemical/hypnotic treatment.

[Excessus]

Since most of the traitors are either based in the maelstrom or the eye, I bet they would only produce half-daemons anyway...

 

I imagine sperm with jaws and big sharp teeth...

[incinerator950]

I've never been against the idea that Space Marines/Chaos Marines can't sire offspring. However, my limited research into the background of Space Marines shows the obvious lack of a sex drive, and no genetic enhancement to the reproductive organs as many of the above have mentioned.

 

I expect that Non-Tainted Marines will probably sire somewhat normal Humans. Chaos Marines (mainly Slaaneshi) will probably get some sort of genetic mutation depending on exposure to Raw Chaos energies and the Warp, genetic re-write on Fabius' brilliant planning, or whatever happens in 10k years of modification or mutation. I do expect their to be slightly less tainted, or lack of taint in some cases as the NLs Traitor Marines, but what the hell do we care?

[the emperor is scottish]

Sperm doesn't suddenly decide "hang on, my body's different now, better change my genetics". That's not how evolution works (Lamarck was wrong in this regard). I can have a limb (let's say an arm) replacement that's slightly longer than my other arm, but that won't make my children have a chance of having one arm longer than the other. Otherwise, we'd have a lot of children born with cancer, as that's "part of the body", and by your logic should rewrite the sperm/ova. The only thing that changes sperm/ova is actual mutation. It doesn't matter if the body accepts the implants or not, the genetic data doesn't change.

 

It's not all of a sudden though is it? It's a proseadure that's taken with infinit more complexity than anything we can do now and something the astrates body has to adapt to perfectly not to mention has centuries or millennia to settle in. The marines adapted body is more normal to them than their human one.

 

Survival, evelotution doesn't go to the fastest or strongest but the one more willing to adapt. Humanity and our amazing bodies and minds have proven that time and again.

[incinerator950]

Humanity hasn't evolved in several thousand years, another 10,000 only showed the eventual degredation and mutation of our genetic sequence, and Psykers in 40k.

 

I highly doubt that in their 10k+ years of existance, the Space Marines have figured out how to genetically rewrite human code to include All of the implants if they were to reproduce.

 

Then Nihm would be correct.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's not all of a sudden though is it? It's a proseadure that's taken with infinit more complexity than anything we can do now and something the astrates body has to adapt to perfectly not to mention has centuries or millennia to settle in. The marines adapted body is more normal to them than their human one.

 

Survival, evelotution doesn't go to the fastest or strongest but the one more willing to adapt. Humanity and our amazing bodies and minds have proven that time and again.

 

No, your sperm doesn't slowly change either. Once again, otherwise we'd have children born with missing limbs (amputees "normal bodies" would be missing the limb, right, which would change their sperm/ova according to that theory), but we don't. The implants given to the Astartes make no changes to their sex cells. They have no reason to. They don't inadvertantly do it, because that's not how sex cells work. It doesn't matter how long they've had the implants for, or how well bonded the implants are. It doesn't matter how "adaptable" the human body is, because that's not how evolution works.

The only thing to change sex cells is mutation, whether that be through incorrect copying of a sex cell, or cell damage, or through deliberate gene tampering. Implanting an organ does neither. Sex cells don't take notice of the rest of the body, adapting themselves to changes happening to the rest of the body. This theory could only work if AMs were deliberately splicing Astartes genes into the sex cells.

[Azarias]

A body builder on steroids who won Mr. Universe doesn't father Mr Universe children, only children with [probably] excellent musculature DNA. What changed the body builder to Mr Universe was the steroids which he took. That steroid enhancement doesn't affect the DNA passed on through his sperm.

 

Jean-Baptiste Lamarck disagrees, good sir!

[Lord_Caerolion]

And that's why Jean-Baptiste Lamarck is wrong, good sir!

[totgeboren]

So you want one organism, who by the way has two hearts, three lungs, overlapping ribs, can spit acid and has all sorts of other of strange abilities, to mate with an organism which has one heart, two lungs, and none of those strange things? And you feel that is comparable to mating a horse and a donkey? (Whose offspring is sterile btw.)

 

They are so far apart it's like trying to mate a horse with a bird. You should get a pegasus, right?

 

Ok, w40k is a sort of fantasy world, where mating a horse and a bird would likely produce a pegasus, but w40k is also a sci-fi setting, where some measure of respect is given to the laws of reality, and when they are not respected, an explanation is always given.

 

Also, the fluff as it is tells us that some of the new organs are implanted in the marine. That means the DNA has not been re-written to the point that the body can just grow them. And if the DNA has not been so rewritten, any offspring would not be born with these organs. And even if the DNA was rewritten, it's not certain the germline cells would be affected. Why would they, the marines are engineered, and are supposed to be sterile. Doing all the work for rewriting those cells would be a waste of time.

 

Anyway, I'm sure a reasonable story could be concocted which allows your marines to be born as marines, but you would need to break so many laws of the real world, and the fluff of w40k, that I think it's easier to come up with another story.

 

But if you are really sold on it, go on ahead. It's your army, and most people will probably care more about if the model over there has a meltagun or a plasmagun and so on.

[Krakev]

Funny how pro-athletes tend to have children who grow up to follow in their parents footsteps. 2nd and 3rd Generation american football players, wrestlers and (here in the UK anyway) football [soccer] players.

 

Flaws with the theory aside, would it not make sense that an Astartes offspring would be more likely to accept the gene-seed and associated implantations?

 

Perhaps then all you need is a good pool of Spartan women who can bear the Astartes children and raise them to be prepared for initiation, possibly skipping the trials that take place on other Astartes homeworlds.

 

Imagine if every generation of children from a particular world was almost guaranteed to accept the rigourous physical changes involved in becoming Astartes, that Legion would certainly be one to fear...

[incinerator950]

That's a load of garbage.

 

We've been discussing that this is about being able to reproduce with the implants already in the child. The fact is the implants are artificially implanted to the Marines. The Marines DNA does not change, only that the physical and mental health of the Marine are boosted. I don't get why you people can't grasp this.

 

Even if the Astartes children's health is better, not everyone would be compatible with the Implants. If the Astartes figured out that reproducing children is a more viable option for getting recruits, then they would have done so during the Great Crusade.

[Krakev]

That's a load of garbage.

Confrontational? Much?

 

I think someone needs to get out of the dungeon. It is:

 

A: Only a game.

B: Fictitious.

C: Theoretical.

 

Fact is that there is hard evidence that genes passed down from parents to children enable them to follow in their parents footsteps. I made no mention of changes to DNA or implants being present in Astartes offspring.

[Lord_Caerolion]

However, the idea being discussed isn't children being born with a heightened chance of accepting the implants if they were ever implanted, but rather children born with the implants already part of them.

[incinerator950]

That's a load of garbage.

Confrontational? Much?

 

I think someone needs to get out of the dungeon. It is:

 

A: Only a game.

B: Fictitious.

C: Theoretical.

 

Fact is that there is hard evidence that genes passed down from parents to children enable them to follow in their parents footsteps. I made no mention of changes to DNA or implants being present in Astartes offspring.

 

A lot of evidence, and not proof. You did, make mention of changes to DNA, by using it with the statement that Astartes offspring would bear those children more acceptable of Implants. Astartes traditions of weeding out people is not only to determine if they are genetically capable of accepting the Implants, but also to see if they can survive being sculpted into an Astartes. Even if they can accept implants they have to undergo years of Chemical and Hypnotherapy. Just being able to have a slightly higher chance because of being sired by an Astartes doesn't mean they won't survive any of the phases.

 

Not to mention the genetic instability in the Geneseeds and implants, and how a fraction of the Human race has evolved into Psykers, or mutants, would make it unstable to do such.