And Back To BA We Go...

[Khavos]

So. Been playing a lot of Space Marine lately. Made me remember how much I truly love Assault Marines. Thus, I'm turning away from the light that is Black Templars and back to embracing Blood Angel heathenism. Here's the question, though:

 

What are your thoughts on a footslogging BA list? I don't mean true footsloggers, of course; I mean jump infantry that's not Descent of Angel'ing, but instead walking across the board, preferably behind an armor wall of some sort. I don't like the "everything deepstrikes" approach, but I do thoroughly enjoy Assault Marines that aren't sitting in a Razorback the entire game. Seems like advancing them behind a Vindicator/Baal wall would be the only way to combine the two preferences, no?

[Glendor]

Sounds like a hybrid list to me and they work very well and is how I run my own list. Chrck out Morticons lists in his thread as it sounds similar to what you are looking for

[HERO]

I run hybrid lists all the time, check this out:

 

Mephiston = 250

10x ASM (PF/Infernus, 2x Meltaguns) = 250

10x ASM (PF/Infernus, 2x Meltaguns) = 250

10x ASM (PF/Infernus, 2x Meltaguns) = 250

2x Sanguinary Priest (JP, MB) = 160

Baal Predator (TLAC/HB) = 145

Baal Predator (TLAC/HB) = 145

Baal Predator (TLAC/HB) = 145

Predator (AC/LC) = 135

Predator (AC/LC) = 135

Predator (AC/LC) = 135

 

I form an armored wall and then use it to gain cover + jump out of when I need.

AV13 wall, hurrah!

[Khavos]

Yeah, something like that, I reckon, only with a little less Mephiston and a little more Sanguinor. I'd also be partial to a CC death star of some sort, but that could just be the Black Templar side of my brain talking.

[Glendor]

Oh its very easy to make BA deathstars whether through termies, sang guard, honor guard, VV, or most of all DC.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'm not a big fan of hybrid jumpers + mech myself, but if you are going to build such a list, vindies are a big no-no. Aside from the inherent weaknesses of the vehicle itself, you have to ask yourself: is throwing S10 AP2 pie-plates that deviate such a wise idea when you have jump assaulters operating in close proximity to the enemy?

[Black Memories]

Hybrid lists are very strong, despite what some forums may say. They have a lot of advantages, namely not being able to blow out the transport.

 

I've found a really strong combination is librarian + sang priest+ assault terminators in an LRC with assault marines running up behind them for cover/feel no pain. Most anti-infantry shooting bounces off them and the assault terminators as a low-AP magnet so they don't find much in the way of anti-tank shooting, it's needed elsewhere. The effect is two fold as well because assault terminators CAN be overwhelmed if left unattented and the assault marines can very much bring the extra bodies and attacks to push a combat in your favor during a game. Its a fairly powerful 1-2 punch that fits into what you're trying to go for anyways.

[Deschenus Maximus]

They have advantages, yes, but they also have disadvantages, key ones being less armour saturation and far shorter threat range. You're also more pigenholed into playing offensively due to relying more on your assault potential than a full mech list does; this limits the flexibility of your plan.

[Black Memories]

I'd say if we're going to be so definitive about it either way, razorspam gun lists wholly lack the ability to be offensive at all in a competitive environment given that they have no real assault capabilities. But I'm not so absolute about the list types people run.

 

Do hybrid lists tend to play aggressively? Yes. Is that a bad thing? No. Are they tactically inflexible? No. Honestly hybrid mech almost plays more of a counter-offensive style than an aggressive rush the board style mostly because you're picking your fights ahead of time or taking what is given if it's favorable. I'm not sure exactly where you got the idea that you have to play aggressively as a hybrid BA from, but it can play very defensively. Plus if you design your list appropriately with good support there's almost no anti-armor firepower drop off between hybrid lists and razorspam lists. Armor saturation is replaced by threat saturation, its a toss up. Anti-troop shooting is replaced by anti-troop assault ability.

 

Given that Khavos actually wants an aggressive assault based army, I'd imagine a hybrid mech list with strong assault potential would actually fit in perfectly with his desired play-style, assuming he went that route.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So. Been playing a lot of Space Marine lately. Made me remember how much I truly love Assault Marines. Thus, I'm turning away from the light that is Black Templars and back to embracing Blood Angel heathenism.

 

:mellow:

[AbusePuppy]

You don't need a wall of tanks to get cover with ASM; a combination of terrain, layering your units, and judicious use of Shield of Sanguinous does the job just fine.

 

"DoA" armies are actually a bit of a misnomer, since they will often enough deploy on the board and simply rush forward as you describe; Deep Striking is just another deployment option you have available. You will definitely want to have fire support from Devastators, though, and some Sanguinary Guard to bring a bit of extra choppy is probably a good idea. If you like the idea of hybrid lists, "Blood Rodeo" (bikes + jump infantry) can be very effective as well.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'd say if we're going to be so definitive about it either way, razorspam gun lists wholly lack the ability to be offensive at all in a competitive environment given that they have no real assault capabilities.

 

I don't know where people get that idea, but it's not true. If you don't equip your squads with equipment and forego Priests, then yeah... but that's not what I would call good list building anyways.

 

Do hybrid lists tend to play aggressively? Yes. Is that a bad thing? No. Are they tactically inflexible? No. Honestly hybrid mech almost plays more of a counter-offensive style than an aggressive rush the board style mostly because you're picking your fights ahead of time or taking what is given if it's favorable. I'm not sure exactly where you got the idea that you have to play aggressively as a hybrid BA from, but it can play very defensively.

 

It can, but it's not going to be super effective, all things considered, as a considerable part of your army will just be sitting behind your vehicles, contributing nothing to the firefight. They will be able to countercharge, sure, but so can Razor-borne squads.

 

Plus if you design your list appropriately with good support there's almost no anti-armor firepower drop off between hybrid lists and razorspam lists.

 

Close range anti-armour, no. But long range is going to be quite different.

 

Armor saturation is replaced by threat saturation, its a toss up.

 

Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying there, but hybrid lists don't have more threat saturation than a pure Mech list as far as I see it. They will generally have the same amount of units, but are spread out between troops and armour.

 

Anti-troop shooting is replaced by anti-troop assault ability.

 

That's not necessarily a good thing, even if it were true (Razor squads are quite capable of assaulting too when you combine their charge. You just have to plan one turn ahead).

 

Given that Khavos actually wants an aggressive assault based army, I'd imagine a hybrid mech list with strong assault potential would actually fit in perfectly with his desired play-style, assuming he went that route.

 

True that. I just feel it's necessary to expose him to both sides of the coin so that he can make an informed decision ahead of time.

[Khavos]

So. Been playing a lot of Space Marine lately. Made me remember how much I truly love Assault Marines. Thus, I'm turning away from the light that is Black Templars and back to embracing Blood Angel heathenism.

 

:P

 

I know. I feel dirty. Run me up a BT list with a full assault squad that doesn't suck and I'll reconsider.

[Khavos]

You don't need a wall of tanks to get cover with ASM; a combination of terrain, layering your units, and judicious use of Shield of Sanguinous does the job just fine.

 

"DoA" armies are actually a bit of a misnomer, since they will often enough deploy on the board and simply rush forward as you describe; Deep Striking is just another deployment option you have available. You will definitely want to have fire support from Devastators, though, and some Sanguinary Guard to bring a bit of extra choppy is probably a good idea. If you like the idea of hybrid lists, "Blood Rodeo" (bikes + jump infantry) can be very effective as well.

 

Devastators are, unfortunately, a no-no due to my intended use of that overpriced duelist known as the Sanguinor.

 

Everyone else, much obliged for the thoughts. Good to know it's viable and I'm not going to be kicking myself in the nads if I try it.

[AbusePuppy]

Devastators are, unfortunately, a no-no due to my intended use of that overpriced duelist known as the Sanguinor.

 

Everyone else, much obliged for the thoughts. Good to know it's viable and I'm not going to be kicking myself in the nads if I try it.

 

Turning down Devs and Deep Striking both is going to put you in a very rough position; there are going to be a fair number of armies that you just won't be able to deal with. Sanguinor is an okay (if not great) guy, but it sounds like you're really limiting your options. I suppose some AutoLas Predators and Land Speeders (MM/HF or Typhoon) can substitute, but your army is going to be notably worse for the lack.

[Khavos]

Devastators are, unfortunately, a no-no due to my intended use of that overpriced duelist known as the Sanguinor.

 

Everyone else, much obliged for the thoughts. Good to know it's viable and I'm not going to be kicking myself in the nads if I try it.

 

Turning down Devs and Deep Striking both is going to put you in a very rough position; there are going to be a fair number of armies that you just won't be able to deal with. Sanguinor is an okay (if not great) guy, but it sounds like you're really limiting your options. I suppose some AutoLas Predators and Land Speeders (MM/HF or Typhoon) can substitute, but your army is going to be notably worse for the lack.

 

Yeah, the general, hazy plan is to rely on armor to do what Devs would do. I'd go DoA, 'cept that has its own problems, as exemplified in the, "How do DoA armies handle Draigowing?" thread.

 

Sanguinor's likely going to be in simply because I have a weakness for CC monster HQs. You can make the argument that he's not durable out of CC due to not being an IC, and that's true, but throw him into the meat grinder and there's not much he can't destroy. You can also make the argument that Mephiston's a better all-arounder, and that's perfectly true, but I'm just not a fan.

 

This list isn't going to NOVA or anything, so I'm not overly concerned about optimization - hell, I play Templars. Maybe I'll bite the bullet and throw some Devs in, and just endure wasting Sanguinor's buff on a Dev sergeant some of the time.

[AbusePuppy]

I think a lot of people underestimate how useful Sanguinor is; sure, he's not blowing anything out of the water, but against MEQs he will tear up in close combat (S6 on the charge) and 3++/ and EW makes him fairly hard to bring down in the ~2 turns of shooting they have against him. (If there's something to hide behind, all the better- remember, wings and weapons don't count for drawing LOS to a model.) If you can get him in range of some ASM or SG when they charge, they can deal out a ridiculous number of wounds.

 

Rolling the Dev sarge could be annoying, but the +1W still helps you soak an extra hit before losing anything, so there's that. If you really want to minimize the chances, taking a 10man Dev squad with four Missiles and splitting it in half via Combat Squads actually works reasonably well, giving you two pretty tough units that put out enough shooting to suppress enemy vehicles.

 

If you don't like it, though, you can get by without, they're just a very cheap/flexible fire support option. If you're aiming to try for something more aggressive there are other options, though.

[Khavos]

That was my thinking on Sanguinor as well. He actually will blow stuff out of the water, at least as far as single combat goes; there aren't a lot of things in the game that can take him one on one.

 

I've been toying with a few death stars - I'm a little too used to my BT assault terminators - but haven't really come up with anything viable, and don't see any BA lists that run them, with the occasional exception of Death Company. I suppose that's just due to the meta tending towards MSU Razorback spam, which I personally hate.

[Claws of Corax]

I have a HUGE BA force (around 12k), one of my task forces uses:

 

Sanguinor,

Librarian in TDA

2 x Assualt Squads

Sang Priest on bike,

Sang Priest in TDA

Terminators (Assault)

Full Bike Squad

LRC

Baal Pred (AC & HB)

 

This is a 2k list that has worked well for me. I designed it so that Sanguinors blessing goes somewhere useful.

 

Hope this gives you a few ideas.

 

Claws

[Black Memories]

I personally ran a double deathstar + mephiston at the 'ard boyz semi finals and tabled 2 of my 3 opponents. Blood Angels have a lot of units they can take to support deathstar based armies very well, and they can be extremely competitive builds. Blood Angels death star units just to be less massive than BT ones, but they are still very deadly. They're used more in conjunction with your army than as a single all your eggs in one basket show piece.

[Father Mapple]

I have a lot of success with just 1 jumper-hammer unit, like Sanguinary Guard, or CC-Honor Guard. I put the Librarian with them, then juggle the 5+ shield power from the Librarian and the 6" FNP FC bubble from the Priest inside the HG to shield the jumpers behind the armor. For 2000 points, I use 2x Auto/Las and 1x Vindicator, with 2 Razorback Assault squads as well to move to midboard, let the Baals outflank and push my opponent to the middle, and watch the enemy *usually* run into my waiting Assault squads and Sanguinary Guard, who are great at combining combats. It's not "offensive" but a huge ground denial army. Outflanking, plus fast vehicles and jumpers means there's not many places to go.

 

At lower points, I just run Lascannon turret predators. More guaranteed hits at 12" means they keep up and I keep the long distance firepower I lost with the Razorbacks getting cut at 1500 or so.