Are Grey Knights Cheezy?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I look at it this way - if I have three units that are guaranteed to destroy a vehicle each by the end of the third turn I've taken out nine tanks... and that is only the 1/2 point.

 

G :)

[thade]

I feed 1 or 2 units to Draigo, 90% of my army goes after your psyflemen (or whatever). This kind of asymmetric warfare does not bode well for Draigowing....

This is such a blatant weakness of DW, I'm shocked it's doing so well in tournaments. Makes me wonder if people have just given up on Objective play and unconsciously gun for kill points no matter what's going on. :) In a lot of games I've played and I watch, people seem to forget about objectives between turn 2 and turn 4...remembering (sometimes) on turn 5 that they need an objective. The entire game I'm moving myself into a position where I can gun onto an objective and lock down a few others. Games I play where my opponent also does this are brutal, haha. And a great time. (In games I have lost, it was because the guy was obviously moving against me for objectives as I was moving, or because he duped me.)*

 

In all games I can remember winning in recent history, every single one of them had me with no more than eight models remaining; I control one point, my opponent none...with me contesting or blocking access to any other point he was nearby. Pyrrhic victories are still victories.

 

DW has a steep challenge with the number of targets it can engage in a turn and how much ground it can cover. You're footslogging: you have to know where you are going and how long it will take you. Your deployment and every move thereafter counts; few mistakes are allowed...if your opponent is playing to block you and not waltzing into your staggering kill zone.

 

*Okay, one game I lost recently I lost because I decided "I haven't just charged in, guns blazing, in a long time. Let's try that." You can probably extrapolate how I lost there. ;)

[number6]

I look at it this way - if I have three units that are guaranteed to destroy a vehicle each by the end of the third turn I've taken out nine tanks... and that is only the 1/2 point.

If we're going to play the "but there's more to my army than my paladin deathstar" card, then Draigowing's opponents get to play it, too. :) With 90% of my army available to focus on just 3 dreadnoughts ... I don't give the dreads good odds of surviving three turns.

 

And anyway, what with smoke launchers and cover -- tactical play, that is -- even psyflemen are far from "guaranteed" to destroy armour (or immobilize it, nearly as good a result) each and every turn. That's almost impossible, in fact. Psyflemen are admittedly awesome. They are not The Solution, however.

[thade]

I look at it this way - if I have three units that are guaranteed to destroy a vehicle each by the end of the third turn I've taken out nine tanks... and that is only the 1/2 point.

If we're going to play the "but there's more to my army than my paladin deathstar" card, then Draigowing's opponents get to play it, too. :) With 90% of my army available to focus on just 3 dreadnoughts ... I don't give the dreads good odds of surviving three turns.

Yep.

[Seahawk]

That's just my personal solution though. I'd also pit Mephiston against any IC carrying grenades (Meph goes first and will ID them on a single failed save, since he's S10 when he's angry).

Mephy still might not go first. Grenades can reduce his initiative to 1, take away all his attacks bar 1, make him Ld 2, etc...and that's not even including Psykouts. If someone still hasn't gotten the charge on Mephiston, they're doing it wrong. Just like using DW...:P...not everyone goes straight for paladins/dreadnought usage. Plus, only two grenade caddies in 2k? I have 3 in 1500!

 

Draigo and paladins...cannot fly.

Storm ravens can ;).

 

But what do you expect for 60+ points per model? Scared of I6? I don't blame you. Shoot them even more and charge in far later.

Agreed...plasma, Plasma, LASCANNON!!!

 

No, like I've said my opponents get flustered when my 230 points annihilates characters, hordes, elite units, you name it, without getting scratched in return simply because of a 15 point upgrade (or two). All it takes is 15 points to completely nullify any unit with a WS in the game. No it's not broken, but it's the closest thing to it that we have!

[breng77]

This is such a blatant weakness of DW, I'm shocked it's doing so well in tournaments.

 

I think the fact that it is new helps this. In addition many tourney are going to multiple mission objectives one of which tends to be KPs of some kind where Draigo wing is very good. I also think that many people at tournaments play to table their opponents and as such struggle when this win condition is removed.

[Whitefireinferno]

I will chime in and agree with GC08 and Meatman about the Grenades of I winitude. That and the nice lets have everything with a AV be basicly immune/immune(in the case of Land Raiders and Storm Ravens) to shaken/stunned for little to no cost. and as for the Mephy thing guess you haven't had him turned into mist by a Raven thanks to alpha striking all of its lovely defensive weapons and Mephys fantastical lack of a Inv save.

 

also in all my observations the only ones that defend the grenades and such as non cheese are the ones that use them.

[thade]

also in all my observations the only ones that defend the grenades and such as non cheese are the ones that use them.

That's very "witch hunt" of you. :P Here's another one: in all of my observations, the only ones that accuse grenades and such as being cheesy are the ones that can't deal with them (or choose not to).

 

I do not use said-grenades. My proposed GK list has no room for them and it will be a long time before it does.

 

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder. If something seems broken in melee...shoot it and stay away. If something seems broken in shooty...charge it. These things are not super; they're just different.

[falldown]

If something is broken in melee and only kind of broken at range, shoot it and stay away while dumping all the useless points you can in front of your important points to keep shooting.

[thade]

Falldown's answer is eloquent and brilliant. Allow me to simplify it for people who think more like me:

 

something something...keep shooting.

(See original quote for details.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Psyflemen are very resilient - especially with the 3++... you typically need to get in close to make sure you take them out then the deathstar eats you. :devil:

 

G

[Brother Ambroz]

From the perspective of someone who plays an older codex, DW in a tourney setting is night impossible for me. Even spamming lascannons from 6-9 oblits per turn. Rad nades, hammerhand plus halberds eat me alive and that's without getting into a more competitive list. I can't really say from the perspective of other marine armies though. I have the SW, SM and GK codex books and all seem like they should be able to handle each other without too much of an issue. It's the older books that suffer against GK really and that's just due to changes in the way they were designing codex books. As new stuff is released I'm sure you won't be considered cheesy.

[BrotherWasted]

Lol... go ahead and throw your vehicles at me. Free kill points as far as I'm concerned. A squad of Paladins should be wiping out any 150pt unit in assault in a single turn anyway, if they haven't shot it to death already.

[Azurious]

Not all the older dexs hate Draigowing, in fact the older DW (deathwing) :) positively glow when someone sticks an even pointier terminater army than theirs on the board :)

 

TBH tho draigo just doesnt seem to have been pulling his weight in my area, don't really know what its down too but from games iv played against them and seen they have been suffering quite heavily from massed low ap and high strength fire.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Then they are obviously doing it wrong. :angry:

[Dark Legionnare]

I'm sorry, but this should almost never happen. And if it does happen (see below), then it should be handled properly.

 

If I'm facing you:

 

* and you're footslogging, I would make sure to deploy far enough away that, at least initially, I am beyond the 24" reach of your guns (without at least forcing a full move out of you first). Then I would throw up roadblocks -- like Rhino/Razorback units -- that you can shoot down and eat. Over the course of 2, 3, or even more game turns. Well far away from most of my army. I would engage to destroy only if I had units full of 2+ save denying attacks that could survive for a round of power-weapon attacks. Too bad units like that don't exist. Oh wait, I guess there are TH/SS terminators, which are WAY cheaper than paladins... hmmm....

 

* or if the pallies are mounted in a land raider, I would be sure to throw up cheap vehicular roadblocks to stall the raider for 1, 2, or more turns until I can either slag the raider or have a tarpit set up to distract/absorb the paladin charge. (And If I'm playing my Tau, I'll just railgun the raider into slag and let the pallies walk all ... the ... way ... across ... the ... table.)

 

* or if the pallies are mounted in a stormraven, what happens depends on who goes first and deployment. If I go first and the stormraven is deployed, you can bet it's not going to survive my round of shooting. If my dice fail me horribly, however, I will have been smart in deployment and deployed deep into my own zone and surrounded my best assets with throwaway units. If you go first and the stormraven is deployed, I have DEFINITELY deployed deep into my zone and castled myself off. That way a potential 2nd turn charge is handled properly. If you reserve the stormraven, AWESOME! Don't move out of the deployment zone until it shows up. You now have at least 2 turns in which you have more of your army available to pound less of your opponent's army. Do so! Having played Tau for years, learning to be patient and staying put until the entire enemy army is arrayed before you is a critical skill to learn. It's one well worth learning for everybody -- Tau or not Tau -- when facing uber-deathstars like Paladins!

 

This is the thing about elite lists like Draigo. There are fewer units you have to worry about. They may be righteously awesome, but you can deal with them through superior deployment, tactical play, and simply being willing to sacrifice units and properly prioritize your threats. All you have to do is delay a Draigo/Paladin unit for a couple of turns while you throw your actual offense asymmetrically against the remainder. This is not rocket science. But most people, no matter who they face, line up as close to the enemy as possible each and every game and then drive straight at them. This is a recipe for disaster against any GK list, but especially bad against Draigowing. All it takes to change the result is to learn to be patient and actually play a tactically sound game.

 

I run them in a stormraven with a libby for a 3+ cover save on a flatout using his power. My list is nowhere near competitive or tournament winning. If I went back to my old psyfle list it would fair far better I believe, regardless. My paladins are not some uber deathstar either. It's just 5 paladins that go around doing heavy lifting whenever they can. Simple list based on 3rd ed dreams.

 

All you said in that post is what I'm talking about. Some people often don't do that in my playgroup. They just cry fowl of Overpowered Knights and pack up. It's poor sportsmanship, absolute BS, and childish. Stick around, back that Vindicator up and pie-plate them for God's sake.

[Crynn]

New codecies like this really seperate the good players from the great ones. All this GK hate here from supposedly good players is staggering! The only things in that dex that breaks anything is psychotroke grenades and DCA, I will admit that arey mental but people complaining about rad grenades and even empyrian brain mines need to harden up. I will try and filter through some of these horrible misconseptions and missunderstandings about the GKs.

 

Firstly is the complaint about draigowing. It is a good list, yes but it isn't better than the other top teir lists floating around, infact I'd probably say it isn't as good as them. It can't effect enough targets per turn and a smart player will use it's lack of speed to fight more on their own terms. I have never lost to a draigowing army because they are bland and cannot adjust to a different fighting style. If you are constantly loosing to this type of list, look at yourself, this means you need to adjust your army list. Sometimes your army list won't be good enough, so be it. I can make a space wolves list so damn hard that the average tournament list will cry upon deployment. Some list are just hard, Draigowing isn't the harderst!

 

Next is this thing about all comers list not having enough str 8 ap 2 weapons to deal with draigowing. What kind of all comers lists are you running? I can't think of any marine all comers list I would make that wouldn't be riddled mith meltas, missiles, lascannons, powerfists and thunderhammers. This comes down to your list not being that great as an all comers list because those weapons that are great against draigowing are also great against 90% of other armies out there!

 

Then the complaint about i6 force weapons. All I can say is, If my blood angels who rely on i5 furious charge can get around it then so can you. There reall'y aren't that many i6 units that are decent. Purifiers are great but only come in numbers with crowe who isn't and paladins. Terminators you will not see in competitive play in a years time when people finally realise how average they really are. If people have bought halberds on strikes and interceptors who cares they are paying 5 points per model it is a waste.

 

Grande dispensers. GMs are grea and work well but not everyone takes one, tech marine with a full compliment of grenades are 130 points for a 1 wound grenade dispensing kill point. They are ok but not amazing, people don't put these in draigowings very often as the list doesn't need them however if they do its more points spent in a unit that will now wipe any unit it touches just like it would have before. inquistors can have I win grenades however then a draigowing doesn't ahve a lib so now you have less psychic defence and no shrouding amoungst other usefull powers.

 

Someone even complained about not being able to kill palladins with 9 obliterators? Are you kidding if you had a lash or two in there you would molest a draigowing list. You kill the dreadnaught providing reinforced aegis first turn then next turn you use a couple of lashes (on average 1.2 will get past a psychic hood if it's in range) and you lash the paladins out of cover on average 7 inches backwards with one or two psycannons in terrain to slow down the unit next turn then light them up with 9+ lascannons they will go down very quickly. That isn't even taking into account any other str8 ap 2 weapons you may have. dreadknights will just explode to oblits in a turn if they get close due to twinlinked plama guns on each one and you have the entire rest of your force left as well. The limiting factor of you not being able to kill paladins with 9 oblits is either your dice or yourself.

 

shrouding breaks the game just like rad grendades which is likened to dantes mask. Well dante is a sub par character to start and if someone takes him and nerfs my char a little bit for the cost of 225 points I'll just thank the lord i have another easy game at a tournament. rad grenades reducing toughness doesn't really matter that much when you have psychic powers that raise your strength. lowering their toughness ins't even that much of a big deal because if they get instant deathed because of it they most likely would have just been instant deathed by force weapons anyway.

 

Psyfleman dreads are great but aren't any more disgusting than long fangs. they also have to be great as the GKs have no other decent long ranged anti tank. No devs no preds, typhoons yadda yadda.

 

And lastly if I see one more person writing how psychout grenades work when charged I'll just have to concede that stupidity is contagious

 

Regards,

Crynn

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have to disagree with some of what you said - especially in regards to GKT being subpar - they make an excellent support unit for a Draiogowing army.

 

G :P

[NeoSamurai]

Stick around, back that Vindicator up and pie-plate them for God's sake.

 

This works well against so many armies, I have trouble understanding why this isn't the default tactic against most opponents let alone Draigowing. Heck, pie-plate attrition and a follow-up with lightning clawed assault terminators seems like a good combo for C:SM and maybe C:CSM to use against most armies. The only reason I could think of why that isn't used against GKs is the shiny of the nuCodex is blinding. My biggest concern when I actually play my GKs is that they might not have enough in the way of trading fire-power pound for pound by the time they reach the coveted 24". Other than Orbital Strike, I don't recall much in the way of pie-plate for a GK focused army (i.e. little to no Inquisition) to field in comparison to a kitted out C: SM army or the combined fire-power of a line of tau.

 

In either case, anti-meq really does seem to be the way to shut down draigowing.

[Dark Legionnare]

The only reason I could think of why that isn't used against GKs is the shiny of the nuCodex is blinding.

 

In either case, anti-meq really does seem to be the way to shut down draigowing.

 

Thank you. That's my point. I can't stand that people read gossip on the Internet and take it as truth. The second to last game I played I barely got my Stormraven into his lines, the paladins popped out and murdered a Sternguard squad in my assault phase. He conceded immediately and then went on a tirade about how overpowered Grey Knights were before leaving me at the table to pick up my army.

 

If he wasn't so busy being a baby he could easily have faced the Vindicator and dropped the hammer of god on my paladins who were not tied up in melee anymore, and then put melta into them from numerous sources. I was banking on them not killing the entire squad, but I got one more Hammer roll than I should of and ended up out in the open. I would've taken grievous casualties, even with the libby's +cover save stealth power. But no, he whined and moaned about how the army as a whole was broken. NONSENSE. My tricked out 300+ point unit is obviously going to do that kind of damage, it's 300+ points of terminators!

 

It's definitely the "shiny" you mentioned that people just read online as OP and take as truth. It 100% of reminds me how some people hate on something you like for no other reason than the other person they hang out with dislikes that something you like. He never stayed to finish the game with the "for funsies" GK list I put together, he automatically assumes it's just going to faceroll his entire army because my expensive, but vulnerable and small, unit murdered his favorite Elites slot choice.

 

It also makes me relive the first couple months after the Blood Angels dex came out. My list stayed practically the same from 4th to 5th except changing Veteran Assault Marines to Vanguard Marines and some small wargear swaps. I caught so much flak from people saying, "You're just playing the current power army to win." No one bothered to see that my list was almost EXACTLY the same as it was in 4th Edition, or the fact that I'd been collecting/playing ONLY Blood Angels since 3rd Edition when i started 40k at the age of 8.

 

People need to take off their blinders and not chalk up every hurt they take from a recent army release as being overpowered. Especially in the case of my GK army which I changed because I didn't want to sit across the table with a "certain-matter-eating" grin and unload with 3 psyfle dreads. I thought it was cheesey/lame, so I made my army much more normal and centered on my 3rd edition dream of many knights on the field with little armor.</rant2>

[greatcrusade08]

Stick around, back that Vindicator up and pie-plate them for God's sake.

 

This works well against so many armies, I have trouble understanding why this isn't the default tactic against most opponents let alone Draigowing. Heck, pie-plate attrition and a follow-up with lightning clawed assault terminators seems like a good combo for C:SM and maybe C:CSM to use against most armies. The only reason I could think of why that isn't used against GKs is the shiny of the nuCodex is blinding. My biggest concern when I actually play my GKs is that they might not have enough in the way of trading fire-power pound for pound by the time they reach the coveted 24". Other than Orbital Strike, I don't recall much in the way of pie-plate for a GK focused army (i.e. little to no Inquisition) to field in comparison to a kitted out C: SM army or the combined fire-power of a line of tau.

 

In either case, anti-meq really does seem to be the way to shut down draigowing.

 

becuase ML spam works so well against termies :)

 

ive never said GK themseves are cheesey, isay that draigo is, not paladins but the man himself.

if it were a case of fighting the statlines id be ok with that, but IMO the difference between powerful and overpowered is the little things like psychotrope greandes, rad greandes, brain mines and stackabale strength bonuses combined with I6 force weapons.. although the latter is only really an issue with multiple attack WS5 units like pallies and termies

 

All you said in that post is what I'm talking about. Some people often don't do that in my playgroup. They just cry fowl of Overpowered Knights and pack up. It's poor sportsmanship, absolute BS, and childish. Stick around, back that Vindicator up and pie-plate them for God's sake.

tbh your attitude doesnt help, its easy to take that position when your the one using the OP list.. if it were your tournament going buddies id understand your gripe more, but most GS gamers are beer and pretzel players.. i go to the odd tourney, but most of the time i just want a friendly game to relax from my 2.4 kids, wife and job.

If all im doing is "pushing plastics"** then the game is no fun for me and i have to question the guy bringing a tournament level army to a frindly environment, isnt that like bringing a gun to a knife fight?

and yet these guys are the ones being unsporting and cry babies.. no-one has to play you, and if you bring this attitude with you, no-one will likely play you again.

bottom line is the masses are right, even if you dont agree with them.. perhaps like seahawk you could tone down your list or help your opponents understand better.. there are plenty of builds in the GK dex that arent cheesey why not play one of them for friendly games and bring out the big guns in the run up to tournies when other people can play thier top tier lists against you for practice?

 

**pushing plastics is a term i use when youve no chance of winning a game, you get walked on so hard that your not actually taking part in the game your rolling dice and moving models and thats about it.. im sure plenty of players will make a big deal of this statement, but i dont much care.

 

myself and thade usually agree on most points, but i feel i have to orrect him, throughout this thread ive seen multiple posts syaing GK arent cheese or there is no cheese, however his last post was more correct, in that "cheese is in the eye of the beholder".. if a vast majority of people think its cheesey then perhaps it is?

like i said before my qualm isnt paladins or necessarily the I6 force weapons, its all the little things which makes countering or exploiting the GK weaknesses nigh on impossible

dont even get me started on sanctuary!!

 

i should say that ive no qualms in taking on a GK list, but a draigowing IMO is overpowered and no fun for me to play against, i could make a quick list of items i consider a little cheesey, but i wont rehash old arguments.. many of you cant agree and thats cool, your GK players after all.. i think nurglez and seahawk understand the opposing arguments well enough, perhaps you should listen to them guys, a message is easier coming from an ally after all :D

[Whitefireinferno]

All you said in that post is what I'm talking about. Some people often don't do that in my playgroup. They just cry fowl of Overpowered Knights and pack up. It's poor sportsmanship, absolute BS, and childish. Stick around, back that Vindicator up and pie-plate them for God's sake.

 

Because maybe just MAYBE people are sick of playing against the new silvermarines+, I have turned down games for this reason of late. then gone to find something more fun to fight, Where I just get accused of only wanting a game where you can win... REALLY would you rather I tell you I cannot play against your superior intellect for fears of wetting myself at the sheer thought of your palidins sheer awesomeness of the 9th degree. No I am just not interested in the 20ish GK players who all use the same exact moan because I brought my army with a 4th ed book to the store this week and do not want to play a game of "see how fast WhiteFireInferno can fill up his carry case".

 

Sure Superior Tactics can beat superior force. Only issue there is 2 people of comparable tactical acumen bump heads its when the better army shows. Tactics have their limits as a codex by codex basis.

 

Last thing Bitching because people did not want to play against your toy soldiers and claiming "poor sportsmanship" , "absolute BS" and "childish" is well in my view worse.

 

My club I go down every now and then and normally take my Tau(less cases to cart around) and people get interested in having a battle because not every man and his dog and his dogs fleas is playing some form of marines, And then people ask if the Farsight Enclave logo on the case means a Farsight list. Some people enjoy fighting something different and for ALLOT of people GK players seem to blot out the sun. I wonder why? I doubt because it's the learning curve of average marines but all round better for a marginal cost extra.

 

lastly I completely agree with GC08 on most of his statements, Its not so much that the GK are just better marines its the little things like grenades and trinkets that If you gave them to a Xeno army and they completely Negated any GK projectile you would cry cheese. It is in the eyes of the beholder too bad it is a "eyes wide shut" moment

[Dark Legionnare]

tbh your attitude doesnt help, its easy to take that position when your the one using the OP list.. if it were your tournament going buddies id understand your gripe more, but most GS gamers are beer and pretzel players.. i go to the odd tourney, but most of the time i just want a friendly game to relax from my 2.4 kids, wife and job.

If all im doing is "pushing plastics"** then the game is no fun for me and i have to question the guy bringing a tournament level army to a frindly environment, isnt that like bringing a gun to a knife fight?

and yet these guys are the ones being unsporting and cry babies.. no-one has to play you, and if you bring this attitude with you, no-one will likely play you again.

bottom line is the masses are right, even if you dont agree with them.. perhaps like seahawk you could tone down your list or help your opponents understand better.. there are plenty of builds in the GK dex that arent cheesey why not play one of them for friendly games and bring out the big guns in the run up to tournies when other people can play thier top tier lists against you for practice?

 

**pushing plastics is a term i use when youve no chance of winning a game, you get walked on so hard that your not actually taking part in the game your rolling dice and moving models and thats about it.. im sure plenty of players will make a big deal of this statement, but i dont much care.

 

myself and thade usually agree on most points, but i feel i have to orrect him, throughout this thread ive seen multiple posts syaing GK arent cheese or there is no cheese, however his last post was more correct, in that "cheese is in the eye of the beholder".. if a vast majority of people think its cheesey then perhaps it is?

like i said before my qualm isnt paladins or necessarily the I6 force weapons, its all the little things which makes countering or exploiting the GK weaknesses nigh on impossible

dont even get me started on sanctuary!!

 

i should say that ive no qualms in taking on a GK list, but a draigowing IMO is overpowered and no fun for me to play against, i could make a quick list of items i consider a little cheesey, but i wont rehash old arguments.. many of you cant agree and thats cool, your GK players after all.. i think nurglez and seahawk understand the opposing arguments well enough, perhaps you should listen to them guys, a message is easier coming from an ally after all :)

 

The point I was getting at and have clearly put forth is that my list not a competitive list. It is not some "every game winning" list. I'm not a tournament player, I dislike competitive environments, especially with 40k where it's the luck of the dice and one of the best ways a couple friends can kick back for a few hours. It's 5 paladins, a Stormraven, and 30 total knights. It's not some godly list, I've lost plenty of times with it, I'm not cleaning up the enemy's side of the table with reckless ease. What I was expressing a disdain for is the people who don't take the time to listen or understand. They just cry fowl because of some strong opening moves and then pack up citing something that's dramatized because of "cheese" lists. This is true of any army list that's designed to just abuse and clean your table side up in a mere 2-3 turns. I could do the EXACT same damage if not more with my Blood Angels and not many people rage at them anymore. I've had plenty of games where my rolls sucked horrendously and I got steamrolled in the first 2 turns to fire, assaults, etc... But I always stick around and fight it out, grind out some draws or maybe even lose.

 

I agree with your standpoint on the Draigowing. I cringe every time the guy playing that list comes around my house or the local store. It's no fun. But I play against normal Grey Knighters, like myself, whenever they ask to. Sometimes I steamroll them, sometimes they steamroll me, sometimes we tie. The end-all point I was getting at is that GK overall are not a completely overpowered cheese army. You can do what I do and run an army you dreamed of (and by dream I mean a fluffwise dream, as in I like the idea of all those knights just slogging up the field and fighting and dieing in service to Emps; not a tournament winning dream list) since 3rd ED and have an effective punch, yes, but it's not some "pushing plastics" nightmare army.

 

Because maybe just MAYBE people are sick of playing against the new silvermarines+, I have turned down games for this reason of late. then gone to find something more fun to fight, Where I just get accused of only wanting a game where you can win... REALLY would you rather I tell you I cannot play against your superior intellect for fears of wetting myself at the sheer thought of your palidins sheer awesomeness of the 9th degree. No I am just not interested in the 20ish GK players who all use the same exact moan because I brought my army with a 4th ed book to the store this week and do not want to play a game of "see how fast WhiteFireInferno can fill up his carry case".

 

Sure Superior Tactics can beat superior force. Only issue there is 2 people of comparable tactical acumen bump heads its when the better army shows. Tactics have their limits as a codex by codex basis.

 

Last thing Bitching because people did not want to play against your toy soldiers and claiming "poor sportsmanship" , "absolute BS" and "childish" is well in my view worse.

 

My club I go down every now and then and normally take my Tau(less cases to cart around) and people get interested in having a battle because not every man and his dog and his dogs fleas is playing some form of marines, And then people ask if the Farsight Enclave logo on the case means a Farsight list. Some people enjoy fighting something different and for ALLOT of people GK players seem to blot out the sun. I wonder why? I doubt because it's the learning curve of average marines but all round better for a marginal cost extra.

 

lastly I completely agree with GC08 on most of his statements, Its not so much that the GK are just better marines its the little things like grenades and trinkets that If you gave them to a Xeno army and they completely Negated any GK projectile you would cry cheese. It is in the eyes of the beholder too bad it is a "eyes wide shut" moment

 

I don't get miffed at people who don't want to play. If they don't want to, that's fine. I turn down playing against my IG friend some times because every game with him turns into much more time of my life taken because of how many shots go back and forth in that game, usually resulting in games where I'm cratered into the ground by his fire in turn 1, or I run out of time because the game takes too damn long to finish with so many shots. What I don't like is people who do ask to play me and then pack up and cry because my Paladins got into melee. It IS poor sportsmanship when they ask to play me, or I ask them, we agree, I move a piece in this "chess game", it's a good move, and then they claim checkmate because my army on the field is "Grey Knights and they can't do anything against them" and give up when they could easily point everything they have at my now exposed unit and kill it in one turn without actually having to use EVERYTHING to shoot at them. The game is easily balanced because my army is NOT some powergaming list. It's just 35 footslogging Knights. Read the above quote response for even more reiteration of that.

[thade]

myself and thade usually agree on most points, but i feel i have to orrect him, throughout this thread ive seen multiple posts syaing GK arent cheese or there is no cheese, however his last post was more correct, in that "cheese is in the eye of the beholder".. if a vast majority of people think its cheesey then perhaps it is?

There was a time when the vast majority of people believed the world was flat and that Earth was the center of our solar system. <3 So, no, more voices do nothing more than add fuel to a needless fire, in my mind.

 

You can beat them, my man. I know you can.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There is no cheese... remember the comp onion. ;)

 

G :)