Are Grey Knights Cheezy?

[Brother Ambroz]

Someone even complained about not being able to kill palladins with 9 obliterators? Are you kidding if you had a lash or two in there you would molest a draigowing list. You kill the dreadnaught providing reinforced aegis first turn then next turn you use a couple of lashes (on average 1.2 will get past a psychic hood if it's in range) and you lash the paladins out of cover on average 7 inches backwards with one or two psycannons in terrain to slow down the unit next turn then light them up with 9+ lascannons they will go down very quickly. That isn't even taking into account any other str8 ap 2 weapons you may have. dreadknights will just explode to oblits in a turn if they get close due to twinlinked plama guns on each one and you have the entire rest of your force left as well. The limiting factor of you not being able to kill paladins with 9 oblits is either your dice or yourself.

 

 

Are you :) kidding? Yeah try lash with all the anti-psyker gear out there now, lemme know how that works. Don't try to tell me how to play the army I've played for 10 years.

[thade]

Guys, chill it out, yo. We are above that sort of mudslinging here. <3

 

The current Chaos dex is having a lot of trouble with the new GK codex; here's hoping they get the update that seems to be coming within a year.

[NuclearMessiah]

Well I find this entire topic a bit ridiculous now, several points have been made and it could be roughly summed up in

 

1: Grey Knights are new and shiny and people play them to instant win.

 

2: I6 force weapons blow for everyone

 

3: Psykeout nades also blow

 

4: Most armies have the tools to defeat the GK, but most players don’t bring list to cater.

 

I mean honestly it is all well and good to sit here and debate on the merits of cheesiness of our codex, but at the end of the day when the Shiny Skeletons roll out 65% of the GK player base will jump the band wagon and we will be all bitching about how OP they are (after all Mat Ward is writing that book as well). Then the Tau will come out and we will repeat the game all over again and we will keep doing this until A) GW balances the codex against each other (don’t hold your breath) B) GW closes up shop and we all move on to other hobbies.

 

So if you take anything away from my post it is this. No one is ever going to be happy, they will always find something to complain about, and the newest codex is always cheesy.

 

 

EDITED for grammar and spelling and such

[thade]

I mean honestly it is all well and good to sit here and debate on the merits of cheesiness of our codex, but at the end of the day when they Shiny Skeletons roll out 65% of the GK player base will jump the band wagon and we will be all bitching about how OP they are (after all Mat Ward is writing that book as well). Then the Tau will come out and we will repeat the game all over again and we will keep doing this until A) GW balances the codex against each other (don’t hold your breath) B) GW closes up shop and we all move on to other hobbies.

 

So if you take anything away from my post it is this. No one is ever going to be happy, they will always find something to complain about, and the newest codex is always cheesy.

^This.

[number6]

Sure Superior Tactics can beat superior force. Only issue there is 2 people of comparable tactical acumen bump heads its when the better army shows. Tactics have their limits as a codex by codex basis.

Two examples about how NOT cut and dried this issue is of "GKs are definitely overpowered".

 

This year, 5 members of my FLGS are heading to the 'Ard Boyz Finals. (One of them actually won the event last year.) One of them is taking Necrons. B) Last night he challenged the guy taking his GKs to Finals to a randomly selected 'Ard Boyz scenario. (It turned out to be the 5 objective scenario.) And he won a Minor Victory after 7 turns. (Had the game ended either turn 5 or 6, it would have been a Major victory.)

 

I myself took my Tau out against a tooled up mech IG army and won a Kill Points game handily (11-6).

 

Tactics win games. Not armies.

[thade]

Tactics win games. Not armies.

If neither side uses tactics, then the armies win. <3 But really, if that's what's happening, you're doing it wrong. I think that's really the message here.

[Something Wycked]

You guys are hitting the nail on the head time and time again. Nurgz said it too:

 

I do think some grey knight builds are very powerful vs certain armies, but I'm sure that all the decent "net lists" were rather powerful until people found the best way's to beat them.

I think the problem is deeper than 40k. This could be dangerous, so let me preface this: I am not speaking about anybody here at the B&C. We're all at least competent players and I have nothing but respect for all of you. <3 What I'm about to say is concerning the people like the ones Dark Legionnare has encountered at his LGS, who give up at the slightest hint of difficulty or refuse to play GK altogether.

 

We're living in a time when many people don't have to work very hard for much of anything. Instant gratification with no effort expended for it. This is why people want the easy 1-click armies; if I buy the army, it'll play itself and I'll win, yay me!

 

This is also why people have issues playing against new codices. They haven't (and likely won't) put forth the skull sweat to figure out for themselves how to beat the army. All they know is that the tactics they're currently using to beat the tar out of everyone aren't working against the GK codex, and they must therefore be cheesy. They'll wait until the knowledge and tactics developed by the "top players" trickles down to the internet through blogs and forum posts.

 

The Grey Knight codex is not cheesy. Some uses of it can be, of course, but that's the player and not the codex and is true of every codex. (For some older codices, the "cheesy" lists are now considered to be the "only viable list for tournament play," by people who like to think such things.)

 

Once the tactics for defeating the various GK lists percolates through the 40k world at large, GK's will cease to be considered cheesy by the vast majority of players. By that time, some new codex will have come out to take up the slack and become the "new cheesy codex" the way GK supplanted C:BA.

 

Once more, I hope none of you took offense at this, because it wasn't directed at any of you :(

[thade]

Something Wycked, that was an awesome post!

[Seahawk]

The obvious truth.

This is something I said I long time ago on here. The internet ruins the game B).

 

Yeah try lash with all the anti-psyker gear out there now, lemme know how that works.

It actually works pretty well, when you think about it. Previously, Hoods were unlimited range. Now they're only 24", making it a +1 for Lash. Previously, Grey Knights all had their mini-hoods, which was replaced by a paltry -1 to Ld (it's not very effective when it reduces enemies to Ld 9), so another +1 for Lash. In my tournament game this weekend I got lashed a few times...

 

What got worse for Lash? Space Wolves got a silly codex and most people use transports now. Eldar always had their trickery, as did all the other races. Not really that much new anti-psyker gear unless you're exclusively playing against SW (which sucks).

 

But I digress. With all of my armies (except GK), fighting against GK hasn't been a problem. Just gotta know what to do :P.

[greatcrusade08]

actually thade and I are in agreement again, that was an awesome post.

the tool itself is not broken, but used by certain people it can be made 'cheesey'.

 

its pretty much what ive been trying to say only bundled up in a one sentence response that i never thought of.. the basic GK dex is a good solid dex, ive said all along that its the added extras that make it difficult to swallow.. the dex doesnt force these upgrades onto units, the player does.

 

@Thade, i can and have beaten GK with my scout army, the story does actually have bearing on this convo so ill summarise..

theres a dude at my old LGS who has to have the best of the best of every army, give him his due he can write some mean army lists, his old sisters list was nigh on unbeatable for alot of the chaps (there was some discussion on whether he was 'overusing' faith points).. basically he doesnt do fun lists, he has to win, but hes a nice enough guy to talk to and he hangs woih the noobs doing multi player games so no-one really notices.

i happen to think hes not a very good 'sport' for an opponent, doesnt disclose his rules very well, if at all, and doesnt let you know if youve forgotten something or have made a mistake unless its detrimental to him.. but i digress.

he brought a Gk army to the table, really maxed out the upgrades, every GK had a halberd, did MSU, had a unit of pallies with libby and draigo with 2 NDKS, the rest was 5 man units, interceptors and strikes for 1750..

becuase it was so expensive i was able to ignore the pallies and wipe out his other units until the final couple of turns when i killed off his pallies with massed shooting, i admit i got lucky with draigo making very few saves... in the end i tabled him, but it was a tough game that required lots of thought to out play him.

next time i see him hes running a pure draigowing with librarian and apothecaries and my army bounces off.

 

You might say good for him, hes changed his list to counteract the only person who managed to beat him, or you could say he catered to play my army.. either way he didnt try to work out how to make his list better, he dropped the units that were just ok and switched them for more cheese.. libby has every power and he uses sanctuary and shrouding more often than i use this forum..

i had to play him at the kthulu tourney that nurglez won, actually nurglez beat the guy himself on the top table, showing that not spending ponts on apoths is wise when the rending is what does the damage.. i digress again

i could have very well beaten him with my chaos had it not been for the added extras.. and thats probably why im a little bitter about it.. it wasnt tactical i clearly outplayed the fella.. it was merely oh i have this upgrade, or im using this psychic power... "I WIN"

 

i hope that little anecdote made sense

[Something Wycked]

This is something I said I long time ago on here. The internet ruins the game ;).

B) But seriously, I don't know that I'd go that far. The internet has increased my enjoyment of the game via the B&C :P

 

What got worse for Lash?

When that -1 Ld turns into a -4 Ld when there's a Dreadnought around, and you have to roll on Ld6 ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A person can play an army however they like if its legal. Cheese is in the eyes of the beholder... and just because say for example 5 people say it is cheese that does not mean there is not 1000 or even more who would say differently. Basically cry babies gonna cry. :P

 

G

[greatcrusade08]

A person can play an army however they like if its legal. Cheese is in the eyes of the beholder... and just because say for example 5 people say it is cheese that does not mean there is not 1000 or even more who would say differently. Basically cry babies gonna cry.

 

i was wondering when the childish elements would show up and spout thioer rhetoric again.. didnt have to wait long it seems.

you fail to see the divide between competative play and friendly play, there are alot more friendly gamers out there than tournament goers and youd do well to at least try and understand thier viewpoints.. yes a person can play any army they want, but if they upset a big portion of thier gaming group they will find a shortage of gaming partners..

a game is a moral contract that both people are to have fun, if one person really doesnt like playing the top tier GK lists then who are you to call them cry babies.. its very selfish

[Something Wycked]

i had to play him at the kthulu tourney that nurglez won, actually nurglez beat the guy himself on the top table

Quite aside from nurglez' demonstrated skill, you had a very significant part to play in effecting nurglez' victory over this player, gc08.

 

You showed this guy the parts of his list that a skilled player with your style of army could take advantage of. He excised those parts of his army and replaced them with parts that your style of army can't handle.

 

So, yes, now you can't beat him. But the parts of his army that he replaced are precisely what would have given him a better chance to beat nurglez. And he didn't have them on hand; he tailored his list to beat you and then failed to beat nurglez.

 

Is his list cheesy? Probably. Most tailored lists are, to one extent or another. But highly tailored lists don't perform well against all-comers.

 

Even though he won the tabletop battle, he lost the bigger war due to your influence gc08

[greatcrusade08]

see, now your just stroking my ego..

 

and hes purring like a kitten

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A person can play an army however they like if its legal. Cheese is in the eyes of the beholder... and just because say for example 5 people say it is cheese that does not mean there is not 1000 or even more who would say differently. Basically cry babies gonna cry. :P

 

i was wondering when the childish elements would show up and spout thioer rhetoric again.. didnt have to wait long it seems.

you fail to see the divide between competative play and friendly play, there are alot more friendly gamers out there than tournament goers and youd do well to at least try and understand thier viewpoints.. yes a person can play any army they want, but if they upset a big portion of thier gaming group they will find a shortage of gaming partners..

a game is a moral contract that both people are to have fun, if one person really doesnt like playing the top tier GK lists then who are you to call them cry babies.. its very selfish

 

 

Oh... I'm childish because I don't say the same as you? Well maybe you are a troll... I'm just saying. :P

 

G

[greatcrusade08]

Oh... I'm childish because I don't say the same as you? Well maybe you are a troll... I'm just saying.

 

what on earth is wrong with you?

i said you were being childish by calling people cry babies, now your accusing me of being a troll???

 

wow i bet your much loved in your games group

 

@BO if your not part of the solution then your part of the problem.. there are two sides to this issue and all your doing is patronising and insulting the opposing side.

its not constructive and its not clever.. you really need to try and understand them, if you dont want to understand them then stop posting stupid comments

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You really kill me with your holier than thou attitude - you don't really know anything about me so don't presume. I think you are a troll because anytime an opportunity comes along for you to dump on this army you can't help yourself - to me that is childish. Why not be a man about it and let it ride? Hmmm?

 

G

[number6]

It was only last week I had to shut this topic down temporarily because people couldn't keep their calm heads about them.

 

Flamefest is over for good now. Also know that I will nuke any topic that tries to continue this conversation elsewhere on the forum. The subject is closed. Permanently.

 

You have only yourselves to blame.