Are Grey Knights Cheezy?

[Brother Ambroz]

I won't play GK with either C:Daemons or CSM. I'm sorry to all you GK vets out there but our codex books are far too outdated and yours is too new. It's lambs to the slaughter essentially.

[Gentlemanloser]

Did that stop you beating up on the old DH codex? -_-

[Brother Ambroz]

I rarely ever played the old DH codex. When I did though I usually played fluffy lists.

[BrotherWasted]

I'm having the same problem, although everybody here knows, I'm not a Waac player. I think grey knights are a balanced army which can be cheesy, if you spam the right things (like space wolves, blood angels or guard.) which somehow makes them balanced with a least 3 armies.

 

The problem is the people are afraid of power weapons. They are going completely nuts about them. That's a meta game problem I think. Vanilla hammer termies will ruin a grey knights day. Melta marines get shot to pieces by us, but what about plasma guns? The problem is still that no one is used to grey knights and not thinking hard enough.

 

Vanilla Hammer Terminators lose to a counter charge from two Strike Squads, or a single Purifier Squad. You realise all you have to do is more or less cause them to fail 5 3++ saves? In other words they have the same odds of failing a save as a normal Marine has at failing their armor save. It's not hard.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, to add personal experience to this thread, my group no longer looks forward to playing my GK. Not me, we're all really close IRL mates. Just the GK.

 

The Marines are down heartened by facing everything with a Power Weapon (our group finds that unlike the tournament scene CC rules 40K, not shooting. ;) ). The Deldar/Eldar don't enjoy the amount of ID ranged shooting. The Daemon player has shelved them, going from a "OMG Bloodletters, Flamers, the Taker and 'crushers are so broken it's just not fun to face" to "It's like you've taken the Old Sanctuary, I can't do anything against you" army in the release of a single codex.

 

This ignores Pallies, which they all find terribly hard to deal with. Or even the other bug bear, all Force Weapons. Which make any MC/2W builds cry. And I6. The I6 is the cake.

 

I have a difficult time (like the Daemon Player did) fielding a list that they don't feel is "ZOMG WAAC OP", without just throwing away games fielding the 'dross' units from the 'dex (like an Assassin, and Warior Henchmen, etc).

[BrotherWasted]

Same here. Play down your Codex as much as you want, but in a lot of cases, you really have to build your army to fight against Grey Knights.

 

Draigowing is beatable, sure. But in most cases it's an uphill battle without building your list to take it on. Contrary to popular belief, volume of fire DOESN'T kill Paladins - this is why they are proving so effective. Concentrated AP1 and 2 fire does. When 10 Paladins can take on an entire round of bolter/Las, pie plates, Krak Missiles, Lascannons etc and come out taking only one or two wounds in total, your argument of shooting them to death with everything you have is invalidated. You have to shoot them with the right weapons, not every weapon.

 

On the other hand, while I do have BA and Guard as my second and third armies, I don't play them much anyway. The best way to beat a Draigowing player is to play PAGK and use his own weapons against him. The only true weakness of a Paladin is massed Force Weapons. Throw even two Strike Squads into 10 Paladins and watch the Draigo player cry.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Did that stop you beating up on the old DH codex? ;)

 

 

Quote of the week !! :D

 

G ;)

[Gornall]

Same here. Play down your Codex as much as you want, but in a lot of cases, you really have to build your army to fight against Grey Knights.

 

I don't know if I agree with this too much. My Smurf list didn't change at all with the release of the GK codex. It already had a mix of melta, long-range fire, and CC elements to handle most lists and I think it matches up well against the GK dex. I haven't fought Draigowing yet, but I don't see it as being any harder to handle than a normal competitive list is for Vanilla Marines.

[Something Wycked]

Same here. Play down your Codex as much as you want, but in a lot of cases, you really have to build your army to fight against Grey Knights.

I'm going to echo Gornall here. My C:SM and C:BA didn't change in the slightest to face GK or Draigowing; I'm already tooled out to kill Marines since MEQ is 95% of my opponents :P

[thade]

I have engaged Purifier spam lists twice now with my fluffy-to-a-fault list and I've won both times. Just keep a level head and don't get psyched out by it (pun intended) and you can handle them.

 

I'm willing to bet D.W. would be the fight of my life with that list, but I'm not afraid. As far as I know, I'm the only one around here building one.

[Seahawk]

Most complaints I've gotten from opponents have been about the grenades, especially assault-based armies. My GK ignore or negate other army's high I, high attacks, toughness, and multiple wounds. Incoming shooting doesn't do as much either, since there are few targets and they are usually pretty tough.

[Brother Nihm]

Does anyone remember the Chaos Siren lists of the previous edition?

Remember the rage that followed it?

How was it looked upon at the end of 4th ed. 40K?

 

What about the 'current' Lash armies?

 

Where are they now? ... :mellow:

 

For me, gimmicky lists that many (being the keyword) people build because "i have read it on the internet!" does not paint an army book in the most positive light and I can understand why there are regular complaints/jokes about the GK 'dex. But it was the same for us (C:CSM) in 4th with the Siren build, and in 5th with the Lash builds, the same for the IG 'dex, the same for the BA, SW, all with their gimmick lists etc. etc. etc.

 

People will get over it and the GKs might even also end up being in the dirt again power-level-wise (sadly) like some of the other books.

[the jeske]

Does anyone remember the Chaos Siren lists of the previous edition?

oh it was the awesome . syren lord . 2x3 bikers rending netts everywhere . though the list did have some bad match ups ;/ .

 

lash only worked because at the time of it going legal , most sm armies were mini max based with a counter unit and AC everywhere and this ment 2xlash +9 oblit +3x5plasma possessed could kill 3-4 units per turn per turn and as everything was scoring back then [or taking quarters etc] multi wound oblits were a very good fire base.

 

 

list was still dieing like a slag to eldar circus. ah good times.

[Gunslinger87]

Did that stop you beating up on the old DH codex? ^_^

 

 

Quote of the week !! :lol:

 

G :wallbash:

 

The only problem with that is with the old DH codex a reasonable estimate was that your probability of playing Dh was one in a thousand... now its probably one in 10... Overpowered codexes attract players like juicy blood does mosquitoes :-D

 

Personally, I really wanted to play GK ever since I started with 40K... however I was at Uni last year and if I started now I would be seen as just another guy jumping on the band wagon. rather than face the stigma, I'll stick to my ultramarines (funny eh? :-D)

 

The sad thing is that in friendly settings (or basically NOT tournaments) it isnt the best players that jump on codex bandwagons... its often just rich people with plastic unpainted models... being beaten by someone that is used to coming last on every tournament he enters just isnt right. You dont want to fuel kids self-confidence so falsely and spawn a new generation of uber-cool super geniuses that "can be anything they want to be" :-D

[ChaosPhoenix]

I'm having the same problem, although everybody here knows, I'm not a Waac player. I think grey knights are a balanced army which can be cheesy, if you spam the right things (like space wolves, blood angels or guard.) which somehow makes them balanced with a least 3 armies.

 

The problem is the people are afraid of power weapons. They are going completely nuts about them. That's a meta game problem I think. Vanilla hammer termies will ruin a grey knights day. Melta marines get shot to pieces by us, but what about plasma guns? The problem is still that no one is used to grey knights and not thinking hard enough.

 

Vanilla Hammer Terminators lose to a counter charge from two Strike Squads, or a single Purifier Squad. You realise all you have to do is more or less cause them to fail 5 3++ saves? In other words they have the same odds of failing a save as a normal Marine has at failing their armor save. It's not hard.

 

Isn't it good, when Strike Squads charge you? Yes, your Terminators are probably dead. But two Strike Squads would loose a round of shooting which would have caused more damage. Furthermore a full equiped Strike Squad is around 230 Points, two of them makes 460 points while the Terminators are 200 points flat. If you charge Paladins with them, you're likely to kill less models, but kill more points and tie up a part of the Grey Knights army. The Terminators don't need to survive. They can't score anyway. You're right when you say you'll need to support the unit which get's attacked by the Terminators, but maybe the Terminators got support too. He's got enough free points to do that, because his army is cheaper.

[Gunslinger87]

I'm having the same problem, although everybody here knows, I'm not a Waac player. I think grey knights are a balanced army which can be cheesy, if you spam the right things (like space wolves, blood angels or guard.) which somehow makes them balanced with a least 3 armies.

 

The problem is the people are afraid of power weapons. They are going completely nuts about them. That's a meta game problem I think. Vanilla hammer termies will ruin a grey knights day. Melta marines get shot to pieces by us, but what about plasma guns? The problem is still that no one is used to grey knights and not thinking hard enough.

 

Vanilla Hammer Terminators lose to a counter charge from two Strike Squads, or a single Purifier Squad. You realise all you have to do is more or less cause them to fail 5 3++ saves? In other words they have the same odds of failing a save as a normal Marine has at failing their armor save. It's not hard.

 

Isn't it good, when Strike Squads charge you? Yes, your Terminators are probably dead. But two Strike Squads would loose a round of shooting which would have caused more damage. Furthermore a full equiped Strike Squad is around 230 Points, two of them makes 460 points while the Terminators are 200 points flat. If you charge Paladins with them, you're likely to kill less models, but kill more points and tie up a part of the Grey Knights army. The Terminators don't need to survive. They can't score anyway. You're right when you say you'll need to support the unit which get's attacked by the Terminators, but maybe the Terminators got support too. He's got enough free points to do that, because his army is cheaper.

 

Yes, but you cant possibly compare a 200 point squad of 5 elites with 460 points of 10 troops. Thats like saying 10000 points of gaunts are obviously worse than 250 points of Land Raider since they cant hurt it at all.

 

Try doing the same with 10 sm troops vs 10 gk troops or 5 sm elites vs 5 gk elites.

 

Assault termies vs halberds? tactical squads vs any GK squads? Sure there are options that can deal with it somehow (plasma cannons etc.) but thats not to say that a complete idiot who fields 10 random picks out of Codex: SM will easily beat a complete idiot who fields 10 out of GK. The fact that there are certain ways of outplaying Gk in no way negates the fact that they are overpowered. You shouldnt need to play at your top game and have a bit of luck to beat someone who just picks up a codex and makes a list he finds on the internet, and possibly not even succeed.

[Brother Nihm]

They've just put this up over at BOLS: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/09/edi...k-off-grey.html

[jhrovii]

Seriously, I play this army (not even Daemonhunter, Pure Grey Knights) for nearly a decade and I should take some grief because some guy on the internet doesn't like it? Daemonhunters are good and now their players and hobbyists should be apologetic? I'd like to have a word face to face with the authors of these articles.

 

BOLS, 3++, and YTTH are the armpits of the internet. I need no more motivation to quit the hobby then having to read unending posts whining about everything and telling me I'm a dunce for basing my models or doing more than the 3-color minimum. OMG nub!!1 Spend more time practicing!! You need to get good at rolling dice for 'ard boyz! Do you like being a BAD PLAYER?

 

All the guys that try to make Warhammer into Starcraft need to go back to playing Starcraft so they can become super-pro and international nerd-champion for doing 180 actions per minute.

[nurglez]

I can be considered a band wagoner, having had an interest in grey knights since playing against them when my friend ran daemon hunters, I've loved small elite armies. Moving from deathguard (nurglewing?) to renegade Logan wing, and then Draigo wing. When I first collected Draigo wing I didn't realise how powerful it was, thought I would have a steep learning curve like with my logan wing. Having abused wound allocation with Logan wing, I was used to it, so it doesn't take me long to assign wounds.

 

Having only lost 2 games and drawn 3 out of all my games, my opponents sure have issues with my force, so much that I am now collecting dark eldar (4 games 2 draws 2 losses). I do love Draigo wing though, but playing with friends is about having fun. I don't even use a libby for most of my games, as I don't have the points but also consider him overpowered :lol:

 

I'm actually toying with an idea for a list with 6 solo paladins as the troops, and then loads of killy stuff. Just to give my friends a more fun game.

 

There have been several posts on several sites I visit, moaning about grey knights or Draigo wing. I sure hope necrons are as overpowered as grey knights are.

[jhrovii]

I see nothing wrong with being a "band-wagoner" or buying new armies. I mean every time a codex is re-released it's like you're playing a totally different army based on the new rules and models. I can empathize. It's your money, use it how you want it. The Grey Knights spotlight will be over soon anyway.

 

Sorry I know I missed like 5 potential complaints about GW and other players. Here's the politically-correct response:

 

Band-wagoners are killing this hobby; you should pick an army and never buy from any other model range. GW only releases codexes to MAKE MORE MONEY because they care more about MAKING MONEY than anything else! Play how I tell you to! Grey Knights will be OP till 7th edition!!!

[Captain Idaho]

I think the problems people are having facing GK and the infamous Draigo-Wing is they basically have such amount of quality, game chaging wargear/enhancements for dirt cheap and people can't use a traditional balanced list to take on some GK armies (depending on which Codex you use).

 

I've faced GK competetively once and won, but have no illusions I can bea a Draigo-wing without extremely good luck (or a retarded opponent) in my balanced lists. Sure I can tailor my balanced list more for GK but then that will skew things for me.

 

However, I believe this is all just short term set backs and DOESN'T BOTHER ME. Reason for this my friends is I have been optimistic about GW recently and I feel GW have balance Grey Knights in the long term planning rather than immediately. The balanced, not sure what you are going to face approach has forced SW players to change from a Missile Launcher spam with Thunderwolf support in fear of DW turning up. Those IG armies with all their Veterans and cheap fast transports are at serious risk of Psycannon and Pysfleman Dread destruction.

 

And so on. What is balancing GK? Well when the IG players realise their Veteran and Vendetta spam is a death trap they will go back to taking more traditional choices, so we wil see more heavy weapon squads and Leman Russ tanks with Draigo and his mate's number. This will help the rest of us of course, as the GK player will adjust his list in a way to beat the new IG lists and thus give the rest of us a break.

 

Plus the next Necron Codex will turn up and make half of these GK net lists obsolete.

 

That's my hope of course, but I'm sure we will see it in the next couple months, certainly by the new year.

[Brother Nihm]

The biggest issue that I know of is with books that have 1-2 viable Tournament builds. Said builds can't touch a regular GK list used by a competent player, much less Deathstar lists like Draigo-Wing.

In other words, books like Chaos and 'Nids.

 

This is not the fault of the GK Codex to me though, it is merely bad overall game design.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Azurious]

Personally I'm a big fan of the bandwagon as it gives me no end of Latest release armies to test my Deathwing against and figure out stratagies for overcoming them ^^ I'd much rather be doing this in a LGS than in a tourny :D

 

I tell you now one of the armies I would least like to face in a tourny is a necron one and this has nothing to do with what they do. Its simply that I have never fought them before and your always afraid of the unkown :)

 

The bandwagon on the other hand has given me enough experience of the latest releases to at least be comfortable in the knowledge that I know the tricksy shennanigans that acompany them :)

[breng77]

Nids actually can do pretty well against GKs depending on the build they run. GK shooting does not hurt nids nearly so badly as it does to other armies (T6 MCs with feel no pain get their armor save and FNP against pretty much all GK shooting.). Sure GKs can assault with force weapons, but with shadows this is a 50-50 proposistion of being successfull. The problem Nids have is that they die to other armies.

[nurglez]

Nid MC's who are also psykers don't like psykout grenades at all. Storm raven can kill a tyrant with 4 hits from the mindstrike missiles, due to no invulnerable saves. And brotherhood banner auto passing force weapons along with sanctuary cast from inside a vehicle makes nids cry...

 

I consider grey knights quite powerful vs nids.