Are Grey Knights Cheezy?

[thade]

I think the problem for new players is the money invested vs how good an army is.

You make a good point, Jeske. This has always been the case, more or less, though. Space Marine armies by and large have been cheaper to collect than other armies (many of which have been in metal for a long, long time), especially Imperium variants. I'll grant you, D.W. seems to be a new extreme, but they're not unbeatable by any means.

[Azurious]

Cost has a lot to do with it when selecting a force for new players, and in a lot of cases our hobby has become quite prohibitive for fresh starting players, especially considering that most are still in school and therefore don't have the disposable income that others might. With this in mind I'm quite a fan of lists like draigowing as they allow easier and faster access to a decent list and therefore offer more pull start the hobby. Once somone is in its very unlikely that they will stick with the single list they have bought, but now they have a list getting stuck into somthing thats more expensive (Longer time to build) doesnt seem like as much of a problem.

 

I'm also with Crynn on his take of draigowing. I feel it should be placed with lists like leafblower. It is worth pointing out though that all those lists are a bit of a gamble. Leafblower needs 1st turn to be successful, the guy who built it said so himself that the only reason he cleaned house at ard boys was that he won first turn in all of his games. Draigowing while not needing 1st turn does need decent matchups, if it comes across a lot of high strength/ranged low ap fire it will suffer quite a bit.

[number6]

/agree with Crynn 110%.

 

Me too. Especially since he made several of the same points I did myself! :ph34r:

[thade]

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder, after all. <3

[boreas]

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder, after all. <3

 

Poor maligned beholder.... :ph34r:

 

Phil

[thade]

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder, after all. <3

Poor maligned beholder.... :ph34r:

If you had a chunk of gouda stuck in your giant anti-magic cone eyeball, you'd be in a bad mood too.

[scitrix]

One thing that gets me as a Space Wolf player are Halbreds. If I didn't see some palidans with halbreds it wouldn't be a big deal. I'd go as far as to say, that is what will save a GK player from Blood Angels with priests, and Space wolves running Ragnar. If I saw a Palidan squad with a lot of swords and Hammers, i'd happily charge them. I'll throw more power weapon attacks at them than they can deal with at I5+. From a guard perspective, just bring S8+ and ap 1 or 2. That will sort Palidans out easy enough. Like what was said earlier "Cheese is in the eye of the beholder"

[thade]

Not sure I follow, Scitrix. Their higher initiative and viability in combat is accounted for by the stark lack of numbers; a Paladin force will have 20-30 infantry models on the table with no transports and little-to-no ability to perform a Sweeping Advance between 1500 and 2000 points. Any other army will have more mobility and as much or more fire power. Just because it's a bad idea to charge them doesn't mean they're imbalanced. :D It means don't charge them.

[scitrix]

Maybe it just where I play. Space Wolves, blood Angels, and even Black templars that would use there FC units to mop up now have to hope they brought enough other tools to even the odds a bit. Not saying it's impossible, but i've yet to see a unit charge Paladins and win. Even some armies that rely on close combat will feel that difference in Init. Incubi striking after Paladins? really? Nids, well, poor nids. They need a take 2. Im not saying GK's are unbeatable, but where that superior 24" shooting doesn't win it for them, init 6 power weapons seem to. I did kinda laugh when I got a palli with Jaws of the world wolf.

[thade]

Shooty Nids - especially with the Doom of Malen'tai or at least his lesser brothers - will give the Paladins a good amount of trouble. Not to mention Shadows on the Warp will somewhat even the score (no Force Weapons without a Banner, no Hammerhand, etc.).

 

As for marine units that could charge a Paladin squad, I'd say Hammernators have more than a good chance. Dreadnoughts will kill one or two before a hammer can bring them down. Calgar supported by either one will give them more than a run for their money. Not to mention Logan Grimnar. Long Fangs with Lascannons might seem pricey, but for the number of Paladins they'll evaporate per turn it might not be so bad.

 

I feel like Dark Lance spam is one of the scarier things Paladins will have to deal with.

 

At the end of the day, they seem broken because they kind of have to be. When one model with even a single upgrade can cost nearly 70 points (for which you could get four tactical marines) it means his force will easily be outnumbered 2-to-1 (when you include APCs and vehicle support). By marines who are typically outnumbered 2-to-1 by anything else. They'd either go down like chumps (a la 4th ed) or they'd be rock stars. There's no in between for a force built like this.

[number6]

Not sure I follow, Scitrix. Their higher initiative and viability in combat is accounted for by the stark lack of numbers; a Paladin force will have 20-30 infantry models on the table with no transports and little-to-no ability to perform a Sweeping Advance between 1500 and 2000 points. Any other army will have more mobility and as much or more fire power. Just because it's a bad idea to charge them doesn't mean they're imbalanced. ;) It means don't charge them.

 

Bring a balanced list. Adjust your tactics.

Don't fear the GKs ... learn 2 adapt. :)

[scitrix]

I feel like Dark Lance spam is one of the scarier things Paladins will have to deal with.

 

Couldn't agree with you more. Trueborn can have what? 4 Blasters and dark lances? Not to mention just Ravager spam, each raider with a darklance.

[Zincite]

Shooty Nids - especially with the Doom of Malen'tai or at least his lesser brothers - will give the Paladins a good amount of trouble.

Pah. A unit of 30 Termaguants any day.

 

"What? You just sliced through thirty of my 'Guants? I only manged to kill of one of yours? Well, that went better than I expected. Here, have another thirty... *Starts pushing models forth with happiness.*"

[boreas]

Shooty Nids - especially with the Doom of Malen'tai or at least his lesser brothers - will give the Paladins a good amount of trouble.

Pah. A unit of 30 Termaguants any day.

 

"What? You just sliced through thirty of my 'Guants? I only manged to kill of one of yours? Well, that went better than I expected. Here, have another thirty... *Starts pushing models forth with happiness.*"

 

You, my friend, are a real nids player :)

 

I love guant waves. It makes for cinematic and fluffy games. Even more so when there's the occasionnal tervigon wading through that sea of chitin...

 

Phil

[MagicMan]

You, my friend, are a real nids player :devil:

 

I love guant waves. It makes for cinematic and fluffy games. Even more so when there's the occasionnal tervigon wading through that sea of chitin...

 

Phil

 

 

Such an expensive army, sadly. :(

[nurglez]

And would also get owned if there is a libby casting sanctuary :D , yes I know about shadows of the warp but used well you could keep the libby out of range :D

Yes Draigo gets out numbered, but it needs a lot of high str low sp shots at once. True born with blasters, combi melta stern guard, ravagers, devestators with las, chosen with melts etc etc. Not many people use these, and when they do we will prioritize and kill them.

 

Any way. Grey knights str strong, and best a lot of enemies at what they do best, only really lacking long range high str low ap weps. They require a change of tactics and maybe units, Draigo requires different tactics and units too.

 

Over powered yes, cheesy Maybe.

[number6]

True born with blasters, combi melta stern guard, ravagers, devestators with las, chosen with melts etc etc. Not many people use these, and when they do we will prioritize and kill them.

Really? :D With the exception of devastators with lascannons -- of course the missile launcher is the favored weapon (and even they will cause a few insta-kills against the occasionally missed 2+ save) -- the units you mention are used all the time and everywhere in the army lists I face.

 

DE trueborn: all blasters is quite common. At least as common as all cannons.

Sternguard: Nobody runs them with anything BUT combi-meltas.

Ravagers: 3 in every DE army list. Unless it's 2 Ravagers and 1 Razorwing instead.

Chaos Chosen: Who runs any marines that can carry meltas with anything but meltas? I sure as heck don't know any. Chaos chosen are no exception.

 

And there are a lot of other common units -- that are always taken in multiples! -- that you didn't mention that are taken all the time as well, all of which should spell doom for any army list overly dependent upon paladin deathstars. E.g., IG veterans with meltas, IG vendettas, Tau railguns (one guy I know runs 9 broadsides in 2000 pts), etc.

 

This is kind of what I meant way back when I was talking about "taking the right tools for the job". 5e is King Mechanized edition. Anything with a 2+ save -- and especially models like Paladins that pay a premium for an extra wound but which still suffer from instant death from any weapon S8+ yet don't have a decent invul save -- should be well and afraid every time it hits the table. Everybody I know loads up on anti-mech weaponry everywhere in their army list. Even for "fluffy" or "casual" play, this is all but a hard and fast "rule". It surprises me that people don't do this everywhere. Anti-mech weapons are still useful against infantry! Especially against elite infantry armies like say, oh I don't know, Grey Knights! :D Especially "Draigowing" armies.

 

What I'm getting at nurglez is a reinforcing of what I and several others have said before. It really does sound like your usual opponents have simply built incredibly poor army lists for 5th edition 40K. And any random assortment of GK units is basically better than that. "Draigowing" in such an environment really is a steamroller. But you don't even have to build a "competitive" army list to combat "Draigowing" -- or other GK builds -- effectively! You just have to recognize that the melta gun is far and away the best weapon available, period. The basic 40K rules make this a reality. Similarly, cheap and plentiful lances is clearly a winning build for DE; the basic 40K rules make this so.

 

It's just recognition of reality and really has nothing to do with "tuning" a "competitive" list. It's simply recognizing what works based on the core rules of the game. You can build a totally fluffy army list that still has a ton of meltas in it! And thus you should do, too!

[nurglez]

If player I plays has 2 vendettas, demolisher, 3 vet squads with 2 melta and marbo, as well as other stuff. Space wolf player had tons of missiles, plus a few lascannons. I often play vs orks, nids and angels sanguine. I do fully admit that I'd expect to have a hard time vs either flavour of eldar, as well as certain marine lists.

 

I look at lists here, and I don't see many lascannon heavy forces, its often autocannons or missles and melta for anti tank. Less chosen more combicide, oblits over preds or havocs. Assault Termies over sternguard.

 

I would love to play vs a blaster heavy dark eldar force. In a thread I was asking for armies tailored to best Draigowing, and will hopefully play vs a marine one soon. Heavy on melta and plasma :D

 

Only slightly of topic there heh.

[Brother-Captain Chaere]

True born with blasters, combi melta stern guard, ravagers, devestators with las, chosen with melts etc etc. Not many people use these, and when they do we will prioritize and kill them.

Really? :) With the exception of devastators with lascannons -- of course the missile launcher is the favored weapon (and even they will cause a few insta-kills against the occasionally missed 2+ save) -- the units you mention are used all the time and everywhere in the army lists I face.

 

DE trueborn: all blasters is quite common. At least as common as all cannons.

Sternguard: Nobody runs them with anything BUT combi-meltas.

Ravagers: 3 in every DE army list. Unless it's 2 Ravagers and 1 Razorwing instead.

Chaos Chosen: Who runs any marines that can carry meltas with anything but meltas? I sure as heck don't know any. Chaos chosen are no exception.

 

And there are a lot of other common units -- that are always taken in multiples! -- that you didn't mention that are taken all the time as well, all of which should spell doom for any army list overly dependent upon paladin deathstars. E.g., IG veterans with meltas, IG vendettas, Tau railguns (one guy I know runs 9 broadsides in 2000 pts), etc.

 

This is kind of what I meant way back when I was talking about "taking the right tools for the job". 5e is King Mechanized edition. Anything with a 2+ save -- and especially models like Paladins that pay a premium for an extra wound but which still suffer from instant death from any weapon S8+ yet don't have a decent invul save -- should be well and afraid every time it hits the table. Everybody I know loads up on anti-mech weaponry everywhere in their army list. Even for "fluffy" or "casual" play, this is all but a hard and fast "rule". It surprises me that people don't do this everywhere. Anti-mech weapons are still useful against infantry! Especially against elite infantry armies like say, oh I don't know, Grey Knights! :D Especially "Draigowing" armies.

 

What I'm getting at nurglez is a reinforcing of what I and several others have said before. It really does sound like your usual opponents have simply built incredibly poor army lists for 5th edition 40K. And any random assortment of GK units is basically better than that. "Draigowing" in such an environment really is a steamroller. But you don't even have to build a "competitive" army list to combat "Draigowing" -- or other GK builds -- effectively! You just have to recognize that the melta gun is far and away the best weapon available, period. The basic 40K rules make this a reality. Similarly, cheap and plentiful lances is clearly a winning build for DE; the basic 40K rules make this so.

 

It's just recognition of reality and really has nothing to do with "tuning" a "competitive" list. It's simply recognizing what works based on the core rules of the game. You can build a totally fluffy army list that still has a ton of meltas in it! And thus you should do, too!

 

An interesting thing to note is there are only a few units (all NON PA/TDA GK!!!) that have access to melta anything. It is really quite interesting that our so called 'elite' army doesn't have access to the best weapons in the metagame on a comparable level to other armies.

[number6]

An interesting thing to note is there are only a few units (all NON PA/TDA GK!!!) that have access to melta anything. It is really quite interesting that our so called 'elite' army doesn't have access to the best weapons in the metagame on a comparable level to other armies.

I have often complained about this in the past with respect to the old Daemonhunters codex. (And I'm pretty sure I noted the bizarre discrepancy when the new GK codex hit the streets as well.)

 

However, truth to be told, the lack of melta weapons is a decent game-balancing factor for the GK codex. So I accept it as just and necessary.

 

That said, it just doesn't make any rational sense when the codex says over and over and over again that the GKs have access to not just everything, but the best of everything! :D Viewed from that angle -- the fluff angle -- the total absence of meltas is a massive head-scratcher. You can't tell me that psycannons are better against possessed vehicles than melta weapons (if only because of AP1)! :)

[Brother-Captain Chaere]

I completely agree number6. I really am trying to figure out how to pull GK out of mediocrity and into the light. Draigowing and Crowifier lists do play to the strengths of our codex, as nothing short of running non-GK out of our book will put as many bodies on the table as other armies at any point level. While I very much like the principle of GK as the 'elite' army, we simply do not have competitive options in the overall meta.

[BrotherWasted]

If you are trying to flood the table with bodies, you're playing the GK Codex wrong.

 

You won't ever have as many bodies on the table. The bodies you do have will kill more than their share. When you bring the other army's model count down to your own, you have won the game.

 

We are winning and placing high in tournaments. Your statement is completely invalid.

[Brother-Captain Chaere]

If you are trying to flood the table with bodies, you're playing the GK Codex wrong.

 

You won't ever have as many bodies on the table. The bodies you do have will kill more than their share. When you bring the other army's model count down to your own, you have won the game.

 

We are winning and placing high in tournaments. Your statement is completely invalid.

 

We're winning because we're new (and because we have skilled players using our book). Using the old codex we still won, and we were even worse off then. Winning has no bearing on what our book contains.

[Rafen_2]

People used to buy 'strategy guides' for video games before the internet.

 

Now, I've no idea how they make any money!

 

Unfortunatly, me I like lots of pretty pictures and background fluff not the "just do this!" approach. Odd comparison but a physical video game strategy guide is like the Snuggy bear who says it is okay and take it easy while the internet is Hitler punching you in the face.

[Brother Ambroz]

While I very much like the principle of GK as the 'elite' army, we simply do not have competitive options in the overall meta.

 

I'm sorry but I find this just hilarious.