Are Grey Knights Cheezy?

[jhrovii]

While I very much like the principle of GK as the 'elite' army, we simply do not have competitive options in the overall meta.

 

I'm sorry but I find this just hilarious.

You should read what Stelek is posting over on his blog (GKs are teh suck). Basically the same thing; this is probably one of his disciples.

[Brother-Captain Chaere]

While I very much like the principle of GK as the 'elite' army, we simply do not have competitive options in the overall meta.

 

I'm sorry but I find this just hilarious.

You should read what Stelek is posting over on his blog (GKs are teh suck). Basically the same thing; this is probably one of his disciples.

 

Meh, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'm not trying to be some high and mighty :P tard, just trying to call it like I see it. I'm not saying we aren't successful, I'm just saying we have to be smarter than everyone we play against in order to -be- successful.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

While I very much like the principle of GK as the 'elite' army, we simply do not have competitive options in the overall meta.

 

I'm sorry but I find this just hilarious.

 

 

+1

 

G :P

[Brother Ambroz]

If you really think you need to be smarter to win using GKs try using a old codex in tournaments.

[Brother-Captain Chaere]

While I very much like the principle of GK as the 'elite' army, we simply do not have competitive options in the overall meta.

 

I'm sorry but I find this just hilarious.

 

 

+1

 

G :P

 

 

Again, not trying to be an a$$hole, but please explain to me in terms of the current meta how GK is supposed to come out on top? I don't believe the magic answer is Psycannons or Psyfilemen as so many seem to think. For instance, we have no easily accessed melta equivalent. Our general shooting game is better than most marines by a longshot, but their best is better than our best. See what I'm saying?

[Brother Valerius]

No need to get snippy, you guys. Dude's entitled to his opinion, even if I do disagree with him.

[jhrovii]

While I very much like the principle of GK as the 'elite' army, we simply do not have competitive options in the overall meta.

 

I'm sorry but I find this just hilarious.

 

 

+1

 

G :P

 

 

Again, not trying to be an a$$hole, but please explain to me in terms of the current meta how GK is supposed to come out on top? I don't believe the magic answer is Psycannons or Psyfilemen as so many seem to think. For instance, we have no easily accessed melta equivalent. Our general shooting game is better than most marines by a longshot, but their best is better than our best. See what I'm saying?

 

The GK codex can take 3 Twin-Linked Multi Meltas, 6 Multi-meltas, 18 meltaguns, and 2 combi-meltas (IIRC) in one list.

 

Or alternatively, we can take 3 TLMM, 2 CM, and 78 Multi-Meltas.

 

So...

[Brother Ambroz]

Not trying to be snippy just stating an opinion. If you want an example of how good GKs are take a look at Nurglez's battlereports. Granted he's an excellent player but still. Not saying GK is overpowered just giving an example of how good they are.

[Brother-Captain Chaere]

The GK codex can take 3 Twin-Linked Multi Meltas, 6 Multi-meltas, 18 meltaguns, and 2 combi-meltas (IIRC) in one list.

 

So...

 

But how many GK are in that list? That is a very specific build, as I stated before, no PA or TDA GK can take melta squat. Our Dreads can. Our =I= Henchman can. Our transports can. Whereas other books have Dreads, transports, and bodies. MORE bodies. More shots=greater chance of working. Period.

[jhrovii]

The GK codex can take 3 Twin-Linked Multi Meltas, 6 Multi-meltas, 18 meltaguns, and 2 combi-meltas (IIRC) in one list.

 

So...

 

But how many GK are in that list?

Don't change the topic, your point was the GK codex does not have easy access to melta weapons. In fact, the Codex can take around 90 multi-meltas. Maybe you mean we lack melta-speeders or kick-ass melta units? I'm still not sure how that makes an army uncompetitive.

 

That is a very specific build, as I stated before, no PA or TDA GK can take melta squat. Our Dreads can. Our =I= Henchman can. Our transports can. Whereas other books have Dreads, transports, and bodies. MORE bodies. More shots=greater chance of working. Period.

We don't have transports or dreads?

 

Look I think melta is best when it's mobile, on a skimmer or from another vehicle. We can do both.

[Brother-Captain Chaere]

But how many of those melta shots are hitting? It's more than just getting the guns, it's getting the guns into competent hands. Hell, Tau have some of the best infantry guns in the game, but they don't really kill too much do they?

[jhrovii]

But how many of those melta shots are hitting? It's more than just getting the guns, it's getting the guns into competent hands. Hell, Tau have some of the best infantry guns in the game, but they don't really kill too much do they?

So MeltaGEQs are Tau Firewarriors (IE, the 60-point upgrade to make the Devilfish scoring) now?

 

Twin-Linked MM's on BS4 don't hit well?

 

BS5 MM's don't hit well?

 

If you want Meltas brother, you got em. You don't need most of them though.

[Brother-Captain Chaere]

But how many of those melta shots are hitting? It's more than just getting the guns, it's getting the guns into competent hands. Hell, Tau have some of the best infantry guns in the game, but they don't really kill too much do they?

So MeltaGEQs are Tau Firewarriors (IE, the 60-point upgrade to make the Devilfish scoring) now?

 

Twin-Linked MM's on BS4 don't hit well?

 

BS5 MM's don't hit well?

 

If you want Meltas brother, you got em. You don't need most of them though.

 

Way to pick and choose what data suits your argument and throw out the rest. I was attempting to be respectful and make (what I thought) was a valid point, but :P that now. Way to drive off a new member of the forum. Dicks.

[number6]

It's getting a little heated in here. 24 hour cooling off period initiated.

 

[number6]

All right. If you folks can keep your heads this time around, I won't be forced to close the topic again. But even the slightest whiff of testiness will see me put the hammer down.

[the jeske]

You should read what Stelek is posting over on his blog (GKs are teh suck). Basically the same thing; this is probably one of his disciples.

dont lie dude he wrote that draigo wings are less balanced and have bad match ups that are a real problem to them , while razor builds or SS based armies have non . Your not going to tell me that that isnt true .

 

actualy a cortez/gk mix works better and is more balanced.

[jhrovii]

You should read what Stelek is posting over on his blog (GKs are teh suck). Basically the same thing; this is probably one of his disciples.

dont lie dude he wrote that draigo wings are less balanced and have bad match ups that are a real problem to them , while razor builds or SS based armies have non . Your not going to tell me that that isnt true .

 

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/09/grey-k...ey-competitive/

So my supposition is, are GK actually a competitive codex?

 

I’m leaning towards no.

So, you win one tournament and that validates your Codex? What an interesting idea. *looks at the Orks, laughs*

Unbalanced terrain allowed Blackmoor to hijack the scenario system and for the most part, not actually fight his opponent. Just hide and wait for the victory.

Stelek, how about Crowe purifier lists? They are more expensive, but can grab two psycannons at five men and are better than standard GK’s by a long shot in my opinion.

Greasy, sure but Crowe himself is one pile of crap.

 

 

actualy a cortez/gk mix works better and is more balanced.

Oh, look what Stelek just posted yesterday:

Coteaz

Inquisitor w/Beamer

Techmarine w/3 Servo-Skulls, Beamer

Vindicare Assassin

Venerable Dread w/2 TLAC, Psybolts

4xHenchmen, 2 ccw/lp, 4 sb, razorback w/HB, Psybolts

2xHenchmen, 7 ccw/lp, 4 sb, razorback w/HB, Psybolts

2xStormraven, TLMM, TLPC

3xDread w/2 TLAC, Psybolts

Stelek is so smart!

[nurglez]

Unbalanced terrain allowed Blackmoor to hijack the scenario system and for the most part, not actually fight his opponent. Just hide and wait for the victory.

 

Lol, playing the terrain and the mission is part of playing the game isn't it? thats like my ork opponent saying its unfair that I deploy to one side of his force so I dont fight all of it at once, or an imperial guard opponent getting annoyed because I use shunting DK's and deepstrike to get close to him.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

This strikes me as a bit of "Oh noes! A marine codex that can't do the I win meq, it's crap!".

 

Sure, Grey Knights can't zip arund the battlefield with 6 man marine melta squads in razorbacks. Grey Knights don't need to, we have different tools to overcome these problems, tools that meq-addicts don't fully understand (yet) and so because they can't play our codex properly they consider it sub-par.

 

Grey Knights are not your ordinary Astartes, we do things differently.

[Chairman_woo]

This strikes me as a bit of "Oh noes! A marine codex that can't do the I win meq, it's crap!".

 

Sure, Grey Knights can't zip arund the battlefield with 6 man marine melta squads in razorbacks. Grey Knights don't need to, we have different tools to overcome these problems, tools that meq-addicts don't fully understand (yet) and so because they can't play our codex properly they consider it sub-par.

 

Grey Knights are not your ordinary Astartes, we do things differently.

 

Pretty much this, I dont think they've realised yet that GK Razor spam can do something theirs cant i.e. get out and shoot harder than the Razorback they are in at 24" (And take assaults like a champ to boot)! And thats before we even get into S7 T/L assault cannons, fortitude and healthy numbers of psycannon....

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That list of Stelek is terribad. I playtested against this afternoon with my Draigowing and blew it off the table in five turns.

 

G :(

[breng77]

Lists depend on the player so saying you played against and beat a net list means nothing. I have seen plenty of lists similar to that one (not the same) do quite well. IT is also not a great match up against a draigo deathstar due to lack of High strength low Ap shooting.

 

That said what I have garnered from Steleks recent posts is that he was not happy with the Terrain at NOVA, because it was not the typical terrain you see at most GTs (at least those that I have attended) where one player can easily set up his units to have LOS to most of the table, and because he feels that 40k is a shooting game (and he took a shooting army) he thought that this was bad.

 

He has also been claiming a lot of people "cheating" at the NOVA, people make mistakes, he did not call them on these mistakes, hence not cheating. If he is the rules guru he claims to be he should know when people are playing rules wrong.

 

He is a very good player, who did well at the NOVA (7-1 GT I believe) and he is entitled to his opinion on GKs, from my experieince I would say that they are competitive (so long as you don't try to play them like other MEQ armies), and certainly not "broken" or "over powered" One thing I have noticed is that when you are playing pure Gks, you are relying on 2 things to happen when you shoot.

 

1.) Rolling Rends

2.) Your opponent rolling odds(or worse) for their saves.

 

In games where this happens I tend to do well. In games where my opponents make far more saves than typical the army tends to struggle a bit more.

[BrotherWasted]

You're not really relying on Rending, unless you're shooting at AV14. The point of Psycannons is to flood the enemy with wounds; Rending is just gravy on top. Even then, a stationary Psycannon at any distance is almost as good as penetrating AV14 as a Melta weapon within half range.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by your second statement.

[Archon_77]

I'm inclined to stay that Selek just can't get leafblower 1.0 out of his head, thus his continuing and complete reliance upon Coteaz. I mean, dont get me wrong here, we have an EXCELLENT HQ choice in him, but hes not the be all end all in GK HQ. Why not take a (I know more expensive) GM and make a few units score? What about libbys? If he loves shooty so much there are a couple of psychic powers that will surely help him

Because of this obsession (?) he's also appears to not even realize that other/better troop choices exist than "look at me funny and I die" henchmen.

 

I'm really struggling with his desire to completely discount psycannons as well, sure they are S7... but if you really want to be 100% shooty your probably going to spring for the psybolt ammo, and multiple psycannons in the army.. so now your rocking s8 weapondry which can handle most everything in the game, save LR's, and even then your glancing/rending on 6s. And, if you're wise you are going to throw those psycannon on Termies or Paladins so they can move and spit out four shots a turn. I've gone back and read a liltte of his past blogs and he seems to think that an army is only good if they can consistently take out land raiders/ Armor 14 models via shooting. How many times has anyone seen this lately? Whats more, how many good generals are going to be HITTING THE FRONT ARMOR of any tank? Am I really going to run into that imperial gunline head on and shoot at AV 13/12/11 front armor when I can outflank and shoot at those juicy AV 10 behinds? Heck, even volume of fire from Un-Psybolted Stormbolters can glance those to death. Selek appears to not be very familiar with the concept of flanking an opponent,and how the mobility/durability of GK's can exploit this.

 

I also struggle with the whole "melta is king" mentality many many players have. No one disputes its ability to be anti-vehicle, but its not the only way to get dudes out of boxes. See that terminator over there? He just charged with a Hammerhanded Hammer thats now S10 with three attacks. Heck, his whole unit is now hitting at S5 which will glance or pen on 5+ on most tanks. That Dreadknight is rerolling to Pen with his Greatsword, or If he took a Hammer is hitting at S10 on I4. Or the libby who just gave my whole unit another +1 str and 1d6 arpen. Oh hey, I get vehicles too, my stormraven doesnt care about your melta as it shrugs it off and dumps angry terminators/paladins in your face all the while throwing a ludicris amount of fire into whatever it chooses, including melta of its own (for free!) Laz still exists and a godhammer can be upgraded to psybolts for a measly 5 pts. (?, no codex handy) so two shots of twin linked s10 from 48". Not to mention in order to be truly effective melta has to get within 6". If Im playing anything shooty its NOT going to get that close to me, unless I've made a grievous error.

 

Finally, and here is my biggest beef, there is a definate feeling on that blog that you have to TABLE an army to win! Its a very prevalent mentality on the internets I notice, and those who do play these lists fail to realize that if they DONT table me they can't win due to sacrificing scoring for firepower. Does everyone only play annihilation? Last I checked 66% of basic missions are objective based, and locally here we play out of the battle missions book which are almost all objective based. So if a wise general sees a ton of your ultra killy boxes across the table, hes going to move his objectives out of LOS, forcing you to expose your boxes to shoot at my guys/boxes hanging out on objectives. I cannot count how many games I've won by deepstrking Termies or even lowly GKSS onto an objective on turn 4 or 5 because some blood lusted opponent had to move his units off in order to make damn sure he could shoot that terminator squad to death, only to realize too late that he can't move back in time to contest; or how many times a lowly draigo paladin has sat on my objective while I have contested every single one of my opponent's.

 

Hey, if he thinks GK aren't a viable army he's welcome to that opinion. In fact us GK players should be encouraging this mentality so that we have that element of surprise on our side. After all.. NO ONE expects the Inquisition :(.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just want to add my support about the counter stance that GKs don't need melta, and that Psycannons are great, even if all your do is suppress the enemy tanks.