Are Grey Knights Cheezy?

[BrotherWasted]

Psybolt Ammo doesn't work on Psycannons, Archon.

 

Melta is totally overrated, absolutely. Psycannons are much safer to use.

[Marid]

I've read Stelek's blog frequently for quite some time. Without going into particulars, I would say that based on the number and quality of his posts, that he genuinely likes the GK Codex. However, I think that his opinion on the codex is that it is not top-tier competitive, but still very good. Anything more I fear would be putting words in his mouth, which since he is not here to defend himself, is not fair or productive. Although, I'm sure he would be happy to discuss his posts over at yesthetruthhurts.

 

To say that GKs have no problems bringing melta is not really correct. We can bring it, yes, but not on our resilient core infantry. With mech being king, we're at a disadvantage compared to other marine lists that can have melta in spades and can outnumber us.

[breng77]

You're not really relying on Rending, unless you're shooting at AV14. The point of Psycannons is to flood the enemy with wounds; Rending is just gravy on top. Even then, a stationary Psycannon at any distance is almost as good as penetrating AV14 as a Melta weapon within half range.

 

Not even talking about vehicles but here Melta at Half Range penetrates 38.9% of the time, where as a psycannon with 4 shots (which you don't always have) is 29.6% (14.8 with 2 shots) against penetrating AV 14. The big difference for melta comes from the fact that it is AP1 so when it penetrates there is a 50% chance that it will destroy said vehicle.

 

But I was more talking about shooting at MEQ. IN order to do well you are relying on the fact that you with 1.) rend at which point they don't often have a save. 2.) Fail saves due to sheer number of wounds. This relys on your opponent rolling close to odds to do well, if your opponent rolls hot you can get into trouble.

 

I've read Stelek's blog frequently for quite some time. Without going into particulars, I would say that based on the number and quality of his posts, that he genuinely likes the GK Codex. However, I think that his opinion on the codex is that it is not top-tier competitive, but still very good. Anything more I fear would be putting words in his mouth, which since he is not here to defend himself, is not fair or productive. Although, I'm sure he would be happy to discuss his posts over at yesthetruthhurts.

 

To say that GKs have no problems bringing melta is not really correct. We can bring it, yes, but not on our resilient core infantry. With mech being king, we're at a disadvantage compared to other marine lists that can have melta in spades and can outnumber us

 

The problem with that statement is that on the internet (he is a pretty good dude in person) Stelek is very poor at discussing things he disagrees with (and often I agree with him, just not so much recently) As far as being disadvantaged due to Mech, I have to say agaisnt most Mech Gks can do pretty well with Psycannons and Dreads. AV 12 and under really drop pretty fast to GK shooting.

[BrotherWasted]

No, you're really just relying on them to fail saves. Rending is a bonus, and your scenario assumes there is no cover. If GW wanted us to rely on Rending rolls, they'd have made Psycannons rend on a 5+ or something.

 

Other Marine Armies might outnumber us, but not to the extent that our firepower is weakened because of it. Against MEQ, you are quite literally almost twice as good at shooting as they are outside 12". Marine Squads get to bring two Melta shots per squad. Two. One of which forces them to be in 12" to hit with.

 

We also have other anti-tank options available. Stelek wants GKs to play like normal Marines on crack. What a pity for him. The rest of the world has no issue with busting Land Raiders.

[breng77]

I'm not saying that GKs are weak I agree with you that they are just different. But my thought still holds that if your opponent makes their saves you will struggle against MEQ.

[BrotherWasted]

This would require him to make every save when he only has a 2/3 chance of making that save in the first place. With the sheer volume of wounds Grey Knights can inflict, Mathhammer be damned, it's more or less impossible for him to pass every save, every game.

 

Across the bigger picture, the firepower of the GK codex far exceeds the disadvantage of not having access to Melta.

 

And if shooting is giving you that much of a problem, charge them. That's what Force Weapons are for.

[Gornall]

I'm not saying that GKs are weak I agree with you that they are just different. But my thought still holds that if your opponent makes their saves you will struggle against MEQ.

 

Same thing if they make all of their cover saves against meltas.

 

Honestly, I think GKs are a very strong codex at the moment. While pyscannons are not as good at actually killing vehicles as meltas, they are far from terrible and are also good anti-infantry/MC weapons. They also are great suppression weapons, which often is all that you need. I do think the "cost" of the actual GK bodies leaves them vulnerable to alphastrikes and/or bad streaks of luck, something that the normal MSU MEQs do not have to worry about as much (as they are generally the ones doing the alphastrike). This can be mitigated somewhat through the use of Inquisition Units, but these require specific HQs, limiting flexibility.

 

I think that while GKs are very strong given the current ruleset and overall meta, the codex is somewhat limited in weapon/unit choices. This means that major changes in 6th Edition or the metagame may create serious weaknesses that may limit the number of viable GK builds. Just my opinion though. Won't stop me from playing with my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as Grey Knights)...

[Marid]

Stelek wants GKs to play like normal Marines on crack. What a pity for him. The rest of the world has no issue with busting Land Raiders.

 

This is the problem with attacking someone that is not here to defend himself. No where has Stelek said that he wants GK to play like normal space marines. The majority of the GK lists he draws up are completely unlike space marine lists and often have a strong Inquisition component. An exception might be razorback spam. He even offered a Land Raider list. Something he almost never uses elsewhere.

 

Stelek is not the most eloquent or polite of writers to put it mildly, but his insight into the game cannot be denied.

 

Back to the OP question. Are GK cheesy? I say no. When compared to other armies, they will not always have the advantage. In particular, when it comes to heavy mech lists. They are a good army, but not a game-breaking army.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Each melta is one shot. Psycannon is 4 shots. It's not rocket science.

 

G

[BrotherWasted]

Stelek wants GKs to play like normal Marines on crack. What a pity for him. The rest of the world has no issue with busting Land Raiders.

 

This is the problem with attacking someone that is not here to defend himself. No where has Stelek said that he wants GK to play like normal space marines. The majority of the GK lists he draws up are completely unlike space marine lists and often have a strong Inquisition component. The exception would be razorback spam. He even offered a Land Raider list. Something he almost never uses elsewhere.

 

Stelek is not the most eloquent or polite of writers to put it mildly, but his insight into the game cannot be denied.

 

Back to the OP question. Are GK cheesy? I say no. When compared to other armies, they will not always have the advantage. In particular, when it comes to heavy mech lists. They are a good army, but not a game-breaking army.

 

He doesn't have to be here, and he doesn't have to specifically say anything. Nor is he interested in such criticisms when people post as such on YTTH. And that's his right. I'd probably do the same thing in his shoes.

 

He sees the game as a shooting game (which it basically is), but he palms off Grey Knight shooting because they don't have access to Melta, putting Melta some imaginary pedestal. Giving Grey Knight units access to Melta weapons would in fact turn them into normal space marines on crack, if you look at how GW has taken a normal Marine and given them improved wargear when writing the GK Codex. You'd likely not be seeing them walk around with a standard Meltagun, you'd see them with some super improved version which would make all other armies cry foul. Instead, they gave us Psycannons - a weapon effective against any target, in any army.

 

I might just be throwing ideas out here, but would you like Grey Knights to have Assault 1 Multi-Meltas, or Assault 2 Meltaguns? Or even just S10 Meltaguns/Multimeltas with the normal range? I almost guarantee something like that is what GKs would get if they had access to Melta outside of =][= units.

[jhrovii]

Grey Knight shooting in the context of codex competitiveness includes =][= shooting too. Combined, one list can include over 80 Multi-Meltas. Every FOC slot has access to Multi-Meltas. Some are twin-linked. Some are master-crafted. Some are BS5. Access is not a problem. If you're looking for a directly comparable unit to meltabikes you won't find it, but that isn't a problem either. GKs have answers.

[BrotherWasted]

Agreed.

[Marid]

I might just be throwing ideas out here, but would you like Grey Knights to have Assault 1 Multi-Meltas, or Assault 2 Meltaguns? Or even just S10 Meltaguns/Multimeltas with the normal range? I almost guarantee something like that is what GKs would get if they had access to Melta outside of =][= units.

 

Personally, I like GKs just the way they are. The only complaint I have is no shotguns for war bands. But that option is so that I could run Enforcers properly and has nothing to do with GK competitiveness.

[Marid]

Grey Knight shooting in the context of codex competitiveness includes =][= shooting too. Combined, one list can include over 80 Multi-Meltas. Every FOC slot has access to Multi-Meltas. Some are twin-linked. Some are master-crafted. Some are BS5. Access is not a problem. If you're looking for a directly comparable unit to meltabikes you won't find it, but that isn't a problem either. GKs have answers.

 

Yes, but would that GK list be over-powered or cheesy? I say no, because other armies can do mech and mech-popping as well or better. A cheesy army is an army that wins without challenge. An army that wins without true competition. If you've played MTG since the golden years, you know what cheesy means.

[Archon_77]

Psybolt Ammo doesn't work on Psycannons, Archon.

 

 

Really? I take "entire unit can take psybolt ammunition" to mean just that... I dont have my codex handy, can you point out to me where this is so that I can stop being a damned dirty cheater? If I remember right in wargear it just says adds +1 str to weapon, not +1 str to bolter/stormbolter.

[Gentlemanloser]

This is the problem with attacking someone that is not here to defend himself.

 

After his blog post about one of our members who put up a list of answers the Australian GW team gave him before our FAQ was released, it should be fair game. ;)

 

(Well, not attacking, as that shouldn't be condoned anywhere, but rather discussing blog posts. As long as it doesn't break the B&Cs Policy ofc!)

 

Really? I take "entire unit can take psybolt ammunition" to mean just that... I dont have my codex handy, can you point out to me where this is so that I can stop being a damned dirty cheater? If I remember right in wargear it just says adds +1 str to weapon, not +1 str to bolter/stormbolter.

 

Unfortuneatly, the Wargear does specify what weapons it can be used with.

[Drachnon]

Psybolt Ammo doesn't work on Psycannons, Archon.

 

 

Really? I take "entire unit can take psybolt ammunition" to mean just that... I dont have my codex handy, can you point out to me where this is so that I can stop being a damned dirty cheater? If I remember right in wargear it just says adds +1 str to weapon, not +1 str to bolter/stormbolter.

 

Uhm yes it does say it only works for the following weapons:

Bolt pistol, boltgun, storm bolter, heavy bolter, hurricane bolter, auto cannon or assault cannon

Page 62 of the codex

[BrotherWasted]

Having Psybolt Ammo on Psycannons would truly make the Grey Knights broken. It would make them superior to a Melta weapon against armour.

 

Could you imagine rocking up with Purifier Squads armed with 4 of those....

[ChaosPhoenix]

Psybolt Ammo doesn't work on Psycannons, Archon.

 

 

Really? I take "entire unit can take psybolt ammunition" to mean just that... I dont have my codex handy, can you point out to me where this is so that I can stop being a damned dirty cheater? If I remember right in wargear it just says adds +1 str to weapon, not +1 str to bolter/stormbolter.

 

Uhm yes it does say it only works for the following weapons:

Bolt pistol, boltgun, storm bolter, heavy bolter, hurricane bolter, auto cannon or assault cannon

Page 62 of the codex

 

This. And I think the Psycannon already uses Psybolts, hence the name.

[breng77]

Same thing if they make all of their cover saves against meltas.

 

True, but correct me if I'm wrong but marines pretty much always have their armor saves against AP 4 weapons (unless you rend), whereas they actually need to be in cover to have a coversave. On top of which Psycannons still allow for feel no pain which is also a big deal. I'm not saying that Psycannons are bad, or that melta weapons are the best (I actually prefer psycannons as my meltas always miss). Simply that in my experience with GKs I am relying on my opponent failing saves. This is not a bad thing, as odds suggest that they will fail those saves, but I have run into games where I am simply unable to kill stuff because my opponent is rolling well. While this can be said for every army, I notice it more when you really have no AP 1 or 2 weapons.

[Archon_77]

Thanks for the heads up/ corrections. I still think my points are valid though... Psycannons and STR5 bolters are enough to cause some serious problems to most armor if your generalship is up to snuff, and if you take advantage of the better-than-most think mobility GK offer.

[BrotherWasted]

If feel no pain is such an issue, charge the enemy. You'd be surprised how well it actually works.

[Archon_77]

I really couldn't help but laugh histerically at this:

 

 

Mostly because I AM THIS GUY

[Brother Valerius]

I really couldn't help but laugh histerically at this:

 

 

Mostly because I AM THIS GUY

 

Priceless!

[breng77]

If feel no pain is such an issue, charge the enemy. You'd be surprised how well it actually works.

 

Very true, I was speaking specifically about shooting, larger squads on the charge (or specialist units, not strikes) really do pretty well in close combat.