thade Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Just want to add my support about the counter stance that GKs don't need melta, and that Psycannons are great, even if all your do is suppress the enemy tanks. +1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Grey Knight shooting in the context of codex competitiveness includes =][= shooting too. Combined, one list can include over 80 Multi-Meltas. Could you please supply a list to back this point up? I don't see how it's possible. (And if it turns out to be possible, I bet the list is crap! :lol: ) 2000 pts seems like a fair target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Without my codex in hand, I forsee an entire army of Servitors and Jokeros. I would respect anybody who collected and fielded such an army greatly, especially if it was well painted and converted. Then I would proceed to table them. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Well not sure of the points but Cotaez Kazamarov 6 x 3 MM servitors + 9 Jokero 6 Dreads with Multi meltas 3 storm ravens with Multi-meltas is 82 Multi-meltas, but I'm pretty sure it is also around 3800 points, and not even all that great, but I'm pretty sure that is the max number of multi-meltas you can fit into 1 FOC (it also uses all the slots). I know some people have missed that you can only take 3 MM servitors so that could also be the answer. I think at 2k points you probably end up with half of that or less being the max number of MMs you can field. The servitors also make those squads unreliable. The max I can fit in 2k is Cotaez 18 servitors 49 JOkero so 67 Multi meltas at 2k points. Only about half of which will fire each turn on average. It is really overkill at those things you can shoot, it lacks durability and is overall a weak list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 OK, HQ: Coteaz (100) HQ: OM/OX Inq, Combi Melta (35), or OH Inq, Inferno Pistol (35) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Joker x9 (357) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Joker x9 (357) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Joker x9 (357) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Joker x9 (357) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Heavy: Dread (115) Heavy: Dread (115) Heavy: Dread (115) Total: 3,407 OK, that's the maximum number of Melta's you can squeeze into the list, totalling; Combi-Melta: 1 Meltagun: 18 Multi Melta: 60 TL Multi Melta: 3 Total Melta Weaponry: 82 Slightly over the 2K limit! :yes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Total: 3,407 Total Melta Weaponry: 82 Slightly over the 2K limit! :P Heh. ;) That's what I thought. I've seen that "80 meltas in one list" claim multiple times now, and it's a total strawman. :yes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 A more reasonable would be; HQ: Coteaz (100) HQ: Inq (35) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3 (44) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3 (44) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3 (44) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3 (44) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3 (74) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3 (74) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Heavy: Dread (115) Heavy: Dread (115) Heavy: Dread (115) Total: 1,944 Under the 2K, with 34 Melta Weaponry. And enough to add in a single Joker! :yes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I've seen and played against IG lists very similar to this, so I can attest that they do work but are not invincible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 If you are just going with standard melta weapons youc an actually do 82 for cheaper than that (still 3312 points) HQ: Coteaz (100) HQ: OM/OX Inq, Combi Melta (35), or OH Inq, Inferno Pistol (35) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Elite: Ven Dread (175) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Troop:Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Troop: Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Fast: Stormraven, TL MM (205) Heavy: Dread (115) Heavy: Dread (115) Heavy: Dread (115) Total: 3312 And at 2k you can (although you list is probably better) You can get 74 melta weapons Cotaez Inquisitor with melta of some kind 6 x Warrior x3, Melta x3, Servitor x3, MM x3, Joker x6 (282) Dread with MM 115 Is 1942 for 72 melta weapons, that said again you run into mind lock, durability issues, range issues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Of course, but I dropped 3 Servitors from 4 units due to Mindlock, as you mention. ;) If you're using Mindlock units, you should probably cut the number of Melta Weapons from Servitors in half, to be accurate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Is 1942 for 72 melta weapons, that said again you run into mind lock, durability issues, range issues. Exactly! You simply can't field a GK list with spammed meltas. It does not work, quite obviously so. So claiming that one can spam meltas in a GK list to bolster an argument is strawmanning. The fact is, you cannot spam meltas in a GK list, even using Coteaz. You can get a nice amount of them -- a useful amount of them, a tactically important amount of them -- but nothing like what you could get out of any of the other Imperial codexes, Sisters of Battle included. Not if you want an army list worth playing, anyway. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhrovii Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I know some people have missed that you can only take 3 MM servitors so that could also be the answer. Why can one only take 3 MM servitors?... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Meltas are for the weak. Your faith in the Emperor will see you through. Now, throw up Hammerhand and MotT and charge that Land Raider like a champ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Meltas are for the weak. Your faith in the Emperor will see you through. Now, throw up Hammerhand and MotT and charge that Land Raider like a champ. STOP!! its hammer time ;) (daemon hammer that is) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Why can one only take 3 MM servitors?... IIRC, thats the limit put on servitors in a Henchmen unit. Or its the most that can have an upgraded weapon. Either way, there's a hard limit written into the unit entry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhrovii Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Why can one only take 3 MM servitors?... IIRC, thats the limit put on servitors in a Henchmen unit. Or its the most that can have an upgraded weapon. Either way, there's a hard limit written into the unit entry. Ah I see. I didn't realize that was there (I never use servitors so no harm no foul ;) ). Indeed they seem appealing if you could have say, 30 36" s5 shots. Instead it's merely 9. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Indeed they seem appealing if you could have say, 30 36" s5 shots. Instead it's merely 9. :( Given the number of S5 shots you can get in a GK list at 24", this really isn't so bad. ;) Not to mention psybolt-packing Razorbacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Why can one only take 3 MM servitors?... Because in the servitor entry it states that up to 3 servitors may replace thier servo-arm with a heavy weapon. Exactly! You simply can't field a GK list with spammed meltas. It does not work, quite obviously so. So claiming that one can spam meltas in a GK list to bolster an argument is strawmanning. not sure I agree that you cannot spam meltas with the best of them. It just should not be all that you do. Cotaez Libby (Shrouding, Might, Sanctuary, Warp Rift) 2 Venerable Dreads (MM, TLAC, Psybolts) 2 Dreads (2 x TL AC) 4 x 5 Acolytes (3 Meltas) IN Psyback 2 x 5 DCA + 4 Crusaders 2 Storm Ravens (TLMM + AC) Brings you to 1990 gives you 16 Melta weapons (not super spam but as many as plenty of marine lists run.) + Other tricks. Now certainly guard can top the number of melta weapons pretty easily, and Marins can also spam out more if they choose to, but 16 meltas is certainly not bad. The issue comes that most (12) are BS 3 so not quite so accurate as other armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 not sure I agree that you cannot spam meltas with the best of them. It just should not be all that you do. I'd agree here. :( You can happily mix in SR, Dreads and 3 man Warrior Squads (In Chims, or 2 MG Warriors in Rhinos as usual) with a GKGM for TGS to make more durable units Scoring. At 2K you could do something like; HQ: Coteaz (100) HQ: GKGM, Psycho/Rad (235) Elite: Paladin x5, Psy x2 (315) Troop: MM Servitor x2, Warrior, Rhino (64) Troop: Warrior x3, Meltagun x3, Razorback (92) Troop: Warrior x3, Meltagun x3, Razorback (92) Troop: GK Strike x5, Psy (110) Troop: GK Strike x5, Psy (110) Fast: SR (205) Fast: SR (205) Heavy: Dread, MM, H Flamer, Psyflame (130) Heavy: Dread, MM, H Flamer, Psyflame (130) Heavy: Dread, MM, H Flamer, Psyflame (130) Total: 1,918 Coteaz goes with the 2 Servitors in thier Rhino Bunker. You get two Razorbacked suicide Melta Squads, and a Pally 'retinue' for your GKGM (which makes Dreads and PAllies Scoring). You could stick the Strike in the Ravens, and even load up two Dreads if you so wished. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Back on topic, may I point out that many codecies have the ability to spam melta weapons (marines with-or-without Vulkan and IG for example) and so our codex having the same ability holds no bearing on whether or not it is "cheesy". <3 There is no cheese. There is only the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Brings you to 1990 gives you 16 Melta weapons (not super spam but as many as plenty of marine lists run.) + Other tricks. Now certainly guard can top the number of melta weapons pretty easily, and Marins can also spam out more if they choose to, but 16 meltas is certainly not bad. The issue comes that most (12) are BS 3 so not quite so accurate as other armies. I bolded the key parts. All just extensions of the point I was making. ;) And I agree: 16 meltas is not bad. But combined with all the other issues you (and I) have brought up ... can we put this to bed now? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2885784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 What I don't understand is why there are so many GK lists trying to copy Codex melta spam when the codex lists do it better? Why are people trying to make a GK list that's a copy of every other power armour list instead of using the GK advantages and creating GK lists? Have people been spamming meltas so long that they have actualy go to the point where they can not build any other kind of army? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2886086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Isn't that why so many lists take the rifleman dread? str 8 is king vs light mech, thats why missiles are so good. and why psyrifle dread's are cheese vs light vehicles :) When I write a list, my anti tank needs to be able to take care of armour some how. For my chaos and logan wing, it was melta. For my paladins, its psycannons + the great sword on my shunting dk and also daemon hammers. For my dark eldar, its blasters, dark lances and haywire grenades/blasters. Melta is lovely, don't get me wrong, but I also love psycannons. They are such fun. yes relying on 6's to penetrate/rend vs armour 13-14 isn't as good as melta, but I get so many shots I almost always penetrate my target (oo er missus). I also disagree about comparing unit costs in different codexes. Each codex has different pro's and con's, as the gods at games workshop design. On topic, I do think some grey knight builds are very powerful vs certain armies, but I'm sure that all the decent "net lists" were rather powerful until people found the best way's to beat them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2886100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 There is no cheese. There is only the Emperor. And faith in the Emperor. :P G :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2886146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 On topic, I do think some grey knight builds are very powerful vs certain armies, but I'm sure that all the decent "net lists" were rather powerful until people found the best way's to beat them. You're right, nurgs. The GK "cheese" factor will subside as people figure out how to ruin them. Lesson: Don't play cheesy net lists or an experienced opponent will know exactly how to handle your special little army. Make your own list that suits your play style to remain a mystery to your opponent- until its too late. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238762-are-grey-knights-cheezy/page/8/#findComment-2886701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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