Are Grey Knights Cheezy?

[Dark Legionnare]

I don't play any sort of "cheese" list. I originally had Psyflemen dreads but then I thought "I don't do tourney play and these will only serve to make my mates mad at me for always nuking their transports." So instead I dropped the Vindicare Assassin and psyfle dreads, got me a stormraven and a tricked out 5 man unit of paladins.

 

Usually around turn 2 those paladins get into melee with some enemy unit, and their 3 halberds make mincemeat of an SM squad with the banner and charge bonus attacks. This then usually turns into "GK are OP" followed by rage quits. I try to explain to people that if a normal marine termie squad of 5 waded into combat they'd most likely do the same damage and kills, albeit not at initiative 6. There's a lot of unnecesarry hate over GK because of the army wide force weapons and my paladins have earned me so much ire for them being "overpowered." I wonder how I would've faired sticking with my 3 psyflemen and Vindicare assassin.

 

People keep getting their knickers in a bunch over that and it's really drawing on my last nerve. I often say, "If you'd just keep fighting we'd probably draw because I don't have a lot of anti-tank firepower other than the SR and psycannons." But they're too angered and guided by their blinders of losing most of an entire unit to a 5 man squad that costs me around 300 points. Of course the 300 in termies is going to murder 120 of marines, they're geared to do damage and cost more than double of them. People can be, and usually are, illogical, childish, and ridiculous.

 

I played aginst a Draigowing with my Blood Angels towards the end of Summer. I knew what it could do, how arduous it would be to fight, but I did it anyway. And for my patience we ended up drawing. The game had me fighting tooth and nail but we had a draw and a lot of fun. There were, "Are you F-in kidding me" moments, but in the end I wasn't a poor sport and had fun for it, even pulling models off the table in droves whenever the Draigo blob touched them or shot them to pieces.

 

</rant>

[dswanick]

I think you actually make a good (unintended) arguement for []uwhy[/u] people hate on GKs.

People keep getting their knickers in a bunch over that and it's really drawing on my last nerve. I often say, "If you'd just keep fighting we'd probably draw because I don't have a lot of anti-tank firepower other than the SR and psycannons."

 

I played aginst a Draigowing with my Blood Angels towards the end of Summer. I knew what it could do, how arduous it would be to fight, but I did it anyway. And for my patience we ended up drawing. The game had me fighting tooth and nail but we had a draw and a lot of fun. There were, "Are you F-in kidding me" moments, but in the end I wasn't a poor sport and had fun for it, even pulling models off the table in droves whenever the Draigo blob touched them or shot them to pieces.

You took an army known for it's premium-quality, elite close combat-oriented assault units, from a Codex widely accepted as having superior list-building potential, and fought against your preferred army, Grey Knights which you should know inside out. And you knew going in that the fight would be difficult and you ended up squeezing out a draw. Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who thinks that a Space Marine army shouldn't "at best" struggle to draw against a force which is supposed to be specialized against Daemons, not other Space Marines. The current Grey Knights codex draws a lot of vitriol because it has the best-tier Armor Saves (3+ & 2+/5++), the best-tier Stats (4's across the board), can be as maneuverable as Eldar, have the same tier CC Initiative as Dark Eldar, and don't seem to be particular vulnerable because of a lack of bodies. So for all these advantages, what is the down-side? Short of someone who list-tailors to beat a GK/Draigo-wing army : how do all-comers lists hope to compete?

[Dark Legionnare]

I think you actually make a good (unintended) arguement for why people hate on GKs.

I can agree with me making that point unintentionally for cheesey lists, like Draigowing or psyfle spam.

 

What I'm miffed at is that my list, which I built around my dream of a GK footslogger back in 3rd Edition, catches flak for just the 5 paladins. Sure, they're an effective point sink, but they're like thunderwolves. Big weapons make them go "ow" so spread out and hit them with a Vindicator. Don't stay close and pump shots into them, they'll just move into your guys and slaughter them.

 

Paladins, for their cost, are not overpowered in the least when fieled like I have them. The SM armies I play against in my local group have at least a Vindicator each, Las cannons, melta, etc...

 

They can beat me, they just need to stick around and not run away crying because I killed 120 points of marines troops with 300ish of an elite slot terminators unit.

[number6]

Usually around turn 2 those paladins get into melee with some enemy unit

I'm sorry, but this should almost never happen. And if it does happen (see below), then it should be handled properly.

 

If I'm facing you:

 

* and you're footslogging, I would make sure to deploy far enough away that, at least initially, I am beyond the 24" reach of your guns (without at least forcing a full move out of you first). Then I would throw up roadblocks -- like Rhino/Razorback units -- that you can shoot down and eat. Over the course of 2, 3, or even more game turns. Well far away from most of my army. I would engage to destroy only if I had units full of 2+ save denying attacks that could survive for a round of power-weapon attacks. Too bad units like that don't exist. Oh wait, I guess there are TH/SS terminators, which are WAY cheaper than paladins... hmmm....

 

* or if the pallies are mounted in a land raider, I would be sure to throw up cheap vehicular roadblocks to stall the raider for 1, 2, or more turns until I can either slag the raider or have a tarpit set up to distract/absorb the paladin charge. (And If I'm playing my Tau, I'll just railgun the raider into slag and let the pallies walk all ... the ... way ... across ... the ... table.)

 

* or if the pallies are mounted in a stormraven, what happens depends on who goes first and deployment. If I go first and the stormraven is deployed, you can bet it's not going to survive my round of shooting. If my dice fail me horribly, however, I will have been smart in deployment and deployed deep into my own zone and surrounded my best assets with throwaway units. If you go first and the stormraven is deployed, I have DEFINITELY deployed deep into my zone and castled myself off. That way a potential 2nd turn charge is handled properly. If you reserve the stormraven, AWESOME! Don't move out of the deployment zone until it shows up. You now have at least 2 turns in which you have more of your army available to pound less of your opponent's army. Do so! Having played Tau for years, learning to be patient and staying put until the entire enemy army is arrayed before you is a critical skill to learn. It's one well worth learning for everybody -- Tau or not Tau -- when facing uber-deathstars like Paladins!

 

This is the thing about elite lists like Draigo. There are fewer units you have to worry about. They may be righteously awesome, but you can deal with them through superior deployment, tactical play, and simply being willing to sacrifice units and properly prioritize your threats. All you have to do is delay a Draigo/Paladin unit for a couple of turns while you throw your actual offense asymmetrically against the remainder. This is not rocket science. But most people, no matter who they face, line up as close to the enemy as possible each and every game and then drive straight at them. This is a recipe for disaster against any GK list, but especially bad against Draigowing. All it takes to change the result is to learn to be patient and actually play a tactically sound game.

[thade]

Way of the Water Warrior, people. Skirt them, kite them, feed them cheap units, block them with Rhinos, and stay the heck away. Feed them enough bolter rounds and they'll go away.

[nurglez]

.....more unbridled tactical genius in text

 

Joking aside, but this is what gets me. I spend ages looking on forums, getting ideas for lists and tactics, etc. I'm not saying I'm awesome or anything, but I have improved over the years. A regular opponent of mine plays imperial guard, and he should do better vs me. But he doesn't because he doesn't care about warhammer 40k as much as I do, and thus I beat him, and thus draigo wing is over powered.

 

Tactics start when you make your list, during set up of objectives/picking which side/turn, and end once the game has ended.

 

However, I still stand by the opinion that grey knight's are rather powerful vs certain armies and builds, yet weaker vs the daemon's that they are supposed to be fighting. Which is wrong.

[Something Wycked]

Way of the Water Warrior, people. Skirt them, kite them, feed them cheap units, block them with Rhinos, and stay the heck away. Feed them enough bolter rounds and they'll go away.

Or Lascannons. Or Multi-Meltas. Or Demolisher Cannons.

 

Also, my signature: Water Warrior. Read it, love it. ;)

[thade]

I think GK would do very well against Demons; considering I do well against them with vanilla marines. GK have psuedo-force weapon powers that work on them, and Demons are the one solid use case for psilencers. Not to mention 24" range S5 storm bolter volleys...those 5++ saves won't do them that much good. ;)

 

Have people actually been having trouble GK vs Demons? I have a feeling they will do just fine...not OP but not weak either.

[dswanick]

Agreed...

Agreed...

And, agreed... ;)

[number6]

A regular opponent of mine plays imperial guard, and he should do better vs me. But he doesn't because he doesn't care about warhammer 40k as much as I do, and thus I beat him, and thus draigo wing is over powered.

You don't need internet forums to get better at playing a wargame.

 

40K is a wargame, after all. (It's also more than that, but at the end of the day, if you're putting models on a terrained table and rolling dice, you're playing a wargame.)

 

If you don't care to learn how to improve your tactical acumen, fine. Nothing wrong with beer-n-pretzels dicefests! :) (I go for them quite often myself. Sometimes, you just want to kill things and explode things, yes? ;) ) But if you don't care to learn, then I think you forfeit any right to complain about "codex creep", "cheese", and "overpowering combos". Those are opinions not based in reality.

[Meatman]

I think some of the main reasons people think GKs are cheesy are not the codex itself, but certain items that are unnecessarily over powered.

 

Examples are:

 

 

Psychotroke grenades

Grenades that can easily render ANY unit in combat with your units utterly useless on the simple roll of a dice. Completely not needed at all, and the codex would not have suffered in any way without them.

 

Rad grenades

Another one that is a little harsh. With hammerhand you're already +1Strength, is there really any need to make the poor guy you hit -1T as well?

 

Frag and krak grenades on paladins

One of the main setbacks of terminator armour (besides being unable to sweeping advance) is the lack of assault grenades for assaulting through cover. This is consistent through all other marine codexis (as far as 5ed goes), so why decide to remove a major downside to make a powerful unit have even less disadvantages? (Ok, this one not so much, but you get my point)

 

Initiative 6 force weapons

I'll say it again. Initiative. 6. Force. Weapons.

Which can be used multiple times per assault phase.

Initiative. 6. Force. Weapons.

 

Initiative 6 weapons are powerful

Initiative 6 weapons at strength 5 are very powerful

Initiative 6 weapons at strength 5, which also ignore armour are broken

Initiative 6 weapons at strength 5, which ignore armour, can be used as a force weapon almost unlimited times, with no risk to the model using them are ridiculous. I think this is the main killer when it comes to the "GK aren't cheesy" argument.

 

 

Seriously, just a few little changes would have made it so much nicer to play against.

 

I just want to verify: I do not dislike the GK codex or the people that chose to play it, there are just little things that could have changed that really aren't necessary.

[thade]

I don't mean to pick on you, Meatman...but these things you list are not that bad. They are just different. They are, admittedly, very bad for you if you play into their strengths...but non-issues if you don't.

 

Psychotroke grenades

These guys are awesome...if you get into melee. They either come on a tough and expensive model (Brother Captain, GM) or an easy to kill model (Techmarine)...both of which can be singled out in melee if you get into melee. Saying these things are over-powered is like saying Hammernators are overpowered. How do you deal with Hammernators? Stay out of assault and shoot the crap out of them, right? Treat these guys much the same way.

 

Rad grenades

Again, either on an expensive tough model or a crappy one (now including Inquisitors that can at best wear power armor with these grenades in hand). -1T is rough...but then then again, why are you in melee? If you're going to charge a GK unit, you'd best be fully aware of what you're getting into. Otherwise, plan on losing. Personally, if I charge a GK unit, it's because I've already put so many bolter rounds into them that nothing they have in there is really an issue.

 

Frag and krak grenades on paladins

One of the main setbacks of terminator armour (besides being unable to sweeping advance) is the lack of assault grenades for assaulting through cover.

I seldom see this as an issue for assault terminators in any codex, because either they're charging out of a LR-variant with Assault Launchers, or they're going at I1 anyway. What do Hammernators care?

 

Initiative 6 force weapons

These don't scare me one bit. They cost them big in points, meaning I outnumber them. Nasty in assault = do not assault them unless you know you're going to win.

 

Every single one of those points are a problem if you charge in blindly; they are non-issues if you deny flank, kite, interrupt, buddy up your units, and play smart.

[Something Wycked]

... Words of a Water Warrior master...

[thade]

I wish that was true, haha.

[greatcrusade08]

Psychotroke grenades

These guys are awesome...if you get into melee. They either come on a tough and expensive model (Brother Captain, GM) or an easy to kill model (Techmarine)...both of which can be singled out in melee if you get into melee. Saying these things are over-powered is like saying Hammernators are overpowered. How do you deal with Hammernators? Stay out of assault and shoot the crap out of them, right? Treat these guys much the same way

 

Rad grenades

Again, either on an expensive tough model or a crappy one (now including Inquisitors that can at best wear power armor with these grenades in hand). -1T is rough...but then then again, why are you in melee? If you're going to charge a GK unit, you'd best be fully aware of what you're getting into. Otherwise, plan on losing. Personally, if I charge a GK unit, it's because I've already put so many bolter rounds into them that nothing they have in there is really an issue.

 

Frag and krak grenades on paladins

One of the main setbacks of terminator armour (besides being unable to sweeping advance) is the lack of assault grenades for assaulting through cover.

I seldom see this as an issue for assault terminators in any codex, because either they're charging out of a LR-variant with Assault Launchers, or they're going at I1 anyway. What do Hammernators care?

 

Initiative 6 force weapons

These don't scare me one bit. They cost them big in points, meaning I outnumber them. Nasty in assault = do not assault them unless you know you're going to win.

 

Every single one of those points are a problem if you charge in blindly; they are non-issues if you deny flank, kite, interrupt, buddy up your units, and play smart.

 

im gunna play devils advocate here and disagree with alot of your rebuttles.

hammernators are very killable in assault, trust me i do it alot, send in enough shots and attacks and youll kill them off.. assault is very initiative driven and hammers work against them.

GK dont have that quibble, becuase nine times out of ten they hit first in assault.. you cant compare GK paladins to hammerantors, because pallies are lethal even in reduced numbers

also can you stay out of assault the whole game? ... No! assault happens eventually.. in the mean time all those S5 storm bolters and psycannons are beating you at the <24" shooting game.

 

i do consider myself a water warrior (more steam than water at times, but everyones mileage varies) and every game is a balance of shooting and assault.

to me it seems that draigowing wins at assault against 99% of lists and usually wins at the small arms and <24" shooting.. therefore unless your list has lots of lascannons, melta and vindies your pretty much at a disadvantage.

 

i actually agree with meatmans points tbh.. and its not necessarily to do with draigowing

Put it this way, normal GK units are beatable even with force weapons with stackable hammerhands, storm bolters and the occasional halberd.. hell ive beaten halberd units with cc scouts.. the fact is with only one attack base they arent that scarey, sure youll lose one or two chaps on the way in at I6 but you stand a good chance of winning combat (note i faced a 5 man squad with halberds with 5 cc scouts with fist), now take a ten man GK unit give them a smattering of halberds, they are difficult but not impossible to beat, and give them psycotrope greandes via whatever HQ choice.. it essentially renders thier close combat weakness null and void..

that to me is over powered and unneccesary in a game with fixed quantities..

and thats a good example of the majority of my arguments, if it were just the stats you had to face the games would be very diffcult but not nearly impossible.. GK have the stats of super marines, paladins are good examples, those that are basic marines have better wargear.. but they pay for it..

hence good balance IMO

 

however the little added extras is what poisons people against them IMO.. grenades that eradicate any chance of the enemy beating you in combat, not nearly an easy feat against GK anyway.

brain mines that prevent enemy HQs from fighting at all (ive been there, not fair at all), psychic powers like sanctuary that are a complete joke to the games balance.. rad grenades which i put on par with dantes abilities.. to me it goes against the games balance to mess with an enemies stat line, but ontop of that they ahve stackable strenght bonuses aswell.

so in some cases its S+2 and enemies T-1, give them the GKGM bonus of re-rolls of ones to wound and every hit (usually on 3s) will become wounds.. with I6 force weapons thats completely nuts

 

thats my 0.02, stasline and rules wise GK are hard, a good challeneg, but the added extras is what brings the pain, thats what most people hate

[thade]

im gunna play devils advocate here and disagree with alot of your rebuttles.

I'm in. <3

 

hammernators are very killable in assault, trust me i do it alot, send in enough shots and attacks and youll kill them off.. assault is very initiative driven and hammers work against them.

So, you willing charge a full unit of Hammernators with an assault-kitted squad? I do too, actually...but if I haven't already worn them down with rapid-fire, I accept that I'll lose some or all of the unit(s) I'm throwing at them. However, if I can help it, I shoot the crap out of them and I stay away. I fail to see how this same simple tactic will not avail against Paladins...especially given how few they will be. If they're foot-slogging, it's not that bad. If they have Storm Ravens or Land Raiders, awesome: there are significantly less Paladins for it. Ground their rides, like you do.

 

also can you stay out of assault the whole game? ... No! assault happens eventually.. in the mean time all those S5 storm bolters and psycannons are beating you at the <24" shooting game.

Nope, which is where the Rhinos and sacrificial units come in. Flank them: if they want an assault, they should be charging in a direction that's to your liking rather than the Paladin-player's liking. Creative placement of your own models can limit how valuable an assault (and subsequent Consolidation move) will be to them.

 

therefore unless your list has lots of lascannons, melta and vindies your pretty much at a disadvantage.

Every list I field has me at a disadvantage. Just me though. People keep telling me to bite the bullet and field some DC and some SG...but I refuse.

 

Dark Eldar scare me more than GK - even Paladins - because they're more numerous, fast-moving, and hit at least as hard on the charge. I've dealt with DE by denying flanks, supporting my units, playing bait-and-switch games, and the like. No game against a good opponent or a good list is easy: combine them together and it's uphill, no matter how you cut it. Are they dead hard? Absolutely. Are they unfair and unbeatable? No, they are neither. Both DE and GK are beatable, while both have some really nasty stuff. I have my own nasty stuff. My marines can soak a stupid amount of small arms fire thanks to 3+ w/ FNP. My Rhinos are Fast. My Librarians can be S10. I can Deep Strike my Land Raider. GK are not broken; they are different and new. The real advantage they have is that they're not a well-known codex yet; they're new and not nearly the known quantity that Space Marines are.

 

You can take them, GC08. I know you can.

[Seahawk]

That's what I've found too. Extra equipment is what wins me the games more often than standard troops. I'll happily assault a GK unit, as most of the time one can handily win with most other units...provided it's not backed up with grenades. People cry sadness and cheese at the grenades more than anything else in my lists, which is why I usually leave them out when playing friendly games.

 

Alternatively, I'll happily assault bigger units with my MSU GK squads, simply because they do have the tricksy grenades. I tend to stand an extremely good chance at winning any close combat with 'em.

[thade]

Do you know what standard GK units do not like? Mephiston. Nothing is funnier than charging into a six man Purifier squad and wiping the floor with them before they have a chance to swing a single fancy Nemesis Force Shenanigan. I6? Pfft.

 

That's just my personal solution though. I'd also pit Mephiston against any IC carrying grenades (Meph goes first and will ID them on a single failed save, since he's S10 when he's angry).

 

There is no cheese. You've got something in your kit that can deal with these grenades. Pound them off the table with Vindicators. Trip them up with Thunderfire and Tank Shocking Rhinos. Nip at the giant's heels as he slogs around and he will go down to your slings.

[greatcrusade08]

i thought GK have psyk grendes, which means mephy hits on I1 if they charge him?

bascially means mephy is only useful If he gets the charge off

[number6]

Grenades are not available in many places. Even a local player, hardcore into Thawn and grenade caddies, can't field more than 2 units with grenades in his 2000 pts list.

 

And unlike Mephiston, Draigo and paladins -- with or without an additional character charying pshochotrokes -- cannot fly. Let them punch apart as many rhinos and chimeras and razorbacks as they like.

 

Run one of those vehicles right up into their face. As in 1" away if you can manage it. (Tank shock is even better.) Let them punch the tank to pieces on their turn. Or shoot it apart; makes only a little difference (but you did pop smoke, right, to lessen that chance? you'd prefer they assault it, after all ... so you've traveled more than 6" and popped smoke to lessen their odds quite a bit...). Then let your little 5-man unit spill out, take a few meaningless pot shots and hope to score a lucky wound ... AND STAY PUT. Let them get killed in the next turn in whatever way Draigowing sees fit.

 

Look what you just did. You willingly sacrificed just one of your units -- about 150-ish (maybe 200 if you overspent) pts of your models -- to fully occupy upwards of 500 pts of enemy deathstar for two whole turns.

 

Wow. Those paladins sure are impressive, aren't they? :)

 

And if your GK opponent doesn't take the bait, their only choice is to run around your block, thus slowing their advance considerably.

 

You're not running Draigowing; you've got twice as many units has he does. You can totally afford to throw away units like this all game long. How many threats can that Draigowing list actually generate? You're occupying 25% or more of the list with just one of your units. So how threatened are you ... really? How afraid of those psycho grenades should you be ... really?

[thade]

i thought GK have psyk grendes, which means mephy hits on I1 if they charge him?

bascially means mephy is only useful If he gets the charge off

Meph can move as JI (12" a turn), and is Fleet.

 

He will get the charge off. :)

 

Also...everything number6 said.

 

...ever.

[Meatman]

i thought GK have psyk grendes, which means mephy hits on I1 if they charge him?

bascially means mephy is only useful If he gets the charge off

 

Or is charged. Most affect assaulting and being assaulted.

 

As to how I deal with regular TH+SS terminators? Massed small arms fire and >I1 combat attacks.

I pistol and mass close combat attacks with multiple units to throw as many I4 attacks as I can at them before they can swing.

 

 

Mute point, as terminators can be taken down with massed regular attacks. 2 wounds and the option of feel no pain, plus possible grenades that make my units worse then useless = I'm not going anywhere near them in combat if I can help it. 20 wounds + character + possible feel no pain + possible 3+ cover most of the time = even massed lascannon spam bounces off.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know cost.

 

Thade, you should know it's easier said then done "keeping out of assault". You talk about feeding units and retreating like they are the only things in the army. Strength 8 riflemen dreads = no vehicles to block them when they get close. Denied flanks when trying to hold objectives? Tell me how that goes.

 

I'm not asking for tips on beating GK, or specifically draigowing as that is becoming more popular then all the current "net lists" combined, and seems to be what every GK player under the sun is going for now; I've beaten them with my "inferior" vanilla codex space marines in a tournament setting, so please don't treat me like I've never played them before.

 

 

Then let your little 5-man unit spill out, take a few meaningless pot shots and hope to score a lucky wound ... AND STAY PUT. Let them get killed in the next turn in whatever way Draigowing sees fit.

 

Look what you just did. You willingly sacrificed just one of your units -- about 150-ish (maybe 200 if you overspent) pts of your models -- to fully occupy upwards of 500 pts of enemy deathstar for two whole turns.

 

Wow. Those paladins sure are impressive, aren't they? :)

 

And if your GK opponent doesn't take the bait, their only choice is to run around your block, thus slowing their advance considerably.

 

Yup, because paladins are the only units on the table. Aforementioned strength 8 riflemen, and strength 7 assault cannons can't kill rhinos before they get in your face. Surrounding the rhino before destroying it is also something the GK will likely do, so your 5 man unit doesn't even get to disembark. So no, not 2 turns wasted. 1 if you are lucky, 0 if not.

 

Because hey, riflemen are never used by anyone anywhere, so they had to give them a boost so they would be slightly viable. /sarcasm

 

 

Ok, I know this has come across very confrontational but I am not trying to dig at anyone.

[nurglez]

I do wish I could have played you at return of kthulu meatman, would have been interesting (I hope).

 

He is right though. I support my paladins with DK's, other people go for dread's and what not. All the toys together are cheesy, mainly because like lash, they mess with the norm. We're used to minus 1 attack, or reduced WS. But doubling str then adding was the norm, and toughness was sacred. Now nothing is sacred at all!

[thade]

i thought GK have psyk grendes, which means mephy hits on I1 if they charge him?

bascially means mephy is only useful If he gets the charge off

Or is charged. Most affect assaulting and being assaulted.

Psyk-outs (the ones that force you at I1) only work when the GK charge. I've killed like several dozen Purifiers with Mephiston now. I'm getting good at it. <3

 

As to how I deal with regular TH+SS terminators? Massed small arms fire and >I1 combat attacks.

I pistol and mass close combat attacks with multiple units to throw as many I4 attacks as I can at them before they can swing.

Will work against most GK units as well. Paladins will require much more softening. ;) But what do you expect for 60+ points per model? Scared of I6? I don't blame you. Shoot them even more and charge in far later.

 

Thade, you should know it's easier said then done "keeping out of assault". You talk about feeding units and retreating like they are the only things in the army. Strength 8 riflemen dreads = no vehicles to block them when they get close. Denied flanks when trying to hold objectives? Tell me how that goes.

It goes very well, actually. To win an objective match, I need ONE objective and to prevent my opponent from controlling two or more: this means kill or contest a lot of stuff. It's really the value behind Rhinos, especially when they're empty. You probably do this yourself.

 

...so please don't treat me like I've never played them before.

I did say I didn't mean to pick on you; your points were fears I've heard echoed on the board before and I've had time to both consider and, more recently, confront them myself. GK are a great codex, but they are not broken: that's my message here. In particular, their grenades are not broken.

 

Then let your little 5-man unit spill out, take a few meaningless pot shots and hope to score a lucky wound ... AND STAY PUT. Let them get killed in the next turn in whatever way Draigowing sees fit.

 

Look what you just did. You willingly sacrificed just one of your units -- about 150-ish (maybe 200 if you overspent) pts of your models -- to fully occupy upwards of 500 pts of enemy deathstar for two whole turns.

 

Wow. Those paladins sure are impressive, aren't they? :)

 

And if your GK opponent doesn't take the bait, their only choice is to run around your block, thus slowing their advance considerably.

 

Yup, because paladins are the only units on the table. Aforementioned strength 8 riflemen, and strength 7 assault cannons can't kill rhinos before they get in your face. Surrounding the rhino before destroying it is also something the GK will likely do, so your 5 man unit doesn't even get to disembark. So no, not 2 turns wasted. 1 if you are lucky, 0 if not.

 

Because hey, riflemen are never used by anyone anywhere, so they had to give them a boost so they would be slightly viable. /sarcasm

 

Ok, I know this has come across very confrontational but I am not trying to dig at anyone.

I'm talking Empty Rhinos. They can't throw up a strength-increasing power for Death or Glory, meaning they can risk a 2w model with a hammer on a S8 hit to stop it, or they can just take the Ld check and step aside...now with an annoying Rhino the unit has to slog around. They don't get consolidate moves from popping a vehicle...and if they do pop it, those big fat bases have to walk over it (risking terrain hits) or around it (which takes more time). They are few, they are slow, they are fat.

 

Since when do Rhinos survive more than two turns on the table anyway? ;) Rhinos dying fast is not new with the advent of the GK book.

[number6]

Yup, because paladins are the only units on the table. Aforementioned strength 8 riflemen, and strength 7 assault cannons can't kill rhinos before they get in your face. Surrounding the rhino before destroying it is also something the GK will likely do, so your 5 man unit doesn't even get to disembark. So no, not 2 turns wasted. 1 if you are lucky, 0 if not.

 

Because hey, riflemen are never used by anyone anywhere, so they had to give them a boost so they would be slightly viable. /sarcasm

But how many of those "other" units are you actually fielding? 1/4 or more of your points are tied up into pallie deathstar land.

 

The typical Draigowing list I see has no more than 3 non-infantry units in it. That means either 3 dreads, or 3 dreadknights, or some mix of both.

 

Well, if my list has 14 vehicles -- or more -- at the same army points level ... it honestly doesn't matter if you destroy a vehicle every single game turn with every single unit you shoot with (a near statistical impossibility considering smoke launchers and vehicles giving each other cover). As I've stated numerous times, you just don't generate enough threats. Even the most amazing shooting offensive output you can generate simply can't do enough damage to stop my army from stalling you as long as I want. Even if we provide you with twice as many non-Paladin threats -- shooting threats to stop my tactics -- even somewhat above average shooting results from your army cannot stop me from dictating where/when the paladins will get to play. You simply don't have enough sources of shooting offense.

 

I feed 1 or 2 units to Draigo, 90% of my army goes after your psyflemen (or whatever). This kind of asymmetric warfare does not bode well for Draigowing....