Pondering big guns

[Lifeguard]

So, as I come to look at this game a little more, and the Space Marines in particular, I find myself looking at several different options. Originally, I wanted to base a list from a large Terminator force led by Lysander, as a "Death Star" unit. Then I checked out the Black Templars, and although they've got some cool concepts, several members of the BT camp came straight out and said, "learn Codex: Space Marines first, before you try a specialty chapter(BT, BA, DA, GK, SW, etc.)." So I'm checking out the Imperial Fists and the Crimson Fists again, with more emphasis on the former. And the idea of a siege army is very appealing. There are a couple of different things that really stand out for me with an army like this.

 

The first are the big guns. Vindicators, primarily. A quick glance over these things tells me, based on what I've read here, to take a pair, equip with siege shields, and expect them to draw a lot of attention. Now they've obviously got a lot of killing power, and AV13 on the front suggests that they're pretty tough if you can guard their flanks.

 

Next would be the artillery pieces: the Whirlwind and the Thunderfire Cannon. As I scan the lists posted and the tactical articles, I find very little mention of these things. What gives? At 85 points, the Whirlwind seems like a relatively inexpensive anti-horde machine. And for another 15 points for the Thunderfire, which looks like a great gun(and a really cool model), you get a freebie Techmarine(another thing that seems to only appear rarely on lists). Why don't we see these things included in more lists? Are they simply good-looking on paper, but underwhelming and/or difficult to utilize effectively on the table?

 

Right now, I've put together a list that runs 1775 points bare(without any upgrades). That leaves 225 to kit out the force. It's a big group, 69 infantry with 4 Rhinos, 2 tanks, and a Thunderfire Cannon. Initially, I wanted to include the Thunderfire because it's a cool model, and 100 points for a Techmarine with a giant gun seems like a pretty good investment. However, I'm a little put off as very few seem to use them, and the few opinions I found are all very conflicting.

 

I know this isn't the army list forum, but I've given a list here to explain my thinking.

 

HQ - Captain(100)

Elite - 7x Sternguard w/ Rhino(210)

Troops - 10x Sniper Scouts(140)

Troops - 10x Tactical Marines w/ Rhino(205) x3(615)

Fast Attack - 10x Assault Marines(190) x2(380)

Heavy Support - 2x Vindicator(230)

Heavy Support - Thunderfire(100)

 

So I figure the Vindicators form my vanguard, advancing to find mid-field cover and acting as an AV13 shield until my Assault Squads can find someone to chew on. The snipers set up with a field of fire that compliments the Thunderfire for area denial(hopefully this area can work in coordination with the defence of a home objective). The 3 Tac Squads are advancing, supporting/supported by the Vindicators and the Assault Squads, to claim/contest objectives and deny movement to my opponent. The Sternguard and Captain are a mid-field supporter, thanks to Sternguard shooting, I thought about giving the Sergeant some CC gear to bolster the unit in event of assault. I think the whole thing could castle up in the event of a close-combat swarm, with enough firepower to lay back and shoot, and with 20 or so dedicated counter-assaulters, could hold it's own. It has some ranged(a little) shooting, some(more) close-range firepower, and some assault potential. With some points left over to sprinkle lascannons to the Tacticals for extra ranged punch, and share the melta love with some Tacticals and Sternguard for some close-range tank hate.

 

In this instance, does the Thunderfire serve my purpose, or is it just theory and wishful thinking? I considered changing it out with some Typhoon Speeders, but the fluff element there didn't quite satisfy me.

 

The base question here is, "Are the Thunderfires/Whirlwinds rarely seen for good reason?"

 

I'd like to hear from some experienced players who have fielded these and Vindicators, especially in tandem, and what their strengths/limitations are. Also, what units they synergize well with.

 

Any help is appreciated.

[Paulochromis]

use the supplied siege shield piece of kit as a dozer blade. siege shield isn't worth the extra points.

if you want guns, you could consider 5x5man tact with bolter-backs or 4x5man with plasma- or lazor-backs instead.

i would also recommend a pair of typhoons instead of the second assault squad.

[Paulochromis]

double post

[Gunslinger87]

Whirlwinds arent used as often mainly because there are only 3 heavy support choices and most armies are maxed out on Land Raiders and Predators (and the likes of Long Fangs in other dexes etc). Were it a FA choice (which I know wouldnt make sense, but bear with me) we would probably see more of them. Generally, Ive noticed that SM armies most often leave the FA slots unfilled, but it may be just my perception.

[Ming]

Learned the hard way over the years:

 

Whirlwind: In the base game is pretty lame. Compare it at 85 points vs a landspeeder typhoon at 90. Both have the same range, but the typhoon lays out more dakka with better expected accuracy. Only benefit for a whirlwind is that it can fire indirect (its purpose). In the next SM codex in some far flung future: HOPE that whirlwind range is 72", and can fire more like a manticore, or lay out different missile variants. NOTE - GW seems to change vehicle stats between SM codex versions, so who knows?

 

Thunderfire: It is one of the hidden jewels in the SM codex. The reason you do not see it more is because of modeling issues and price. If the price comes down and the model goes all plastic, expect to see more people using them. I wish I had the model, as I'd use it! It does everything you wish the whirlwind could do: long range, multiple fire modes, a great deal at 100 points. Compare to a typhoon and you would want the thunderfire. In the next SM codex in some far flung future: HOPE that we get Thudd Guns too! And AAA!

 

Vindicator: Suffers from fragility. For 115 points you get a large blast template that in the current meta may never get a chance to fire. Siege shield is a waste of points, same as dozer blade, unless you like to drive trough terrain, and your table is all terrain. Known for its uncanny ability to deviate off target. Best benefit: one of the few things that causes real fear. In the next SM codex in some far flung future: HOPE that it goes back to its roots, that any hits on the siege shield either give the vehicle a cover save OR would reduce the AP value of any hits on the shield (similar mechanic to a stormraven's armor). In prior editions you could even have POTMS. Really.

 

See my blog for meanderings about games and tactics for any crimson-fist-like army disguised as Ultramarines Third Co...

[ShinyRhino]

Thunderfire Cannons are wonderful, so long as they're not the only threat the opponent is being faced with. I have run one alongside my bike army in the past (plus two Whirlwinds as well!). The bikers have the speed to press and harass the enemy early on. The things that would bother the Thunderfire like lascannons and missiles have to decide whether they take on the short-range harassing unit that can break down the lines early, or take out that long-range firepower that's plinking away but has the potential to be devastating. Because it's so easy to hide the Cannon and Techmarine in cover, it become harder to kill by half, often leading to it being ignored early. That allows it to rack up hits and kills turn after turn. The four blasts at BS4 can really rock a clustered unit. Say, a squad that was just blown out of its transport by your close-range firepower? I once racked up 24 hits with one volley of Cannon shots on a Grey Hunters squad. They died.

I've also immobilized Monoliths and Land Raiders with Tremor shells. Bad luck from my opponent's dice, but game-changing regardless.

 

Whirlwinds need to be taken in force to be useful. Two is enough. One is a bad idea. Three eats a lot of Heavy slots. A pair of Whirlwinds can cover the entire board when properly deployed. Deepstrike armies like Daemons HATE Whirlwinds. All their large units are T4 or T3, so the S5 hits wound reliably and their crappy saves make for lots of dead troop models. Armies with lower Leadership values aren't fans either, because of the Pinning tests at -1 to Ld value from the Ordnance Barrage rules.

 

In your case, I'd go with the Thunderfire instead of the Whirlwind. The Vindicators are solid close-range units, and you have enough bolters and such to pour on the fire. Priority one is to crack transports so the blast templates can start flying. The only time the Thunderifre will fail you is in Dawn of War deployments. It's slow, and has a hard time getting into cover because of the dangerous terrain tests that can kill it instantly.

[Tranc]

Whirlwind: In the base game is pretty lame. Compare it at 85 points vs a landspeeder typhoon at 90. Both have the same range, but the typhoon lays out more dakka with better expected accuracy.

Whirlwinds aren't that bad compared to Typhoons IMO. I think 1 large template is better than 2 small templates. The Typhoon has the heavy bolter which adds 1-3 hits, but the Whirlwind can fire indirect. My Whirlwind is been a very successful contributor in games against IG, Eldar & Tau.

 

I think the thing that gives Typhoons an edge is that they can switch to krak missiles for anti-armor action, whereas the Whirlwind is a dedicated anti-infantry weapon. However, let's not forget that Whirlwind hits pin (at -1 leadership because of ordinance barrage).

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Originally, I wanted to base a list from a large Terminator force led by Lysander, as a "Death Star" unit. Then I checked out the Black Templars, and although they've got some cool concepts, several members of the BT camp came straight out and said, "learn Codex: Space Marines first, before you try a specialty chapter(BT, BA, DA, GK, SW, etc.)."

 

Who said such a thing?

[Laughingdagger]

Originally, I wanted to base a list from a large Terminator force led by Lysander, as a "Death Star" unit. Then I checked out the Black Templars, and although they've got some cool concepts, several members of the BT camp came straight out and said, "learn Codex: Space Marines first, before you try a specialty chapter(BT, BA, DA, GK, SW, etc.)."

 

Who said such a thing?

 

 

If anything learning C:SM before C:BT would confuse you way more. Straight BT is fine.

[Grey Mage]

Agreed- so many differences in the playstyle of the basic units, your better off taking what you want to go with and well... going with it.

 

Also: Whirlwinds are the bomb. Literally. It is an eternal sadness to Dorn that his Black Templar children seem to have left theirs at home.

[Excubitor]

Also: Whirlwinds are the bomb. Literally. It is an eternal sadness to Dorn that his Black Templar children seem to have left theirs at home.

 

^ This. My Whirlwinds ALWAYS get their points back. Throw a Vindicator, Terminator Assault Squad or any number of more recognised 'killy' units for people to concentrate on, and those 2 little rocket pods hiding in the back just somehow escape attention.

 

It's gotten to the point where, the other day, someone let me get my Vindicator and LRC with Assault Terminators and Vulkan in their face to stop the Whirlwinds blowing holes in his IG. And always remember you can fire them directly, I find my whirlwinds do some of their best work when they're mobile and moving up with the entire mech force.