Does the Culexus's gun only work with Henchmen Psykers?

[thade]

Original discussion here.

 

The question in the subject arose recently in an OI thread. The poster there believes that the Culexus's weapon only gains +1 attack if in range of Henchmen Psykers and that it gains no benefit from nearby GK units (with Brotherhood of Psykers), Librarians, or enemy psykers (e.g. Farseers, Sorcerers, etc.).

 

The stance seems to be purely that 'Psyker' is capitalized in the Henchmen psyker entry as well as the weapon's description, and reportedly no where else. No codex in hand (as is always the case for work) so I'm short on anything more than o_O for a response.

 

Have at it!

[Seahawk]

A psyker is a psyker; it doesn't matter what its unit name is.

 

Capitalization means nothing. In English, words are capitalized at the start of a sentence, as well as other proper nouns, and sometimes incorrectly. In German, all nouns are capitalized (iirr). Since it can (and does) change from language to language, it cannot be used as a valid argument. Otherwise, the English version would only be able to use henchmen, while the German version can use any psykers in the codex. That's just plain wrong.

[Morticon]

... so I'm short on anything more than o_O for a response.

 

 

O_o ?!?

 

I'm filing this one in my brain under the 3rd/4th ed "Terminators dont wear terminator armour" style argument - right next to the "Simple Jack" folder.

[breng77]

It seems like the argument for it only working with henchman is as follows.

 

1.) The word is capatalized.

2.) The rule does not say psykers (see pg. x in the BRB).

 

My answer to that would be

1.) GW screws up editing all the time so infering anything from capitalization is folly. IN addition the Psyker special rule is capitalized in the BRB (and in the SM codex, and in Brotherhood of Psykers.)

 

2.) Codicies do not state page numbers/refer people to the BRB for every rule in the rule book. If a model is listed as infantry how do I know what that means, I go to the BRB, same with USRs. In addion in other places where the GK book mentions Pyskers (such as in unit entries) it does not refer to the BRB does this mean my Grand Master is really a Psyker henchman. Further of note, as far as I can tell the Psyker henchmen don't have the Psyker special rule (at least in the only copy of the dex I have at work which is I think the leaked copy), so does that mean then that they cannot use their psychic power, since they are not Psykers?

[NuclearMessiah]

The question in the subject arose recently in an OI thread. The poster there believes that the Culexus's weapon only gains +1 attack if in range of Henchmen Psykers and that it gains no benefit from nearby GK units (with Brotherhood of Psykers), Librarians, or enemy psykers (e.g. Farseers, Sorcerers, etc.).

 

 

I agree with Thade in this regard and I think any other beleif is an attempt to read into the rules a bit to much. But if yperihitikos still stands by his belief here is my suggestion, Games Day UK is coming up and Mat Ward is usaully present singing autographs, someone ask him what his intent was with the rule. Just a thought and tnamk to everyone who answered my question.

[breng77]

And of course there is the whole

 

You are likely only going to see the Culexus in friendly games (most tournament lists I have seen don't have assasins other that the Vindicare). at which point why are you trying to rules lawyer this one.

[NuclearMessiah]

And of course there is the whole

 

You are likely only going to see the Culexus in friendly games (most tournament lists I have seen don't have assasins other that the Vindicare). at which point why are you trying to rules lawyer this one.

 

 

Agreed, they dont seem very useful overall. I am likely to use the Vindicare often and perhaps the Callidus and Eversor from time to time for laughs.

[jeffersonian000]

Wow, I never noticed it before, but the special rule under Animus Speculum does specify "Pyskers", and not "psykers", which would imply that its the Psyker Inquisitorial henchmen that is being referenced and not psykers in general. Interesting, espesially because Psykers count individually as psykers unlike GK squads which count as a single psyker. A Culexus could literally have an Assault 74 weapon in a Corteaz/Battle-Psyker list.

 

SJ

[thade]

Wow, I never noticed it before, but the special rule under Animus Speculum does specify "Pyskers", and not "psykers", which would imply that its the Psyker Inquisitorial henchmen that is being referenced and not psykers in general. Interesting, espesially because Psykers count individually as psykers unlike GK squads which count as a single psyker. A Culexus could literally have an Assault 74 weapon in a Corteaz/Battle-Psyker list.

 

SJ

Capitalization isn't enough to go on here; as has been said, there are other terms on which they are inconsistent with capitalization (terminator/Terminator, librarian/Librarian, etc.).

 

All Henchmen psykers are Psykers, per the BRB.

 

Not all Psykers are Henchmen psykers.

 

Keep in mind that were it the case the A.S. was meant to work only with the Henchmen Psykers that this would be explicitly stated in its entry. No such thing is stated; it says simply "Psykers". What's a Psyker? Well, we have lots of those; one example are Henchmen Psykers.

 

Just because the Henchmen Psyker's stat line reads "Psyker" does not mean that it overrides all other Psykers in the game unless otherwise mentioned. Anything this big would appear in the army rules, like the way And They Shall Know No Fear does, explicitly overriding standard Morale rules.

 

Food for thought: show me where in the GK Codex it says "The word 'Psyker' in this codex refers only to Henchmen Psykers unless otherwise noted". Or anything like that...other than the capital 'P'.

 

edit: typo

[yperihitikos]

I' ll copy my points from the discussion we had.

 

 

"Whenever a rule is covered in the BRB there is always a reference that asks us to look there for more information or it is explained somewhere in the codex. In the BRB it is explained what and who is a "psyker".

 

Instead of this, we are told that the device works when it is combined with "Psykers". As there is no reference to the BRB, while there are such models within the same codex, there is no misunderstanding. It is a clear reference to the Psykers that can be found in the GK codex. Even the "Brotherhood of Psykers" supports my point of view because in its description they are called "psykers". As for the Librarian, I could see a connection between "Psyker (Master Level)" with the "Psyker Mastery Levels" rule in page 21 where it is written that that rule gives them the "Psyker" special rule. Only for this line of text I see a possibility of a future FAQ with a different meaning for Culexus. However, I insist in the lack of any clarification in his lines which comes in contradiction to the other rules that are given throughout the codex."

 

and

 

"...every time a rule speaks about something that is covered in the BRB it is written clearly and I gave you specific examples. I would stop being confused if someone could prove me wrong with examples from the codex.

 

The example of Psyker (Mastery Level) is a good example that supports the idea that when the author wants to refer to a rule outside the codex it does it in the description of the rule. In the case of culexus, the author didn't choose to do so. His action from my point of view seems deliberate. It's not a codex that the players should decide themselves what is the meaning of psyker in the labeled units. The author gave the needed explanation first."

 

 

 

 

breng77' s first answer may be true. His second isn't. The word "Infantry" is under "Unit Type". In page 81 in GK codex it is explained that it refers to the BRB. You don't look to the BRB by yourself. The author is the one that tells you to do it. This is the main difference between Psyker henchmen and psyker models in the codex.

 

I claimed something and I gave my points and examples although I think I will not be proved right. Please, if you have different points try to give some examples within the book that support your points and counter mine. Generalizations support no one's point of view.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

breng77' s first answer may be true. His second isn't. The word "Infantry" is under "Unit Type". In page 81 in GK codex it is explained that it refers to the BRB. You don't look to the BRB by yourself. The author is the one that tells you to do it. This is the main difference between Psyker henchmen and psyker models in the codex.

 

I claimed something and I gave my points and examples although I think I will not be proved right. Please, if you have different points try to give some examples within the book that support your points and counter mine. Generalizations support no one's point of view.

 

:wallbash:

Psyker = psyker = psycher.

 

GW is not, has never been and probably never will be, a tight rules writer and a mishap on their behalf is causing a wild goose chase for something that does not and does already exist.

 

What you are asking us to prove against, does not exist. So there is no way anyone could ever find. It does not exist, so no-one could disprove it. How can you disprove a nothing? You cannot.

 

As I wrote before; Psyker = psyker = psycher.

:lol:

 

If the rule was written by another games company, then your approach is 100% correct. GW has always been a bit 'loose' with writing things tightly. You said yourself "although I think I will not be proved right" ~ I think your intuition is trying to tell your logic that what you want cannot be found.

^_^

[breng77]

breng77' s first answer may be true. His second isn't. The word "Infantry" is under "Unit Type". In page 81 in GK codex it is explained that it refers to the BRB. You don't look to the BRB by yourself. The author is the one that tells you to do it. This is the main difference between Psyker henchmen and psyker models in the codex.

 

Missed that one good call, however, it still holds true that the author does not refer to the rule every single time it is mentioned . So he may refer you to what a Psyker is in one section and then once that is established not do so again (i.e. when models have the Psyker special rule it does not refer you to the BRB each time) The Models don't have Psyker Mastery Levels. They are Psykers (which you need to refer to the BRB for) with a masterly level indicated in their unit entry.

[boreas]

Wow, I never noticed it before, but the special rule under Animus Speculum does specify "Pyskers", and not "psykers", which would imply that its the Psyker Inquisitorial henchmen that is being referenced and not psykers in general. Interesting, espesially because Psykers count individually as psykers unlike GK squads which count as a single psyker. A Culexus could literally have an Assault 74 weapon in a Corteaz/Battle-Psyker list.

 

SJ

 

Well, the A.S. gains 1 shot for every Psyker within 12". Now, psyker henchmen are definitively psykers (and Psykers with a capital "P", because both psykers and Psykers are used in the description, p. 51), so they do benefit the A.S.

 

But, "All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of psychic test, etc and use their own leadership value, not that of any attached characters. (emphasis mine).

 

That "etc" lets me think that not only for psychic test, but for any other purposes (as the "etc" is all-inclusive) they are considered as a single psyker. So, a Culexus assassin within 12" on a henchmen squad with 1-12 psykers only gains +1 to his A.S. from that squad.

 

Hence, A culexus assassin that's within 12" of: Coteaz, a GK libby, 3 squads of paladins, 6 squads of 12 henchmen psykers, 3 squads of GK interceptors, 3 squads of GK purgators would gain 17 shots to it's A.S., for a total of 19.

 

Phil

[thade]

I'm under the impression people get mad at me when I do this, but I do it often because it's appropriate.

 

Refer to the nighthawks quote in my signature; follow the link and see where I held a position with rules merit and was opposed by virtually everybody else on the board.

 

Bottom line is this: there are some rules so well known in this hobby that they forget to make a point of them with each new edition. One such rule is that a Psyker is a psyker is a witch unless licensed by the Imperium.

[The Emperor's Champion]

A Culexus Assassin's Animus Speculum gains strength from Psyker henchmen, Grey Knights, Eldar Farseers, Imperial Guard Sanctioned Psykers, Hive Tyrants, Librarians, Sorcerers, Weird Boyz, Warlocks, Librarian Dreadnoughts, Inquisitors, etc etc etc etc.

 

If it's a psyker, it counts. Woe be to the Seer Council or Psyker Battle Squad who encounters a Culexus Assassin....