Eldar woes (need advice)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think you should know me well enough to know I play Draigowing which has its own specific set of nuisances in regards to this subject.

 

G ;)

[thade]

I think you should know me well enough to know I play Draigowing which has its own specific set of nuisances in regards to this subject.

You seem to be trying to be antagonistic, which I do not appreciate.

 

The OP does not run DW (or at least, he doesn't seem to); for the typical Strike Squads and Grand Master list, single ICs having less trouble with Runes due to super Invuln Saves isn't the issue: it is, as I have said, rank-and-file.

 

On that note, Draigo Wing does have to worry about it...as Holocaust and Hammerhand are powers lost to your Paladins in the face of Runes. A re-rollable 5++ is not very good odds...why throw a wound away (literally, as odds are high you will fail and burn trying to activate a power) for the chance at a very, very small relative benefit (even without Hammerhand, a Paladin unit that engages any Eldar unit in CC is going to crush them)?

 

The benefits for gaining +1S or negating DS against Eldar are definitely not high enough in my mind to risk losing the Justicar. The fact that Fortitude will not only fail most of the time but potentially further damage my vehicles is even more worrisome. Can some particularly strong models risk using powers? Sure. They are the exception and not the norm.

[V Dubbed]

Hahah.. go away for a weekend and things have lit up like crazy in this topic!

 

I think you should know me well enough to know I play Draigowing which has its own specific set of nuisances in regards to this subject.

 

G ;)

 

I'm looking to start running a Draigowing force and would be very interested to hear how you run your force against Eldar and how you deal with the specific nuisances they bring to the table!

[thade]

I'm looking to start running a Draigowing force and would be very interested to hear how you run your force against Eldar and how you deal with the specific nuisances they bring to the table!

Depending on the DW-variant you run, if it's the traditional Nurglez pattern (mostly Paladins and two Dreadknights) this is what you do:

• Pretend you don't have Psychic Powers.
  
• Table the Eldar Player.
  

This is a very, very important point which needs to hit home for you: GK's psychic powers are nice but not required; some armies they're a necessary benefit against (marine forces which are T4 and outnumber you, for instance; DoA lists that will quickly get in your face and take away your 24" range benefit are what Warpquake is for; etc.) and other armies they're really not necessary against (one example is vanilla Eldar).

EDIT: typos and formatting

[V Dubbed]

Depending on the DW-variant you run, if it's the traditional Nurglez pattern (mostly Paladins and two Dreadknights) this is what you do:

• Pretend you don't have Psychic Powers.
  
• Table the Eldar Player.
  

 

Haha... to the point as always, sir!

 

I think you're exactly right. I actually have yet to use the Draigowing itself so I think I'm getting myself worried about stuff that really shouldn't be a factor at all. I'll stop fretting, finish my paladins and prep them for their first foray against the Eldar in about 2 weeks time. THEN we'll see what's what! :huh:

 

So basically what you guys should have said to me was "Dub, you need to pull up your skirt, march over to the space elves, and beat them to death with your fists!"

[thade]

So basically what you guys should have said to me was "Dub, you need to pull up your skirt, march over to the space elves, and beat them to death with your fists!"

lol

 

My marine chapter would nod with approval at that. The Grey Knights are a little more subtle. :huh:

 

You still want to play against Eldar as you would with normal marines...assault the shooty, shoot the assaulty. Paladins will weather even the brutal charge of a banshee squad, but they're still going to hurt even with wound allocation. The one thing you really need to focus down early are fire dragons: the last thing you want focus-firing a Paladin unit is a squad of five Eldar with S8 AP1. Lay their transport down early and keep them at range, punishing them with bolter-fire if they have the nerve to try and slog closer. Otherwise, their 12" range means you can safely ignore them in many cases...after you ground their ride. Brotherhood Banner will be very nice in the event you need to charge a Wraithlord: auto-activated Force Weapons means you're not rolling and not risking Perils. A shenanigan of your own to help with his shenanigan. A counter-shenanigan, if you will.

 

I look forward to the day that I shunt my Dreadknight up to my Eldar-playing buddy's annoying hoppy transport line and introduce them to a new world of OMG ITS HUGE!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

@ V Dubbed

 

Here is my typical list:

 

Draigo

Libby - MoT, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift, master crafted warding stave, 2x servo skull

 

10x Paladin - 4x psycannon, Brotherhood banner, etc. - psybolt ammo

10x GKT - 2x psycannon, 2x hammer, halberds - psybolt ammo (Thawn incl.)

 

2x psyfleman

 

The complete list is on my blog if you are interested.

 

:ph34r:

 

G :)

[nurglez]

I wish one of my friends played eldar, as I feel it would be a bad match up for my paladins. with only a 30 inch maximum threat range on the majority of my unit's, I feel my DK's would be rather important, and thus would probably get targeted and killed asap. Eldar having range means that a good player will target a small part of your force, or just shoot you at range. deploying as far forward as possible should help, but still, playing vs a decent eldar player is something I both look forward to and dread in equal measure...

 

Having played vs tyranids a few times, I'm more then happy to roll vs shadows in the warp, vs runes of warding, I'd probably be a lot more careful, but I don't often use that many psychic powers anyway (one of the benefits of not using a libby).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mechanized eldar are a tough matchup for eldar - they have Fire Prisms and Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents. I have found that playing aggressively is the best counter even though might sound counter intuitive. Psycannons and psyflemen are both good at popping their skimmers due to the high rate of fire plus they can penetrate on a fairly consistent basis. Psybolt ammo is great at shredding the space fairies once you've demeched them. Some eldar players run with autarchs instead of farseers to boost their reserves... Which is a blessing for us when run up against them.

 

G :o

[thade]

Psy-riflemen Dreads are popular for a reason. Four shots each which are twin-linked and S8; they pop Rhinos and ID MEQ in short-order. They'll spam their way right through Eldar transport shielding. Then you can ID the contents with Psycannon fire. :)

[V Dubbed]

Ok.

 

So after talking to the guy's I'll be having a game with in a few weeks, we've decided on a points level and what the teams will be. Having an odd number of players means that myself and another player will be splitting 2000 points as evenly as we can using a single FOC and we'll be up against 2000 points worth of Eldar. My team-mate will be rolling in with the Imperial Guard while I'll (obviously) be running the Grey Knights.

 

Basically what it means is that myself and my partner get to build a single army out of 2 codexes. At the moment we've put together a very rough list, but one that I think can really lay down a serious amount of hurt.

 

The IG will be showing up with:

 

2 squadrons of Hydra tanks (yup, 6 Hydras)

Platoon command

3 Guardsmen squads each with a Heavy Bolter

4 Heavy Weapon Units with heavy bolters and Rocket Launchers

 

I've picked Coteaz

8 DCA + 3 Acolytes

A Stormraven

and a Nemesis Dreadknight w/ PT and H. Inc.

 

260pts left to spend.....

 

The idea being that the Hydras tear into anything that rhymes with 'serpent' or 'prism' in the first few turns to make sure the eldar need to walk. The Heavy Bolters and RL's from the heavy weap. squads make sure getting to the IG gun line is..... painful....

 

The grey knights have mobility on their side. My mission will be to keep hard hitting units like Harlequins away from the squishy guardsmen. The DCA should excel at going toe to toe against Harlies. (my Eldar opponent has a fascination with Harlies, and judging by some of the forums he reads, I have no doubt hell join Yriel (or one of the other silly characters) to them for maximum Veil of Tear abuse) I like the idea of running the DCA into them because they strike at the same time in CC and 3 PW attacks per model each turn is pretty lethal. Obviously the DCA won't come out unscathed (if they come out at all) so their purpose is simply to try and fight the Harlies on their own terms and without having to deal with LOS shenanigans. The Dreadknight will us the PT to either hop behind the predicted group of Dark Reapers or to simply cause headaches for any units that are trying to stay out of the IG kill zone. BBQ to ensue....

 

I still have 260 points to burn and I'm sorely tempted to just throw a full interceptor squad on the table for even more teleporter pressure.

 

Are we going about this wrong? If you knew you had 2000 pts worth of Eldar coming your way, were almost 100% certain you'd have harlequins to deal with and had the 2 codexes to work from.... how would you run your forces to maximize the benefits from each army??

 

Discussion.... GO!

[Drachnon]

DCA vs harlequins sounds like a fun fight.

You're army seems a bit small though considering you're fielding Coteaz you might want to take some more henchmen. Perhaps one geared for claiming objectives outside of your deployment zone.

[thade]

If you have the models, henchmen can be a blast. Honeslty, though, I'd take some Knights. Scoring ones. Strike Squad or GKT.

[V Dubbed]

If you have the models, henchmen can be a blast. Honeslty, though, I'd take some Knights. Scoring ones. Strike Squad or GKT.

 

While technically I don't have the models for stuff like servitors and some of the more unique looking henchmen. The 'Stormtroopers' (read: Cadian Infantry with Pig-Iron heads) will fit the bill within my gaming group. I don't game at stores or in tournaments so WYSIWYG doesn't apply. Being able to field and try out a large array of the units in my codex without having to buy the models makes the game MUCH more enjoyable!

 

Normally I plan on running a list more in line with a Draigowing but because of the strange nature of this 2v1 set up, I've gone for something a little more.... entertaining? So because I'll typically have GKs and GKTs on the board, I think for this mission I'll rock some henchmen.

 

Anyone have some recommendations on how to spend ~250 points on henchman to hold objectives?

 

......

 

 

(not gonna lie..... a squad of termies is tempting.... ;) )

[thade]

For 250 you can amass warriors into squads and attach Coteaz so you have some massive Stubborn brick of fodder to hold that back field objective. Throw in a couple of power fists, some heavy fire power, and a lot of guys with a will to throw their lives away for Coteaz (read as: no upgrades). :)

 

Or terminators are awesome. <3

[IdOfEntity]

They'll spam their way right through Eldar transport shielding. Then you can ID the contents with Psycannon fire. :)

 

Alright, I might be daft, but how are they doing this easily? They're firing at moving skimmers with Front armor of 12 with I would assume holo-shields and that annoying farseer to tip the odds. They're also equipped with Pulse Lasers and other long range goodies like Missile Launchers, Bright Lances, or Starcannons. Or you know, Fire Prisms. And that's on the falcon bodies.

 

Inundating Eldar with mass high strength shots is wise indeed, but I still don't get how you guys are managing to pop the falcons and wave serpents so easily unless your opponent is too aggressive.

 

Help with the clarification please?

[confused_gordy]

To clarify...hydras!

 

They are basically the IG anti Eldar vehicle weapon. A Standard competative IG army will usually have a few, but 6 is terrifying. They are essentially similar to psyflemen, except they ignore cover provided by going fast.

 

 

On a side note...As much as both sides know who they are playing against.

 

The Eldar player cant really tailor his list against you two (being that you have so many options, with two army lists to work with), where as you can do "dirty" things like using 6 hydras. Will this really result in a fun game, or a one sided hulk smashing?

[thade]

They'll spam their way right through Eldar transport shielding. Then you can ID the contents with Psycannon fire. ;)

 

Alright, I might be daft, but how are they doing this easily? They're firing at moving skimmers with Front armor of 12 with I would assume holo-shields and that annoying farseer to tip the odds. They're also equipped with Pulse Lasers and other long range goodies like Missile Launchers, Bright Lances, or Starcannons. Or you know, Fire Prisms. And that's on the falcon bodies.

 

Inundating Eldar with mass high strength shots is wise indeed, but I still don't get how you guys are managing to pop the falcons and wave serpents so easily unless your opponent is too aggressive.

 

Help with the clarification please?

Psycannons are S7 4 shots (when stationary, 2 when on the move) with a 24" range...and a GK player will set him or herself up at mid-table as soon as they can. Typical GK lists have, minimum, six psycannons...but can easily have many more. Usually they're two per units, so you can be selective about which of your units fires at what.

 

Eldar shield shenanigans allow cover saves when they shouldn't get any, but with a high enough volume of glances and pens (easy to do with a dozen psycannons) you'll get through.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

High strength high rate of fire weapons are the bane of eldar skimmers.

 

G ^_^

[IdOfEntity]

@thade

 

To be fair, I've never had to fight Grey Knights.

 

But how are you getting those Penetrating hits? Skimmers that move more than 6 inches downgrade all penetrating shots to glancing, or so I thought.

 

With a S7 shot you've got a 1/3 chance of the shot breaking into the glancing table on the front armor of a falcon, and then a 1/3 chance of either immobilising or destroying the vehicle, which you'd have to reroll on the table which means only 1/9 of glancing shots will actually immobilise or destroy. That's less than a 4% chance, right? Your BS roll has a 2/3 chance of hitting. So we're looking at ~2.5% for immobilization or destruction for each shot. So for 4 shots we're looking at just under 10%. This is assuming you don't have a farseer mucking things up, and using his psychic powers. So if you bring 6 Psycannons to bear on a falcon within 24" of each unit, you have a 59% chance of downing it on one turn. (not including all the other heavy weapons Grey Knight's muster)

 

Don't get me wrong, you can whittle the things down to uselessness with enough glancing hits once you're in range. But you won't be in range on turn 1, might be in turn 2 (and if you're smart you'll occupy the center like you said) And Psycannons sound like a wonderful way to ruin a Mechdar's day. They would certainly make me cautious.

 

I think it comes down to a question of how many points the game is set for. A low point game I think the advantage goes to the Eldar. Higher point games I think the advantage goes to the Grey Knights.

[thade]

But how are you getting those Penetrating hits? Skimmers that move more than 6 inches downgrade all penetrating shots to glancing, or so I thought.

I don't remember this...though it might be an Eldar thing? (It's not a base rules thing.) Even still, I've glanced Land Raiders to death with massed assault cannon fire: Psycannons will do much the same to a Skimmer. A conservative eight psycannons will pump out 32 shots at 24". Expect 22 or so will hit, 7 will glance on your average set of rolls. If you moved Flat Out! with that skimmer, you've saving on 3+, so say 3 glances get through. How many guns on the average grav tank transport? How many Weapon Destroyed! results can it endure? Not to mention, one Immobilized result will suck super hard (and dramatically reduce the target priority for that grav tank).

 

That's rough expected rolling (i.e. dice aren't hot for anybody) and a conservative number of psycannons (also ignoring other typical things, like 4 TL shots at S8 48" from Psy-riflemen Dreads). It's fair odds for the transport, but not great odds.

[IdOfEntity]

Ah crud, I may have called 4th edition rules to mind. My bad.

[thade]

Ah crud, I may have called 4th edition rules to mind. My bad.

It's possible; it could be an Eldar thing. I honestly can't remember.

[IdOfEntity]

Ah crud, I may have called 4th edition rules to mind. My bad.

It's possible; it could be an Eldar thing. I honestly can't remember.

 

 

Oh no, I scewed it up. This is what happens when you've been playing since 96. Mixing edition rules up.

 

I shall restrict myself to the PCA area for the time being in penance.

[V Dubbed]

Ok, bringing this thread back for one last kick!

 

I'm going to try to steer this back towards the Army list I asked about earlier in the thread (not that I don't appreciate the insights regarding the intricacies of killing 4 edition eldar vehicles! ;) )

 

Thus far the list hasn't really changed yet, but my friend who'll be playing as the Guard was curious as to what you guys thought about the Heavy Bolters and Missile launchers in the Heavy weapon squads. Overkill? Should the guard be toting Auto Cannons instead? More/less Missile Launchers?

 

Personally I think the two forces should play well off each others weaknesses but I'm still unsure of how to spend the remaining points. I also think adding a greatsword to the NDK will help when trying to punch holes in skimmers. The downside to that will be having less point to put towards troops.

 

If you guys had the IG codex, the GK codex and 2000 points to spend between the two.... How would your armies look?

 

Also, to clarify the "Hulk-Smashing" comment from confused_gordy. To start, you are right, myself and my team-mate have purpose built this list to be anti-eldar. I agree with you that this really isn't THE most sporting thing we could do, but if you knew the Eldar opponent we'll be facing, you'd understand...

 

The guy playing Eldar is a Win-at-All-Costs-style player and almost always has min-maxed tournament style lists on the table when we play friendly games. He's a rules lawyer and it's also not uncommon for his math to be .... a little off.... when it comes to unit upgrades and wargear.... Needless to say, going up against him is less and less fun all the time. This tailor-made Eldar hammer of an army that we're putting together is simply to bring him back down a notch.

 

Before anyone jumps on me for saying all that, he's a good guy, and one of my buddies so everyone who's thinking stuff like "you shouldn't stoop to their level" and other stuff like "we have guys like that in our hobby shop and if they bug you, just don't play them..." I've read a million posts about guys who suck to play against and how some people really hate having to deal with 13 year olds who can't stand being-outplayed so they pack up and quit etc etc. I play friendly games exclusively. I've played at a hobby centre once and it was still against guys i knew. This one guy is just a bit... over-competitive.... and I think a good stomping will help! If nothing else, it sure will be nice to be on the winning end of the shenanigans for a change....

 

That's the breakdown of the situation. Period. I dont want this thread turning into a discussion about certain players and what to do about them. Lets keep this thread on topic. If you still feel the need to rage at me for my points of view, fire me a PM and I'll be more than happy to ignore it entirely.