Grimdarkness Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I think it was in a what do you want to see in the new codex topic that someone mentioned the whys and hows of a marine moving up the ranks of the inner circle in the unforgiving. Since work was slow this afternoon i had time to think it over so here is my take. Step one. vetren you learn a little of the truth of a great betrayel. step two. vetren seargent you learn of the rumors that one should listing for about single or small groups of dark armoured marines. step three. The raven wing you learn who and what you seek you also learn the patience required to hunt your quarry down. (i've always seen the RW as the huntsmen of the unforgiving) step four. The deathwing having shown you can withstand all required of you you move on to the capture teams. step five. Promotion to captain/chaplain you are now a gaurd of the secret shame of the chapter you understand the fortitude needed to excel as a member of the inner circle and keep a eye open for the next genearation. step six. Master or supreme grand master of one of the legions chapters. Thought's Ideas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 A DA Space Marine learns about the Fallen upon induction in the DW. No one knows before that. If they do learn by accident things happen (not only bad things necessarily, could be induction to the DW if the marine in question is deemed worthy). So steps 1, 2 & 3 are a no-no. There is no progression in knowledge before entering the DW! Even RW is oblivious, although they get indoctrinated on how to protect themselves against Traitor Marine lies... Because they are going to hear quite a few of them :D. Regarding Chaplains it is not clear to me whether they are all of them members of the DW. Int. Chaplains obviously are and they are members of the Inner Circle at that. But the "ordinary" Chaplains? I am not sure... The question should be really what does it take to become member of the DW? I do not think there is a straight answer to that. Oh and although they are unforgiving they are collectively known as Unforgiven :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonhinge Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 According to 4th ed codex, pg 37, "Interrogator-Chaplains are members of the Inner Circle. ... Throughout his tenure as Chaplain, the individual is scrutinized from afar by the Masters, for his duties may at times take him dangerously close to knowledge of the Fall of Caliban." This also explains why our regular chaplains don't have the option of Terminator Armor. Conversely, of course, Azreal should have the option, but then he's already got a spiffy hat with an invulnerable save, and his armor's just as good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 According to 4th ed codex, pg 37, "Interrogator-Chaplains are members of the Inner Circle. ... Throughout his tenure as Chaplain, the individual is scrutinized from afar by the Masters, for his duties may at times take him dangerously close to knowledge of the Fall of Caliban." I know - I said so above. But the question still stands: the "ordinary" Chaplains (as in non-Interoggator) are they members of the DW or not? If not then Chaplains jump from Greenwing straight to the Inner Circle upon becoming Interrogators? No gradual progression for them? They either know (almost) everything or nothing at all? If there is progression though, one can assume that there are Chaplains inducted in the Deathwing but have not reached Interrogator status yet. If that is the case why aren't they allowed to wear TDA? This also explains why our regular chaplains don't have the option of Terminator Armor. Conversely, of course, Azreal should have the option, but then he's already got a spiffy hat with an invulnerable save, and his armor's just as good. Personally I think this is where background and rules do not add up - sort of . Background wise I'd assume that Chaplains, like everybody else, have a gradual progression. Initially they are picked for their combat skills and ability to inspire their fellow marines in the battlefields and then if they meet the Chapter's scrutiny standards they are inducted in the DW. From then on they progress to become Interrogators by entering the Inner Circle... But rules wise there were two kinds of Chaplains, the "expensive" option that comes with TDA if the player so wishes and the cheap option with only PA. And someone thought: let's call the expensive ones "Interrogators"! That's Dark Angely enough isn't it? And so it happened. That's my take on the subject... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 A little stalking here and there a little peeping by ezekiel and then the brother is either inducted in the DW or...accidents happen... "Hey that servitor looks like brother Bob!Havent seen him for two months" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 I've never understood the ravenwings lack of knowledge IMO the ravenwing should be the force sent to hunt the rumors and not the whole force deployed. It would make the teleport homers make sense. In my points i should have mentioned that the vets have being inducted into the deathwing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I've never understood the ravenwings lack of knowledge IMO the ravenwing should be the force sent to hunt the rumors and not the whole force deployed. It would make the teleport homers make sense. It sais so clearly in the codex.And they do just that,its just that they dont know the reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonhinge Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Part of the confusion is GW's insistence on using the same term for different things. Every member of the 1st company are also members of the Deathwing, but not every member of Deathwing are in the 1st company. "Only Deathwing members have access to Terminator armor" has been implied through fluff and rules. From the bit about Chaplains, it's implied that they know nothing about the Fall. Therefore they're not members of the Deathwing. My take on Veterans is one of two things. Either they are members of the Deathwing without Terminator armor (no room in 1st company); or they are worthy of being in the first company based on time/deeds, yet not ready for knowledge of the Fall. Based on previous rules, I prefer the first over the second. My guess is that once you're determined to be ready for knowledge, you're sent to The Rock for training. How this is justified within the Chapter as a whole is another subject entirely. Chapel of the Rock guard duty is probably popular. One doesn't get promoted to Chaplain. It's a calling - perhaps more so in 40k than it is now. My guess is that the Chapter's Chaplains keep watch over the Scouts, and pick out those who also have that calling for more specialized training and indoctrination. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I made some thoughts regarding the deathwing some years ago and the questions asked regarding terminator armor and secrets knowledge. To my mind it seems the memebers of the deathwing are all first and foremost knowledgeable about the fall.Second they are all trained in the use of terminator armor. Now call me a deviant or a fool but i dont believe that the first company is always on 100% operational status.That is,its members deployed on a daily basis in TDA . I believe the deathwing operates like this:All its members are in close proximity to the rock so if the need arises they can return immediately and equip themselves.A small part of it OFC that are the most trustworthy members of the inner circle*are always on standby for emergencies.One can argue that those members are too valuable to be deployed in 'simple' engagements and risk them.They might also form some kind of council regarding the hunt. Some of the deathwing veterans are acting as squad leaders or force commanders within other companies(whence they came before entering the deathwing perhaps?)of the DA. Some are deployed in power armor or command squads,when tda is not an option or deemed worth the mission.Some are deployed as PA escorts to a company master(after all CMs are too members of the deathwing). I believe i dont need to enter the librarians,we all know that they are part of the DW and also deploy in PA. The same stands for interrogators. In my mind the first company is rarely deployed en mass(i.e. all 100 marines).After all if the DA commit the entire first company into an engagement then the odds are that they will need to deploy the entire chapter and if THAT is deemed necessary,well the odds are the :) hit the fan and the imperium is a little bit :wub: ed in regards to that engagement/campaign. *Now lets see,what i meant by trustworthy members in the inner circle.We dont have any official fluff regarding status or rank inside the circle. But to assume that there arent is folly IMHO.According to my mindset,brothers learn the truth bit by bit.The more bits you know the more it means you are trustworthy and higher in position within the circle.Fighting prowess is a necessity OFC but upholding the burdens of the chapter comes first. If you can do both then you will rise to the position of a company master.If you excel you might go as far as master of the deathwing which we all know in actuality is the chapter masters successor. Now for those that are judged worthy but not worthy enough for the highest levels(due to some character flaw or lack of ability),i believe membership to the deathwing is granted,but they are not privy to the darkest secrets and by extension they are not a permanent fix to the 1st company.Such individuals may serve as sergeants and squad leaders in other companies. There is also one other possibility:If i remember Naaman was a member of the deathwing.Perhaps one is judged so skilled in certain abilities that the inner circle sacrifices his battle prowess in the first company in order to fill gaps in the greater war machine of the chapter.After all what is the use of powerful mind if the body is dead? Any way,thats how it is in my mind and personally i believe that would be a reasonable way of explaining the veterans not in TDA serving on other companies. Confused yet?If not shoot me or love me.In any case i believe this a great debate and i thank the OP for starting it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Part of the confusion is GW's insistence on using the same term for different things. Every member of the 1st company are also members of the Deathwing, but not every member of Deathwing are in the 1st company. "Only Deathwing members have access to Terminator armor" has been implied through fluff and rules. Agreed. Back in 3rd the distinction was made for the first time. In 2nd the term DW and 1st Comp. were interchangeable. In 3rd it was possible for a vet. sergeant to become member of the DW (actually getting stubborn in the process for +5pts if I recall). So the notion that DW was not a fancy name for the 1st Comp. but in fact a Circle of knowledge was introduced. From the bit about Chaplains, it's implied that they know nothing about the Fall. Therefore they're not members of the Deathwing. That's what I thought initially. But there is a problem: If a Chaplain is oblivious to the Fall (and therefore not a member of the DW) when he progresses to become an Interrogator he jumps several levels of knowledge and becomes a member of the Inner Circle straight away? I seriously doubt that! It doesn't make sense. It is very un-DA and surely they'll be a gradual progression for Chaplains as well. So conceivably it will be possible to have Chaplains that are DW members but NOT Inner Circle members - therefore not Interrogators. Question again is why those individuals won't have access to TDA? My answer to that is: They could! It's just that rules-wise it was decided to have two tiers of Chaplains and they just named the upper tier "Interrogator". My take on Veterans is one of two things. Either they are members of the Deathwing without Terminator armor (no room in 1st company); or they are worthy of being in the first company based on time/deeds, yet not ready for knowledge of the Fall. Based on previous rules, I prefer the first over the second. Yes... They are both. Those Vet Sergeants that are members of the DW and those that aren't. Given the general literature you can get all kinds of funny stuff like an Apothecary being deeper in the Inner Circle than an Interrogator Chaplain or what-have-you. As DW is essentially a circle - not a fighting formation exclusively anybody could be inducted if the Chapter feels he's worthy. Veteran trooper X of the 4th Comp. could be one. I guess the laxity about who gets to wear robes reflects that to some degree. My guess is that once you're determined to be ready for knowledge, you're sent to The Rock for training. How this is justified within the Chapter as a whole is another subject entirely. Chapel of the Rock guard duty is probably popular. One doesn't get promoted to Chaplain. It's a calling - perhaps more so in 40k than it is now. My guess is that the Chapter's Chaplains keep watch over the Scouts, and pick out those who also have that calling for more specialized training and indoctrination. As I said to my previous post the big pre-requisite is that you have exceptional fighting abilities and a natural tendency to inspire your fellow marines. So they definately require a lot of fighting expirience in order to determine that. Although Chaplains are involved in the selection and/or training of scouts (Angels of Darkness) I doubt they (the scouts) are ear marked that early for such an office. Although initial signs might be visible and the Chaplains might keep an close eye on a particular recruit, my guess is the time to be named a Chaplain would be much later in the life of a marine. I fully agree with you that a marine does not get "promoted" to the rank of a Chaplain - he has to be invited based on his combat skills and the impact he has on his brothers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I believe the deathwing operates like this:All its members are in close proximity to the rock so if the need arises they can return immediately and equip themselves.A small part of it OFC that are the most trustworthy members of the inner circle*are always on standby for emergencies.One can argue that those members are too valuable to be deployed in 'simple' engagements and risk them.They might also form some kind of council regarding the hunt. I agree that the Inner Circle will be employed on special occasions but having the entire DW operating close to the Rock (although the latter is travelling) I think it is too restrictive and I would beleive it is not the case... Some of the deathwing veterans are acting as squad leaders or force commanders within other companies(whence they came before entering the deathwing perhaps?)of the DA. Some are deployed in power armor or command squads,when tda is not an option or deemed worth the mission.Some are deployed as PA escorts to a company master(after all CMs are too members of the deathwing). Right... this is actually an interesting topic. It seems that there is the notion that once you are a member of the DW you need to serve (even briefly) in the 1st Company i.e. leave you current company, go to the 1st, train, do whatever and then possibly return to your initial company as a Veteran Sergeant or a Veteran Trooper. I do not subscribe to this idea. I beleive that the military progression is different to the knowledge progression within the Chapter. That means that a trooper can possibly become a member of the DW but NOT join the 1st Company at all. He will continue to serve in his own Company until called to join the 1st - if ever. If such a thing occurs said trooper will not re-join his former squads no more than a 1st Company Veteran of another Codex Chapter will return to serve to another company. Such mobility between Companies does not exist. Unless of course said trooper attains the rank of a Master in which case he is asigned a Company to command. Same applies for Command Squads - they are just members of the Company - not members of the 1st Company "returning"... That's my take. Military progession is a vector. There is no coming back. It is actually possible a member of the DW not to progress to 1st Company although worthy because he is more valuable to the Chapter in his current position. I believe i dont need to enter the librarians,we all know that they are part of the DW and also deploy in PA.The same stands for interrogators. I agree on Librarians - not so for Chaplains... EDIT: you said Interrogators -I'm sorry, I agree there. In fact they are Inner Circle! But with non-Interrogator Chaplains it is a bit unclear. In my mind the first company is rarely deployed en mass(i.e. all 100 marines).After all if the DA commit the entire first company into an engagement then the odds are that they will need to deploy the entire chapter and if THAT is deemed necessary,well the odds are the hit the fan and the imperium is a little bit ;) ed in regards to that engagement/campaign. Agreed there :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonhinge Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Looking over my 2nd ed Angels of Death codex, it seems that GW fluff is contradicting itself. Shocking, I know. Anyways, it says that when a chaplain becomes an interrogator-chaplain, he's inducting into the Deathwing as well - but not the Inner Circle, which 4th says they do. However, both codexes say that marines do not even begin to learn about the Fall and Fallen until they are members of the Deathwing. All the codexes do state that Librarians assist the Interrogator-Chaplains with questioning the Fallen, and 2nd and 3rd explicitly state they are inducted into the Deathwing as soon as they join the chapter. 2nd and 3rd mention that the Ravenwing are tasked with hunting down Chaos Space Marines - but they're never told that they are Fallen Space Marines. 4th says that they are at the forefront of the hunt of the Fallen, but does not say whether or not they know the secret. Regarding 1st company, GW screwed things up a little by letting 3rd Vet Sgts take terminator honors and let them be members of the Deathwing, when it says in all three that members of the 1st Company are only deployed in Terminator armor - never in power armor. 4th ed codex actually spells out pretty well the progression of ranks within the Dark Angels (now that I'm actually reading all the fluff over again). Battle-Brother -> Company Veteran -> Veteran Sergeant -> Deathwing -> Inner Circle. Members of the Inner Circle are at first glance, simply the various people who would normally be at the top of any organizational chart anyways - Grand Master, Company Masters, etc. The only thing different about the Dark Angels is that they also have the Interrogator-Chaplains and Librarians there as well. Granted, I haven't read any of the books other than codexes, so that's the extent of my fluff exposure. I will say that the authors of other books are probably taking some liberties with things because it sounds good. Plus, there's always exceptions to every rule, and it's possible - like the apothecary mentioned earlier - that some rank and file marines might learn more without being formally members of the Inner Circle or Deathwing. I will note that only command squads can have apothecaries, you know, so the Inner Circle - with the exception of the standard Chaplain (maybe) - can keep an eye on them. So perhaps those other guys in the command squad also know a bit more than they would normally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Looking over my 2nd ed Angels of Death codex, it seems that GW fluff is contradicting itself. Shocking, I know. :D :D ;) 2nd and 3rd mention that the Ravenwing are tasked with hunting down Chaos Space Marines - but they're never told that they are Fallen Space Marines. 4th says that they are at the forefront of the hunt of the Fallen, but does not say whether or not they know the secret. It does actually. On p.17, 2nd para it says: "Although only the Company's highest officers know it, the Ravenwing's primary role is to hunt down and capture the Fallen Angels" and in the next para it continues to explain how RW brethern are indoctinated to ignore Chaos marine's "lies". So yes what was the case back in 2nd and 3rd is still the case in 4th... Regarding 1st company, GW screwed things up a little by letting 3rd Vet Sgts take terminator honors and let them be members of the Deathwing, when it says in all three that members of the 1st Company are only deployed in Terminator armor - never in power armor. I actually found this a great addition! It split the DW-1st Company and the DW-Circle. Now that means that 1st Company members are all DW and of course fight only in TDA. But you get other DW members that are not 1st Company. This is because their loyalty is stronger than their combat skills or (more likely) it is to the benefit of the Chapter to leave them in the Greenwing (for want of a better term). Just by being in the DW circle doesn't make you a 1st Company warrior. I would expect though that the individuals that are inducted in the DW and have not joined the 1st Comp. would be quite few... Then again who knows? Granted, I haven't read any of the books other than codexes, so that's the extent of my fluff exposure. I will say that the authors of other books are probably taking some liberties with things because it sounds good. Plus, there's always exceptions to every rule, and it's possible - like the apothecary mentioned earlier - that some rank and file marines might learn more without being formally members of the Inner Circle or Deathwing. I will note that only command squads can have apothecaries, you know, so the Inner Circle - with the exception of the standard Chaplain (maybe) - can keep an eye on them. So perhaps those other guys in the command squad also know a bit more than they would normally. But that's the thing: some rank & file marines can be formally members of the DW (although I would imagine there sould be veterans of some sort - and they are probably not very vocal about it too). That doesn't mean they served in the 1st Company or indeed that they ever will. To the uninducted rank & file marines, DW might be synonimus to the 1st Company - but we know better ;) . Also not all Apothecaries are members of the DW (necessarily :P ) - it was just an example mentioned in "Angels of Darkness". All this is getting kind of confusing... But that's what DAs are all about no? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Regarding 1st company, GW screwed things up a little by letting 3rd Vet Sgts take terminator honors and let them be members of the Deathwing, when it says in all three that members of the 1st Company are only deployed in Terminator armor - never in power armor. Ahh but is a veteran sarge in the 5th company still a member of the 1st co or "just" a member of the Deathwing SERVING in the 5th? Termi Honors just meant that a brother had served in terminator armor at one point. there isnt anything that suggests that privates in the 1st co cant be rotated back to the line companies when they make sarge or heaven forbid, the Scout companies. Every actual army does this why shouldnt the fictional armys do this too? 4th ed codex actually spells out pretty well the progression of ranks within the Dark Angels (now that I'm actually reading all the fluff over again). Battle-Brother -> Company Veteran -> Veteran Sergeant -> Deathwing -> Inner Circle. So every member of the 1st company is a veteran Sargeant? No, that is not logical and is only one path. Other paths (as shown in the Deathwing Anthology) is to stumble upon the truth while on a misson under the care of a Deathwing member (A chaplain in that case. When at the end the sarge walks up to the termies and hands over the Croizus he tells them things that the Chappie didnt have time to tell him so he has picked some other bits of it up along the way...) "How do you know these things?" "I am Deathwing." The fourth ed Codex also has a blurb in there about how even scouts are told stylized tales from the chapter's dim past about betrayal and the guy next to you may turn on you. When they get to the point of knowing the truth they will either go "Oh that's why!" or they wont even notice at all and will continue to do their job. How many who are suited to the freewheeling tactics of the Ravenwing, who have figured out who they hunt, would willingly give up that role for a plodding slow walking tank? I feel that there are a great many full Deathwing members scattered throughout the entire chapter, doing the job they are best at and will operate similar to the warrior Lodges (but with ranks. The Inner Circle must be obeyed.) So the Deathwing is the warrior Lodge AND the first company... My 2p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 [so the Deathwing is the warrior Lodge AND the first company... My 2p This^^ imho. "What kind of a nut lives in a shell?" My 2c @ exchange rate of about: 0.52 stobz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonhinge Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Ahh but is a veteran sarge in the 5th company still a member of the 1st co or "just" a member of the Deathwing SERVING in the 5th? Termi Honors just meant that a brother had served in terminator armor at one point. there isnt anything that suggests that privates in the 1st co cant be rotated back to the line companies when they make sarge or heaven forbid, the Scout companies. Every actual army does this why shouldnt the fictional armys do this too?... I feel that there are a great many full Deathwing members scattered throughout the entire chapter, doing the job they are best at and will operate similar to the warrior Lodges (but with ranks. The Inner Circle must be obeyed.) So the Deathwing is the warrior Lodge AND the first company... The screwy thing about 3rd was that all Veteran Sergeants had Terminator Honors. For an extra 5 points, you could upgrade them to be members of the Deathwing and give them stubborn. Although reading the Lexicanum article on Terminator Honors, it mentions that before training in Terminator armor, a marine would have already been awarded Terminator Honors. So the Terminator Honors, as given in 3rd, imply that this person is worthy of standing with his brothers in the 1st company. He just hasn't been trained/indoctrinated yet. Possible in a prolonged campaign. Every actual army may do this - but as you say, we're talking about a fictional army. Space Marines are sane fanatics for their cause. They fight for their god-Emperor, for free. For no other reason but to slaughter his Emperor's enemies. the only promotions are from Battle-Brother to Company Veteran to Veteran Sergeant to Deathwing to Company Master and up. Every member of the 1st company was a Veteran Sergeant at one point. Now they're 1st company and Deathwing. It's the path of progression in the Dark Angels. Comparing it to real world armies doesn't work, because there's nothing similar, besides the fact that they're both armies, and may or may not have units called "marines". Similar rank names mean nothing, because there's really just the 4-6 ranks or so. The only thing I can think of that might be close in concept is a samurai, but even that's not quite right. The knights of the Dark Ages are close as well, except Space Marines aren't nobility. They're unpaid volunteers who want to do what they feel is best for the Imperium. Granted, considering the various images of Hive worlds and such that I've seen, being a Space Marine is a good alternative. Basically, you have to remember it's fictional, and things that might apply in a real world military organization won't necessarily apply in a Space Marine Chapter. Of course, talking about all this organization and such reminds me of my plans for doing a battle company - where exactly do the Company Veterans fit in? They can't be "extra" squads in a company, we'd start violating that 1000 marine rule. Probably go with my gut and replace the assault squads with them. Or maybe 5-10 assault and only 5 tactical. Of course, i could just be looking for an excuse to make a Veterans squad. And let's not get into where command squads fit in. ...the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Of course, talking about all this organization and such reminds me of my plans for doing a battle company - where exactly do the Company Veterans fit in? They can't be "extra" squads in a company, we'd start violating that 1000 marine rule. Probably go with my gut and replace the assault squads with them. Or maybe 5-10 assault and only 5 tactical. Of course, i could just be looking for an excuse to make a Veterans squad. And let's not get into where command squads fit in. ...the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Company Vet squads replace Tactical squads in the Battle Companies and 6th and 7th Reserve Companies (p14 4th Ed Dex), no need to break the 1k + HQs chapter rule or the basic 107 marines in a company either. Remember that being a vet is a level of skill (upgraded stats) not a rank (leadership role), you could theoretically have 60 vets in a battle company(not counting the remaining 4 sgts and command squad members), esp after a prolonged campaign (just try scoring in game terms :D ) OT, and IMHO(based on the ever changing but simplified info in dexes and the more expanded info in the novels): DW squad members are different to DW sgts in load out only, they are all Deathwing level when it comes to knowledge about the fallen. GW Sgts may or may not have Deathwing level knowledge, it depends on the sgt and whether or not he has been inducted into the DW, and this is different to having served in the 1st Company. GW Vets also may have Deathwing level knowledge, for the same reason as the sgts, but I would say less often than them. having Deathwing level knowledge spread thoughout the chapter is a cool way of keeping the 'intelligence' network working. 3 more cents, just my take though s Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2881850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonhinge Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 The company veteran line applied better before the FAQ. We can now deck them out to be much more assaulty than an assault squad. (Lightning Claws and Melta Bombs for everyone!) Eh, it's my army, I'll do what I want. ;) Besides, I think I've got a couple starter boxes worth of snap-fit type tactical marines. Although it does say similar. They do start out that way. I guess I just don't tend to use assault squads - not because they're not worth the points - but because I'm generally using Belial, so I use Deathwing for similar roles. And Landspeeders. I count 105 for most companies, with Deathwing having 103 (No chaplain/company champion) and Ravenwing with 104 (No company champion). But I think at this point we can all agree that the whole Inner circle/Deathwing is an enigma shrouded in mystery, wrapped in a tortilla, and served with a nice queso blanco sauce. ... Now I want nachos. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2882014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I count 105 for most companies, with Deathwing having 103 (No chaplain/company champion) and Ravenwing with 104 (No company champion). But I think at this point we can all agree that the whole Inner circle/Deathwing is an enigma shrouded in mystery, wrapped in a tortilla, and served with a nice queso blanco sauce. ... Now I want nachos. :P 105 + Chappy + Master ;) My math is not a direct read from the page 15 table (to me it is an over simplified and lazily drafted TOE) but an interpretation due to the need to take a 5 man command squad to include the Champ, Apothecary and Standard Bearer. I'll be buggered if I know how the RW do it ;) I think the beauty of GWs' 'ambiguous' writing is that we can adopt whatever suits our own fetishes :lol: Mmmmmm, nachos. Meee too s Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2882033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 The screwy thing about 3rd was that all Veteran Sergeants had Terminator Honors. For an extra 5 points, you could upgrade them to be members of the Deathwing and give them stubborn. Although reading the Lexicanum article on Terminator Honors, it mentions that before training in Terminator armor, a marine would have already been awarded Terminator Honors. So the Terminator Honors, as given in 3rd, imply that this person is worthy of standing with his brothers in the 1st company. He just hasn't been trained/indoctrinated yet. Possible in a prolonged campaign. Absolutely correct! Back in 3rd, terminator honours was another conflicitng thing between fluff and rules. The way I rationalised it was that the terminator honours were awarded to a sergeant as a result of his performance in the field - thus making him offiially a veteran. It was a way to say he was Terminator material i.e. he was as good as a terminator in all respects but the equipment. In a strange way it makes sense! Every actual army may do this - but as you say, we're talking about a fictional army. Space Marines are sane fanatics for their cause. They fight for their god-Emperor, for free. For no other reason but to slaughter his Emperor's enemies. the only promotions are from Battle-Brother to Company Veteran to Veteran Sergeant to Deathwing to Company Master and up. Every member of the 1st company was a Veteran Sergeant at one point. Now they're 1st company and Deathwing. It's the path of progression in the Dark Angels. Comparing it to real world armies doesn't work, because there's nothing similar, besides the fact that they're both armies, and may or may not have units called "marines". Similar rank names mean nothing, because there's really just the 4-6 ranks or so. Again I'm in full agreement in that the progress in the Chapter is a vector. No going back. If you progress to 1st Company that's where you stay. If of course you move to become a Captain you get to lead a Greenwing Company - but that's different. The thing I am not sure about is that every member of the first Company was at some point a Vet. Sergeant. Is there a direct piece of fluff saying so? I was under the impression from the text on p.24 of the current (4th ed.) codex that Veteran Sergeants and/or Veteran Troopers can rise to the ranks of the Deathwing (if they were chosen by their superiors). The only thing I can think of that might be close in concept is a samurai, but even that's not quite right. The knights of the Dark Ages are close as well, except Space Marines aren't nobility. They're unpaid volunteers who want to do what they feel is best for the Imperium. Granted, considering the various images of Hive worlds and such that I've seen, being a Space Marine is a good alternative. In my view, DAs of the 41st Millenium are NOT medevial knights. The pre-Heresy DAs might be closer to that archetype but in 40k they are more of a secret organization where the end justifies the means. No nobility is involved. They'll let people die, they'll kidnap, mislead, abandon Imperial Forces even in the time of dire need and use torture with no problem at all. As I said in other threads they are more like KGB and equivalents rather than noble champions of truth & justice - hence no knightly archetype for them... Of course, talking about all this organization and such reminds me of my plans for doing a battle company - where exactly do the Company Veterans fit in? They can't be "extra" squads in a company, we'd start violating that 1000 marine rule. Probably go with my gut and replace the assault squads with them. Or maybe 5-10 assault and only 5 tactical. Of course, i could just be looking for an excuse to make a Veterans squad. And let's not get into where command squads fit in. ...the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Well the Veteran squads are supposed to replace tactical squads. Command squads are outside the 100 warriors/company structure as is the case for the Chaplain, the Master and the Apothercary (who is a member of the Command squad anyway). I think this falls within the accepted tolerence levels as other Codex chapters have similar formations. Company Vet squads replace Tactical squads in the Battle Companies and 6th and 7th Reserve Companies (p14 4th Ed Dex), no need to break the 1k + HQs chapter rule or the basic 107 marines in a company either. Remember that being a vet is a level of skill (upgraded stats) not a rank (leadership role), you could theoretically have 60 vets in a battle company(not counting the remaining 4 sgts and command squad members), esp after a prolonged campaign (just try scoring in game terms :) ) That! And isn't it a pity they don't allow our Veterans the use of jump-packs? That would solve the sternguard/vanguard slot in one go - case closed. But then again I am no expert on rules and list buildings. Just seems so easy and elegant solution to me... OT, and IMHO(based on the ever changing but simplified info in dexes and the more expanded info in the novels):DW squad members are different to DW sgts in load out only, they are all Deathwing level when it comes to knowledge about the fallen. GW Sgts may or may not have Deathwing level knowledge, it depends on the sgt and whether or not he has been inducted into the DW, and this is different to having served in the 1st Company. GW Vets also may have Deathwing level knowledge, for the same reason as the sgts, but I would say less often than them. having Deathwing level knowledge spread thoughout the chapter is a cool way of keeping the 'intelligence' network working. 3 more cents, just my take though s My views exactly. Selection for DW knowledge is irrespective of "military" rank. And as I mentioned above I am not sure whether 1st Company's recruitment pool is only Veteran Sergeants or any Veteran trooper... And it is possible that a Veteran inducted in the Deathwing (Sergeant or not) will remain in the Greenwing for ever - not progressing to the 1st Company - as the chapter might consider him more useful in this poisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2882171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Something that is both and out of topic: If gw was putting a tiny bit of effort compared to the effort we players make to understand DA fluff,the next codex would have been 500 pages and the 400 would be fluff only. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2883406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Quite right! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2883452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 Some interesting ideas thanks for the input. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2884286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Page 17 of the 4th edition Codex: Dark Angels states: "Although only the company's highest ranked officers know it, the Ravenwing's primary role is to hunt down and capture the Fallen Dark Angels. Therefore, the members of the 2nd Company are granted limited knowledge of the secrets of the Dark Angels - much more than the 3rd to 10th Companies, but far less than the Deathwing and the Inner Circle." What "members of the 2nd Company" are granted limited knowledge? Surely individuals other than the Master of the Ravenwing, since he is a member of the Inner Circle. And surely more than the Chaplain himself (more on that later), since it states "members" - plural. This would imply that the Command Squad and the Ravenwing Sergeants know, but I would go even farther than that. I'd say every single member of the Ravenwing receives this limited knowledge. It later mentions: "To the Brethren of the 2nd Company, those they are ordered to capture are vile and debased heretic, renegades and traitors. All Dark Angels are trained to be deaf to their captives' lies and protestations, and the Ravenwing even more so, for traitors will seek to undermine faith in the Chapter and in the Lion himself. Their captive will speak terrible falsehoods of treachery and schism ..." I'm guessing that the actual instances of finding a Fallen must be rather rare. The same page in the Codex talks about how the Ravenwing can go decades without success in finding any of them. And let's face it. Unless the Ravenwing (and the Deathwing) only find a Fallen once or twice in a given Astartes' lifetime, it's going to get suspicious around the third time the traitor Space Marine the Ravenwing was sent to catch ended up being a Dark Angel. The fact that it takes so much time to find a Fallen, coupled with the fact that... "... in the meantime, they act as a conventional rapid strike force for the Dark Angels' battle companies..." ... leads me to believe that the Ravenwing as a whole rarely is sent after one or more Fallen. This in turn makes the likelihood that the Ravenwing are repeatedly exposed to the heresies of the Fallen much smaller. And that, in turn, leads me to believe that the "limited knowledge" the members of the Ravenwing are exposed to is the existence of the Fallen, minus any other context. One he joins the Deathwing, like any other Veteran, the Astartes would then ... "... begin to learn of the events that had transpired at the very dawn of the Age of the Imperium." (pg 11) As in, while with the Ravenwing you learn that there are Fallen and that you do not ask questions about the Fallen. They are traitors and lost to the Ruinous Powers, period. When you join the Deathwing, though, you begin getting the context and the background. I can't guess to what degree you get certain amounts of detail and information (it's stated that you learn more and more as you rise through the ranks of the Inner Circle), but I would imagine that - at the least - you now know that the Fallen were a group, they rebelled in concert, and this happened on Caliban. I think where Chaplains are concerned, you have three flavors of knowledge: 1. Regular Chaplain 2. Ravenwing Chaplain (who is the exception rather than the rule) 3. Interrogator-Chaplain When you look at the Force Organization Chart, there is no mention of a normal Chaplain within the Deathwing. And the Deathwing is qualified as the twenty Terminator Squads of the First Company. Beyond that, though, it's not much of a stretch. The section on Chaplains states that induction is a matter of trial and observation. If a Chaplain makes it, he makes it. If not, he gets mind-scrubbed and sent back to square one. Remember, this isn't the same as dealing with two normal humans. It's not like you're putting Guardsman Derek and Guardsman Hans through two completely different paths of progression ("You get to go from Company to Deathwing to Inner Circle, but YOU get to go from Company to Inner Circle!"). You're dealing with psycho-indoctrinated fanatics. And, specifically, you are dealing with the psycho-indoctrinated fanatics who are in charge of dealing with the moral threats arrayed against their Chapter. Their mentality, psychology, etc., was different from that of the average Battle-Brother as of Day One. Moving on. I believe that the Ravenwing's recruitment process is clear enough. Where the Deathwing is concerned, I believe they recruit Veterans, period. As such, there are two flavours of Veterans: those who are Deathwing-quality, and those who are not. Those who are not may rise to become Veteran Sergeants in their Company, but will never progress more. Those found worhty are inducted into the Deathwing. From there, they have one of three paths: 1. They might never get promoted and will likely stay with the Deathwing until they die. Unless, for one reason or another, they choose to go back to a Company (e.g., Apothecary Nestor from "Angels of Darkness") 2. They might get promoted to Deathwing Sergeant. If they never get promoted again, they will likely stay with the Deathwing until they die - with the same caveat at #1. Admittedly, I don't think there's evidence of a Deathwing Sergeant going back to a Company. 3. They might get promoted to Master, and take command of a Company. Concurrently, they will have joined the Inner Circle. Finally, I like to think that the central theme to the Dark Angels is that of "terrible nobility". I do see them as knights, and I see them as striving to be worthy of a worthy legacy - of Caliban, the Order, the Lion, being the First Legion, etc. But to the Inner Circle, this is a tragic legacy as well - one of betrayal and dark deeds. To protect their legacy and honour, the Inner Circle are thus prepared to do terrible things. Secrecy, conviction of cause, and hate certainly play a central role, but I think a grim nobility and adherence to Calibanite chivalry are every bit as important. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238813-my-take-on-the-workings-of-the-inner-circle/#findComment-2900252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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