'Slingshotting'

[greatcrusade08]

unfortunately myself and a few others dont agree with the working out, the result is the same, slingshotting is illegal.

but Ics can move away from a unit at a faster speed as they arent remaining with the unit.. there is no RAW that says if you start with a unit you move at the slowest speed, RAW says whilst you remain together

[Gentlemanloser]

But where's the rule that allows you to change your speed, mid move?

 

You can't start out with a max speed of 6" (as you do start 'together with the Squad'), then after moving 2.1+" away up your max speed to 12".

[greatcrusade08]

But where's the rule that allows you to change your speed, mid move?

 

You can't start out with a max speed of 6" (as you do start 'together with the Squad'), then after moving 2.1+" away up your max speed to 12".

 

again i bring up the "remains together", your assuming 'starts together' means your movement is reduced.. movement is slowest only if the Ic remains with the unit

its a dual punch becuase it allows for normal movement (whatever that may be) when breaking off from a unit (becuase they dont remain together) but also precludes the slingshot but you end up staying with the same unit, therefore remained together.

 

there doesnt need to be a rule that says you change your speed, since the rule that states move at the slowest speed only applies if the Ic remained with the unit.. it shows an aspect of past tense to it, i.e judged after the fact..

im only going by RAw here.. RAW says speed of the slowest whilst the Ic remains with the unit.. not starts... remains

[Morollan]

GC08 - Really can't be bothered to go over this all yet again but suffice to say, this has all been covered before and the conclusion we reached seems fairly solid RAW-wise.

[greatcrusade08]

GC08 - Really can't be bothered to go over this all yet again but suffice to say, this has all been covered before and the conclusion we reached seems fairly solid RAW-wise.

 

but it doesnt though.. just becuase youve interpreted it one way and have a few people agreeing with you doesnt make it fact.

simply put if it were that clear there wouldnt have been a ten page debate on it.

im giving you the direct of RAW in this case and IMO it carries more weight than your interpretation

and btw ive been arguing this from the beginning but youve been too happy to ignore me ;)

 

example chaplain with JP with tactical squad

your arguing that the JP is limited to 6" move when seperating from the squad.. yet the rule your quoting to support this is this:

the combind unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together

yet you ignore the whilst they stay together part.

heres the other one

an independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherancy with it

 

again your assuming hes limited to a 6" move, but no-where does it state this, it merely says 'move' which for an IC with JP is 12"

 

so what we have is a rule that says if they remain together an Ic is limted to slowest but he can move away if he wants to split off from the unit.

if he splits off hes therefore not staying with the unit and the movement restriction no longer applies.

the fact he was attached at the beginning of the turn carries no caveat of a movement restriction, the restriction only applies if the Ic remains with the unit

 

thats pure RAW

[Morollan]

I've not ignored it at all mate. I've answered it several times. The IC can split off during the movement phase but the check to determine coherency is at the end of the movement phase. Until that time he is bound by the 'move at the speed of the slowest' rule. I've not seen any argument that successfully refutes that point.

[greatcrusade08]

I've not ignored it at all mate. I've answered it several times. The IC can split off during the movement phase but the check to determine coherency is at the end of the movement phase. Until that time he is bound by the 'move at the speed of the slowest' rule. I've not seen any argument that successfully refutes that point.

 

people have been getting thier quotes wrong for some time in this thread, let me re-iterate some quotes, it might help shed some light onto the breakdown in comms.

 

coherancy is indeed checked at the end of the movement phase.. for ICS JOINING units

In order to join a unit, an independant character simply has to moveso that he is within the 2" coherancy distance of a friendly unit at the end of the movement phase.

 

the rule for leaving a unit shows its done DURING the movement phase

an independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherancy with it

if you moved the Ic and his unit before the other units in your army, then he would be considered detached before the end of the phase, its really that simple (you move one unit at a time according to page 11 of the BRB)

 

again i say being joined to a unit at the start of the turn carries no movement restriction, this restriction only applies if the unit and IC remain together (i.e are together at the end of the movement phase), since the Ic can break off before the end of the phase no movement restriction applies

[Morollan]

That's the problem with looking at rules in isolation. The IC rules don't overwrite the normal rules unless specifically stated to do so. The normal coherency rules (BRB pg 12) state that coherency is checked once the unit has finished moving. Nothing in the IC rules overwrites this.

[greatcrusade08]

That's the problem with looking at rules in isolation. The IC rules don't overwrite the normal rules unless specifically stated to do so. The normal coherency rules (BRB pg 12) state that coherency is checked once the unit has finished moving. Nothing in the IC rules overwrites this.

 

actually thats incorrect aswell.. it says nothing about the unit being 'checked' merely that after its moved every model in a unit must be within 2" of each other, and thats called "unit coherancy".

It makes no mention iof Ics being out of coherancy and that being checked either.

this does all seem like grasping at straws.

the IC rules for joining and leaving units are spelled out nicely in the Ic section.

 

while an IC is part of a unit, he must obey normal coherancy rules. the combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together

 

the act of leaving a unit is the act of moving out of coherancy, this overrides the rules on page 12 which states they must remains with 2"..

agains your not providing any evidence or quotes that show that an Ic is limited to slowest speed when leaving a unit

[Morollan]

If there's any grasping at straws going on here I think it's your argument that the rules on pg 12 don't apply because they don't mention ICs and don't specifically say 'checked'. That section is very clear. AFTER movement you check coherency by forming an imaginary chain between the models. You can call it what you will but it's very clearly establishing what coherency is, how we check it and when.

 

How does an IC leave a unit? By moving out of coherency. When is coherency checked? End of movement phase. When does an IC leave a unit? End of movement phase.

[Gentlemanloser]

GC, is the IC 'together' with the unit at the start of the movment phase?

 

Is it together when you start to move the combined unit?

 

When you start to move the combined unit, what speed do you use?

 

Are there any rules in the BRB at all, that let you start a move at one speed, and then part way through change it to another speed?

[greatcrusade08]

If there's any grasping at straws going on here I think it's your argument that the rules on pg 12 don't apply because they don't mention ICs and don't specifically say 'checked'. That section is very clear. AFTER movement you check coherency by forming an imaginary chain between the models. You can call it what you will but it's very clearly establishing what coherency is, how we check it and when.

 

How does an IC leave a unit? By moving out of coherency. When is coherency checked? End of movement phase. When does an IC leave a unit? End of movement phase.

 

wow, thats crazy.. first off its not end of movement phase, but end of that units move specifically.. thats a distinction thats getting lost on people.

page 12 applies to all units to make sure all elements of that unit are within coherancy, if the IC breaks cohenacy during the movement phase hes no longer part of that unit to be judged for coherancy.

 

secondly, and this is a question, regardless of when the Ic is considered to leave (note the rules by RAW state DURING not AFTER the movement phase) how does it affect the judgement on whether he is considered to remain with the unit?

if he isnt staying with the unit he can move his maximum movement, and at the end of the movement phase we can do a song and dance about at which points hes said to seperate from the unit, but either way the conclusion is that hes not remaining with the unit and therefore the movement restriction cannot apply

 

edit:

Is it together when you start to move the combined unit?

 

When you start to move the combined unit, what speed do you use?

since the rules state the Ic can seperate from the unit during the movement phase, then he is infact his own unit and can be moved independantly of the parent unit.. they do not move together.. infact the unit may not move at all..

the rules are clear that if the Ic leaves a unit that unit is not considered to have moved.. this wouldnt be true if your interpretation was correct

[Gentlemanloser]

are you now saying that if an Ic is attached to a dev squad, if the Ic moves away the dev squad cannot fire?

 

Yes, of course.

 

The unit moved, only if a single mini in the unit moved.

 

They are still a 'combined' unit until the IC has moved, and ends movement out of coherency.

 

Edit:

 

Here's a question if you deem the IC to be utterly seperate the moment you decide you want him to leave.

 

If the combined unit is hit by a power/ability (such as muderorus hurricane or the Thunderfire) that makes the 'unit' count as in difficult/dangerous terrain. If you detach the IC and move him seperately to the unit (as you suggest above) does the IC count as being in Difficult/Dangerous terrain, as he's no longer part of the 'unit' effected?

[greatcrusade08]

but thats incorrect as the rules point out clearly, if the Ic moves the unit hes with is not considered to move page 48 BRB

 

GC, is the IC 'together' with the unit at the start of the movment phase

it doesnt matter whether the Ic and unit are together, the movement restriction only applies if they stay together..

 

RAW remember :P

 

If the combined unit is hit by a power/ability (such as muderorus hurricane or the Thunderfire) that makes the 'unit' count as in difficult/dangerous terrain. If you detach the IC and move him seperately to the unit (as you suggest above) does the IC count as being in Difficult/Dangerous terrain, as he's no longer part of the 'unit' effected?

 

easy, as he is part of the unit when they are affected, when he splits off hes still affected by the difficult/dangerous terrain aspect.. just as if he were in a forest and split off from the unit

[Morollan]

wow, thats crazy.. first off its not end of movement phase, but end of that units move specifically.. thats a distinction thats getting lost on people.

 

That's fair enough and I was actually going to edit my post to amend that. It's not particularly relevant to the issue at hand though.

 

page 12 applies to all units to make sure all elements of that unit are within coherancy, if the IC breaks cohenacy during the movement phase hes no longer part of that unit to be judged for coherancy.

 

The point being that he cannot be found to have broken coherency until after his movement as that is the point at which coherency is checked.

 

secondly, and this is a question, regardless of when the Ic is considered to leave (note the rules by RAW state DURING not AFTER the movement phase) how does it affect the judgement on whether he is considered to remain with the unit?

and by the same token as your own argument (above) the rules say during the movement phase but after the movement of the unit/IC.

 

if he isnt staying with the unit he can move his maximum movement, and at the end of the movement phase we can do a song and dance about at which points hes said to seperate from the unit, but either way the conclusion is that hes not remaining with the unit and therefore the movement restriction cannot apply

 

That's kind of a circular argument as you're telling us that he can leave the unit and move his full distance because he's leaving the unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

it doesnt matter whether the Ic and unit are together, the movement restriction only applies if they stay together..

 

RAW remember

 

But it is RAW. :)

 

When you pick up a unit to move, you determin how far they can move then. If there is an IC with the unit as you pick it up, the combined unit can only move at the slowest speed.

 

Once movement has started (after you know how fast the unit can move), you then have the option to move the IC out of coherency with the unit to detach him.

 

But this option is after;

 

1) You have chosen to move the unit

2) You know how fast the combined unit can move

 

That's the RAW. :o

 

but thats incorrect as the rules point out clearly, if the Ic moves the unit hes with is not considered to move page 48 BRB

 

Would you mind quoting that? Don't have the BRB to hand. :P

[greatcrusade08]

the only rule that is poignant here is the one that says the following

whislt an Ic is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherancy rules. the combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together

 

if you guys are correct he cannot infact ever leave the unit, becuase if he is deemed to be part of the unit until after his movement he couldnt legally move out of coherancy.. it becomes a vicous cirlce of which rule takes precedence

the fact is the rules on an Ic leaving a unit are only covered on page 48, it show that he can leave a unit and that unit isnt considered to have moved, which wouldnt be the case had he been part of the unit up until the end of the phase (or even thier own speerate move), he must detach as soon as you pick up the model for this to be the case

 

edit for gentlemanloser :P

If an Ic moves and joins or leaves a unit that did not move, the Ic counts as having moved in the ensuing shooting phase but the unit does not

 

That's kind of a circular argument as you're telling us that he can leave the unit and move his full distance because he's leaving the unit.

intent is a big part of this rule, RAW says the movement is only restricted wholst the unit and Ic stay together, if you intend to move him away you get his full movement, if you intend for him to stay with the unit the restriction applies..

[Gentlemanloser]

Thanks!

 

Learn something new everyday. :P

 

Hmmm, that does imply that the IC moves seperatley to the unit they were with at the start of the turn.

 

Damned GW!

[greatcrusade08]

no worries, the reason i waited until now to really press my arguments is that there are seemingly 3 sides to this argument, and a 3 way never works (trust me children :P )

ive nothing more to add to this so it could become very circular.. i think we need to either decide which side is correct or throw this to the grey area wolves

[Isiah]

Perhaps someone would like to sum up those three sides/arguments to this topic please... in a cool logical way without any bias. If it still isn't resolved, then the Grey Area it is.

[greatcrusade08]

i shall try my very best.

 

argument one: (ala stelek)

since an Ic can detach during the movement phase and have his full movement, he can move 8" and be within 2" at the end of the movement phase (if the unit moves 6")

he will rejoin the unit as per the rules on page 48 and be 2/3" closer to the enemy.. this is called the slingshot.

 

argument 2

An Ic must alays move at the slowest speed during a turn in which he begins attached to a unit, this is becuase he isnt deemed to have broken coherancy until the end of the phase and wouldnt be considered a seperate unit until then, as per the rules on page 48 he must move at the slowest speed of the unit whilst part of that unit.

 

argument 3

An Ic only has to move at the slowest speed whilst he remains with the unit, he can seperate during the movement phase and therefore isnt restricted to the slowest movement of his former unit.

the rules on page 48 show that if an Ic seperates froma unit that unit is not considered to have moved giving credence o the argument that he seperates when he moves and not at the end of the phase

[Morollan]

the only rule that is poignant here is the one that says the following

whislt an Ic is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherancy rules. the combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together

 

if you guys are correct he cannot infact ever leave the unit, becuase if he is deemed to be part of the unit until after his movement he couldnt legally move out of coherancy.. it becomes a vicous cirlce of which rule takes precedence

the fact is the rules on an Ic leaving a unit are only covered on page 48, it show that he can leave a unit and that unit isnt considered to have moved, which wouldnt be the case had he been part of the unit up until the end of the phase (or even thier own speerate move), he must detach as soon as you pick up the model for this to be the case

 

He can leave the unit because the IC rules specifically tell us that he can "An independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." Once again though, I have to say that you check coherency after movement. So he does not leave the unit until his move is completed, at which stage he is considered to be a separate unit and thus whilst his move is completed his original unit has not moved and may therefore now do so.

[greatcrusade08]

firstly the rules for coherancy arent a 'check' what they are is a rule, it doesnt govern ICs leaving or joining a unit only that all members of each unit have to be within 2" at the end of the movement phase.. thats all, its the basic rules of moving a unit, make sure each model ends in coherancy.. it DOES NOT govern IC/unit coherancy, unless that Ic has stayed with the unit

i think your reading far too much into that one paragraph especially since the rules for ICs leaving and joining already have thier own defined set of rules.

 

secondly your arguments lack continuity, you have the answer you want and your intepreting all evidence to fit the answer.. and thats poor form IMO

where is the rule that says you check coherancy at the end of movement to see if the Ic has left the unit or not.. there isnt one, the rule clearly states an Ic can leave the unit DURING the movement phase by moving out of coherancy (i.e 2"), no checking no movement limitatons and not at the end.. DURING, and thats RAW

the only movement limitation comes via the rule that says "whilst they stay together", if the Ic leaves the unit, the Ic and the unit are not staying together.

 

infact since the ICs movement has no effect on the units movement (for shooting) then it adds credence to the fact that the Ic detaches straight away and not at the end of his movement.

 

you can interpret theserules they way you want, im not stopping you, but think about occums razor.. why do you need to interpret several rules from different areas of the book to prove your theory, when all my view takes is a literal reading of the rules on the specific subject

 

edit: think of it this way, the Ics normal movement Is his move, the restriction comes by way of a specific rule, the one that says if he remains with the unit.. if he doesnt remain with the unit the rule cannot be enforced.

the move at the slowest isnt the norm, its the exception to the norm that only works in certain circumstances

 

and again we are going in circles.. ive made my case, clearly i think.. now im leaving this to the powers that be..

[Brother Tual]

Very good.

 

Please,

 

Coherency is a status. Being joined to a unit means the same as being in coherency. This we all agree on.

 

An IC leaves a unit during the movement phase. We all agree.

 

A unit checks if all models within are in coherency by checking relevant distance at the end of their movement.

 

 

What is not agreed on,

 

An IC is part of a unit until the end of the movement phase (or unit movement - what ever. It makes no difference) however can leave coherency prior to this check but is considered part of this unit until this check.

 

An IC is not part of a unit as soon as he leaves through moving 2" away and is not required to be in coherency. There is no coherency check for the IC. The IC is his own unit on leaving.

 

Do we agree this is the issue?

 

============================================================================

 

What really happens.

 

Version 1

 

IC's can be joined to any eligible unit. IC's are attached and detached almost at will providing they dont breach very loose conditions. I.E vehicle squadrons etc.

 

IC's detach from units at will of the player. This is normal. All that happens is player says, 'detaching shrike and jumping him 12' to here." Normal move. I would say anyway. I would say perfectly legal regardless of the original parent unit type.

 

Version 2

 

We have all been playing the game wrong an Morollan is right. IC's cannot move more than the slowest model of the original parent unit.

 

=====================================================================================

 

What does this mean?

 

If GC08 is right and an IC is free to move its full distance because it is not part of the unit. If you are going to establish, at any point, that the IC is not part of a unit then he has to be deemed not to have stayed together. Sorry mate, but you cant have it both ways.

 

If Morollan is right an IC is considered part of a unit until the very end of the movement phase. IC's cannot move more than the slowest model of the original parent unit.

 

=========================================================================================

 

GC08 summed this issue up.

 

argument one: (ala stelek)

since an Ic can detach during the movement phase and have his full movement, he can move 8" and be within 2" at the end of the movement phase (if the unit moves 6")

he will rejoin the unit as per the rules on page 48 and be 2/3" closer to the enemy.. this is called the slingshot.

 

argument 2

An Ic must alays move at the slowest speed during a turn in which he begins attached to a unit, this is becuase he isnt deemed to have broken coherancy until the end of the phase and wouldnt be considered a seperate unit until then, as per the rules on page 48 he must move at the slowest speed of the unit whilst part of that unit.

 

argument 3

An Ic only has to move at the slowest speed whilst he remains with the unit, he can seperate during the movement phase and therefore isnt restricted to the slowest movement of his former unit.

the rules on page 48 show that if an Ic seperates from a unit that unit is not considered to have moved giving credence to the argument that he seperates when he moves and not at the end of the phase

 

Argument 1 - Slingshotting is legal.

 

When does an IC leave a unit? End of movement phase.

Post #260. Argument 2. Wrong. The rules state DURING. The IC leaves during the movement phase and is determined to have broken coherency at this point.

The IC can split off during the movement phase but the check to determine coherency is at the end of the movement phase. Until that time he is bound by the 'move at the speed of the slowest' rule. I've not seen any argument that successfully refutes that point.

This doesnt make sense. An IC can leave the unit but hasnt left it? What? Thats not what the rules say any way, The say 'leave a unit by moving out of coherency distance..' This is when the IC left. Not at the end of the turn. The unit checks for coherency at the end of the turn. Not what is IN the unit is checked at the end of the turn.

 

Argument 3. If you say an IC is not part of the unit, how can you say he remained with the unit even if he begins and ends within 2" of the unit? Slingshotting is legal.

 

Only one of the above versions is RAW. The other two rely on inferences or interpretaions to be true. (obviously the parts I highlighted reflect this.)

 

I still vote for me +1.

 

The game is not difficult. If 99% play it this way, it is the right way because it is THE way the game is played, unless you only play that 1% that do it differently.

[greatcrusade08]

If GC08 is right and an IC is free to move its full distance because it is not part of the unit. If you are going to establish, at any point, that the IC is not part of a unit then he has to be deemed not to have stayed together. Sorry mate, but you cant have it both ways.

 

tual has it pretty spot on, i would say to the above that your correct unless a player tries to reattach the Ic to the same unit in the same movement phase.. at that point if you start together and end together you remained together. (and never truelly left)

thats how i consider slingshotting illegal