'Slingshotting'

[thade]

This is the crux of it all, from my point of view:

 

If the IC remains with the unit, he's restricted by its Movement.

 

If the IC leaves and rejoins the same unit within the same unit phase, has he remained with the same unit? That is, what does "stays together with" mean?

 

This question (really, both of these questions) have no clear RAW answer. Thus, grey area.

[Something Wycked]

I don't think its all that grey. As Grey Mage pointed out, the IC has movement equal to the slowest model that he's attached to at the beginning of the movement phase. Nowhere is it written that the IC suddenly gains more movement after moving out of coherency- the rules that Tual quoted even said that the check for coherency is at the end of the phase. That right there puts the kibosh on the slingshot.

 

(as you can see you determine what is in coherency at the end of the movement phase.

Ergo, you check at the beginning of the Movement Phase- yes, the IC is in coherency, and his movement is 6". You don't make another check until the end of the Movement Phase and everything has finished its move. As Morollan pointed out, the IC does not magically have his move extended after going 2" in the middle of the phase. Dan VK supported this idea as well.

[ShinyRhino]

An independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it. (All an IC has to do is move away from a unit. Once more than 2" it is NO LONGER PART of the unit. An IC's movement does not end here. He can continue to move. As he is no longer part of a unit he can move in any direction at full pace, obviously 2" of his full move is used to break coherency. All the rules quoted above ENABLE the IC to move at full pace. They actually STATE this. As the coherency rules only apply to the final resing place of a unit, a unit can effectively move away from an IC and as soon as the closest model is 2" away the IC is no longer part of this unit and is not subject to movement restrictions or coherency rules. The key words are DURING, it is not the beginning, end or whatever but DURING and - by moving out of coherency DISTANCE. Coherency distance does not suffer the concept of 'what is' in coherency. It is a range of 2". Not a rule.)

 

 

Problem here is that I read "during the Movement phase" as a clarifying statement. It restricts the join/leave of the IC to the Movement phase, excluding the Assault and Shooting phases. It's not an allowance for extra movement, as at the BEGINNING of your player turn Movement phase, you assess what models are units. The IC and the Squad are joined as a singular unit when your Movement phase occurs. The IC can move away and end up as a separate unit at any point DURING that phase, but when qualifying his movement ability he was assessed as part of the Squad unit (who move at 6" per movement phase).

Because the IC starts as part of that unit, he uses the slowest model movement rate (6"). He's not removed from the unit until he hits 2" away. But before he can even move a hair's breadth, you have to determine his movement rate...6". You can't move 2", and suddenly gain 10" extra because you're wearing a jump pack or on a bike. You start with 6 and end with 6. There's no magical point at which you get bonus movement for hitting the 2" mark.

[Jacinda]

Coherency is a rule limiting the final resing place of models within a unit. It is not a governing aspect DURING model movement. This is clearly stated in the rules.

 

An IC can detach from a unit by moving out of coherency. This is not defined to happen at the end of the phase. This definition was invented on this forum.

 

I don't think I am following your argument here.

 

At the start of the movement phase he is either attached or he is not attached. No cat in a box, here; he can not be both at the same time. An IC leaves the unit by moving out of coherency.

 

Now I can see where there being two IC models attached to a unit and the first model moves out of coherency and jumps forward while the second IC remains with the unit, moves at the unit's slowest speed and moves into coherency with the first IC. This I get.

 

But that has a flaw as well. At least I think it does. Let me ask you if this will work.

 

Just so I can keep the wording here since a unit can be either a squad, a single model or even another IC, I will talk about a squads and IC's.

 

An IC joins a squad by moving into coherency with that squad. One IC can join another IC in the same way. A squad can not move into coherency with the IC, it has to be the IC that does the joining. Once an IC joins a squad, it is bound by rules affecting the squad, right? Moves at the slowest pace, has to fire at the same target, gets tanked shocked if the enemy tank clips part of the squad ... all that jazz. So can an IC that is attached to a squad move into coherency with an IC and thus attach him as well? Or is the IC attached to the squad limited by that squads rules of not being able to move into coherency with an IC? You can have more than one IC attached to a squad, no problem, but you can not have more than one squad attached to an IC. Now when we go back to talking about units; one unit can have more then one IC, but one IC can not be attached to more then one unit. So does the squad+ IC moving into coherency with the second unit (the other IC) mean that the ... god this is getting confusing.

 

OK: 3 units. Bob, Art (who are IC's) and a squad of dorks are all on the table. Bob is 1" in front of the squad of dorks. Art is bringing up the rear 1" behind the squad. Both Bob and Art are attached to the unit of dorks. Bob and the dorks have a 6" move because they are infantry. Art has a jump pack but is limited to the 6" movement of the unit of dorks he is attached to. Art leaves unit by jumping ahead and lands 7" in front of Bob, leaving Bob and the unit of dorks behind. Moved out of coherency so not bound by their movement. Bob and the dorks then move 6" forward. They move all at once as a unit. Can Bob's unit move within 2" of Art or is that a squad unit moving into coherency of an IC? If they do move forward, can Bob then join Art since he is attached to one unit already? An IC joins a unit by moving into coherency with that unit, not the other way around, so Art could not join the dorks, nor could he join Bob even if Bob were not already attached. Bob is the one moving so he is the one doing the attaching.

 

Does that make sense? If you can solve that puzzle for me I think I might add this trick with a twist to my tactics.

 

Thanks for the help.

[thade]

Something to consider about "staying together". Since an IC can only leave a unit by moving out of coherency (which is determined at the end of the Movement phase, not during) then moving the IC first or last is irrelevant entirely. If at the end of the phase, he's still going to end up attached to the same unit - regardless of how - then his attached state hasn't changed. If he moved further than the slowest model in that unit, he broke a rule.

 

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone!

 

EDIT: broken tag

[Dan VK]

An IC joins a squad by moving into coherency with that squad. One IC can join another IC in the same way. A squad can not move into coherency with the IC, it has to be the IC that does the joining.

That is incorrect. If the independent character and the unit are within coherency at the end of the Movement phase, the independent character is attached to the unit, regardless of which moved most recently.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just to add to the points above, I see a slight contradiction in Brother Tuals assessment.

 

All an IC has to do is move away from a unit. Once more than 2" it is NO LONGER PART of the unit. An IC's movement does not end here. He can continue to move. As he is no longer part of a unit he can move in any direction at full pace, obviously 2" of his full move is used to break coherency.

 

as you can see you determine what is in coherency at the end of the movement phase.

 

This is the crux right here.

 

You agree that you note/measure coherency at the end of the movement phase.

 

For the IC to leave, it needs to be out of coherency.

 

You don't note/measure this until the end of the phase.

 

The IC cannot leave the unit prior to this, just by the direction/length of it's move.

 

The book quote on IC's leaving, just for clarity.

 

An independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it.

 

Edit;

 

An IC can detach from a unit by moving out of coherency. This is not defined to happen at the end of the phase. This definition was invented on this forum.

 

Didn't you just rule for that in your post though?

 

as you can see you determine what is in coherency at the end of the movement phase.

 

:/

[Jacinda]

An IC joins a squad by moving into coherency with that squad. One IC can join another IC in the same way. A squad can not move into coherency with the IC, it has to be the IC that does the joining.

That is incorrect. If the independent character and the unit are within coherency at the end of the Movement phase, the independent character is attached to the unit, regardless of which moved most recently.

Cool!

 

I'll take your word over that of the blog on the other site.

 

So I could have an IC on foot attached to a unit with jump packs. The IC moves forward 6" and thus out of coherency. This would leave my jump troops able to move in front of the IC and bubblewrap him from the up coming assualt. This sound much more usefull to me than putting your IC in base to base with every powerfist the enemy has ....

[Something Wycked]

So I could have an IC on foot attached to a unit with jump packs. The IC moves forward 6" and thus out of coherency. This would leave my jump troops able to move in front of the IC and bubblewrap him from the up coming assualt.

Unfortunately that's not the conclusion the thread has come to. There are two checks for coherency- one at the beginning of the movement phase and one at the end, after everything has moved. Models move at the speed of the slowest model in their unit at the start of the movement phase.

[Jacinda]

I understand, but the conclusion of the guys I play with is different ^.^

 

They agree that coherency is a simple matter of placement. You can move in and out of coherency during the movement phase because you are ... moving! but the state of coherency is not something that happens at the end of the movement phase. After an assualt it is very possible to not be in coherency, for example, so the next chance that unit has it must move into coherency.

 

No, really, I think it makes more sense your way. Everything in a phase happens at the same time. More specifically, anything that happens to a unit happens at the same time. As soon as I say "I am going to move this IC" I have activated that unit. All of them. They then all move at the unit's speed which is the slowest speed. The guys I play with just declare that an IC is not attached to a unit and move him away. I am not sure I can convience them otherwise. Considering how often I have Saint Celestine fly in to join a unit for an assualt and then fly off 12" on the next turn, I am not sure I want to. >.>

[greatcrusade08]

I understand, but the conclusion of the guys I play with is different ^.^

 

They agree that coherency is a simple matter of placement. You can move in and out of coherency during the movement phase because you are ... moving! but the state of coherency is not something that happens at the end of the movement phase. After an assualt it is very possible to not be in coherency, for example, so the next chance that unit has it must move into coherency.

the rules cover this clearly, they are still considered attached, and part of the same unit, hence the instruction that they must move back into coherancy asap

 

No, really, I think it makes more sense your way. Everything in a phase happens at the same time. More specifically, anything that happens to a unit happens at the same time. As soon as I say "I am going to move this IC" I have activated that unit. All of them. They then all move at the unit's speed which is the slowest speed. The guys I play with just declare that an IC is not attached to a unit and move him away. I am not sure I can convience them otherwise. Considering how often I have Saint Celestine fly in to join a unit for an assualt and then fly off 12" on the next turn, I am not sure I want to. >.>

tbh i play it free and loose too, a JP Ic chooses to leave a unit and moves 12" despite the unit being infantry.. i think the resolution here is that the slingshot is an illegal move

the rest can be down to local preference

 

edit, thade said it best:

This is the crux of it all, from my point of view:

 

If the IC remains with the unit, he's restricted by its Movement.

 

If the IC leaves and rejoins the same unit within the same unit phase, has he remained with the same unit? That is, what does "stays together with" mean?

[thade]

While that particular quote of mine was taken out of context, it does now comply with my refined view of the matter. It only took me eight pages of reading and banging my head on my keyboard. :wacko:

 

See my most recent post where I sung.

 

If your group enjoyed sling shotting, well that's that.

 

The correct interpretation seems to be this: if at the end of the phase, the IC is attached to the same unit - regardless of how it happened - the IC has "remained attached" and thus his speed should have been restricted.

[Brother Tual]

I will reply to these posts in full later,

 

The rule is not written 'move out of coherency' it is written 'move out of coherency DISTANCE' - this is not refering to the state of the model (is it joined or not) it is refering to the relative postion. This can happen at any time during the movement phase.

 

It is important to note a unit does not have to start the phase in coherency, it normaly does becuase it finishes its previous turn in coherency, but coherency is never determined until the end of the phase.

 

The rules state - "An independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it..." how can the IC still be 'joined' if it has left it by simply being moving away? The reference in the rule to coherency is refering to 2" of seperation, not to the status of 'joined'

 

 

This is the crux right here.

 

You agree that you note/measure coherency at the end of the movement phase.

 

For the IC to leave, it needs to be out of coherency.

 

You don't note/measure this until the end of the phase.

 

The IC cannot leave the unit prior to this, just by the direction/length of it's move.

 

This kind of thinking neglects the last three words of "An independant character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

 

As soon as you add it look what happens,

 

You agree that you note/measure coherency at the end of the movement phase.

 

For the IC to leave, it needs to be out of coherency DISTANCE.

 

You don't note/measure this until the end of the phase. - You measure this distance DURING THE MOVEMENT PHASE.

 

The IC cannot leave the unit prior to this, just by the direction/length of it's move. YES YOU CAN, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE RULES SAY

[ShinyRhino]

Distance wording or no distance wording, you still haven't explained how the IC magically skirts the "Move at the speed of the slowest model" rule. When he starts the phase, he's in coherency with the unit, and so part of that unit. The unit's movement rate is 6". When you declare the IC to be moving away from the unit, he's still part of the unit, so he moves at 6". He can move 2.0001" away from the unit, but he won't magically gain 6 more inches of movement. When you declared his move, it was limited to 6". There is no rule that says "once you get to 2.0001 inches (outside coherency distance) you can reevaluate your movement rate."

[Marshal Wilhelm]

tbh thats where i see the problem.

Tuals run down of the RAW rule is pretty spot on, however you dont read rules in a vaccuum..

here we have a set of rules that shows through several complex mechanics that steleks slingshot is technically legal, but in order for it to be legal we have to accept that a whole seperate rule is defunct under that interpretation of those mechanics.

that should stop most people, and make them think that perhaps their interpretation is wrong?

 

what we have here is interpretation of rules for gain, whether its legally correct is in doubt, but whether its morally correct is in no doubt.. and even TOs IMO will see that.

to recommend it as a tactic under the grey area ruleslawyer BS, is a douche move and stelek should be ashamed of himself, hes just hoping no-one will argue against it, becuase lets face it the counter argument to steleks slingshot has alot of weight..

you cant just igore one whole rule becuase you interpret the mechanics of a seperate rule/s to contradict it.

 

by all means lets put this in the grey area section, but lets not forget that we all know which side of this bread really is buttered.

 

I'm with GC08 100% on this one. The interpretation as per Stelek is fine.... as long as you ignore "moves at the same rate". We know what that rule is about, and so that gives clarity to the naughty version of the Slingshot.

 

A similar argument, as I had said before, was about the transport and then passengers getting assaulted by the one unit. The exception [just like "moves at the same rate"] makes it clear how the Assault rules are to work in that situation.... But.... the exception says refer to the Assault rules after mentioning, on BBB pg 67, "if it is allowed to assault according to the assault rules." And so according to the exception itself, the exception gets ignored by its very own verbage.

 

Surely that is not how the exception is to be read, and of course it isn't.

 

Likewise, the very same 'issue' with Slingshot'ing is made clear by "moves at the same rate".

 

+++

 

My question to anyone cheeky enough to pull this on me would be, 'So what is the "moves at the same rate" rule about?' And they'd look down and shuffle their feet, and let out a red faced 'ummm, some other kind of situation with ICs and units combined...?'

"No mate, it is exactly for this one."

'....yes, I knew it all along.... sorry....' with a weak head nod in recognition of his attempted cheek.

 

:D

 

It seems that most are willing to recognise that the "moves at same rate" is the lens that IC joining and leaving is to be seen through, so I'm pretty much done :)

[Brother Tual]

That rule only applies whilst the IC is within 2" of the unit. You can get your IC to be more than 2" away a number of ways, disembarking is one. At this point, the IC is no longer part of the unit and is free to move.. He is not subjetc to the 'move at the slowest model' He can move his full distance, end his move within 2" and 'slingshot' the unit forward.

[greatcrusade08]

That rule only applies whilst the IC is within 2" of the unit. You can get your IC to be more than 2" away a number of ways, disembarking is one. At this point, the IC is no longer part of the unit and is free to move.. He is not subjetc to the 'move at the slowest model' He can move his full distance, end his move within 2" and 'slingshot' the unit forward.

 

my question to this rebuttle would be, what is the point?

if by moving the Ic first you avoid the "moves at the slowest speed" limitation, why not just move your IC first in every situation and avoid it all together.

its wrong that the rule can be thrown aside so easily, so there must be something wrong with the way we are applying our interpretation of the mechanics

[Brother Tual]

I agree but it is what it actually says... the rule only applies while the IC is part of the unit. I didnt write the rules my friend.. I cant answer your question.

[Grey Mage]

That rule only applies whilst the IC is within 2" of the unit. You can get your IC to be more than 2" away a number of ways, disembarking is one. At this point, the IC is no longer part of the unit and is free to move.. He is not subjetc to the 'move at the slowest model' He can move his full distance, end his move within 2" and 'slingshot' the unit forward.

Sorry Tual, but thats wrong- there is no incremental movement. You move by measuring the distance, and then placing the model in its new position. You cant magically change speeds once hes beyond 2".

[Gentlemanloser]

Brother Tual, if that was the case, the moment you move a single mini in a unit more than 2" away from it's fellows, the unit is now out of coherency, as that single mini is out of coherency distance.

 

Coherency, in all cases isn't decided until the end of the movement phase.

[thade]

The terms "coherency" and "coherency distance" are the same thing. Coherency in 40k is itself defined as a being within a distance of 2", so the redundant term "coherency distance" bears no special meaning on its own.

 

Coupled with the fact that Movement is not incremental and we simply can't disregard the restriction on Movement speed.

[Brother Tual]

Brother Tual, if that was the case, the moment you move a single mini in a unit more than 2" away from it's fellows, the unit is now out of coherency, as that single mini is out of coherency distance.

 

Coherency, in all cases isn't decided until the end of the movement phase.

 

What are you saying? It doesnt matter where models are moved during the movement phase, as long as the final resting place is 2" from another unit. Thats the coherency rules. Like you said, "Coherency, in all cases isn't decided until the end of the movement phase." It doesnt matter what happens inbetween unless you are talking about IC's.

 

Thade,

The terms "coherency" and "coherency distance" are the same thing. Coherency in 40k is itself defined as a being within a distance of 2", so the redundant term "coherency distance" bears no special meaning on its own.

 

No, Coherency is rule relating to the 'staus' of a unit - a unit must comply to be placed legally. Coherency distance is 2" - a model can be LESS than 2" and still be in coherency. Some units have coherency distance of 4" yet are still in coherency (status) providing they meet the unit requirements. They didnt write coherency distance for no reason. They are referring to 2" range. Not status.

 

Grey,

 

Sorry Tual, but thats wrong- there is no incremental movement. You move by measuring the distance, and then placing the model in its new position. You cant magically change speeds once hes beyond 2".

 

You are right, Dont be sorry, call it how you see it. For all intents and purposes the rules (move at the slowest) are most likely written to apply to an IC who starts and finishes its turn with the unit. The rules are not actually written in a way supporting this. Call this grey (I would say its something you shouldnt do but cant stop) The rules say, 'whilst part of' (to be subject to rule) and 'moves 2" away' (to break being considered part of)

 

What I see,

 

Unit A is a tactical squad -

 

Unit B is an assault squad -

 

The IC is shrike -

 

Example 1

 

Shrike is part of unit A - Unit B is nearby -

 

I move unit B full movement -

 

I detach Shrike and jump 12" to join Unit B - (You will claim this illegal - shrike is subject to slowest model - I would say his move is making him not part of the unit and no longer subject to restriction)

 

Unit A moves.

 

I would not have raised an eyebrow to this movement. I would have allow it. It is a normal move.

 

Example 2

 

Shrike is part of unit B -

 

I move unit A

 

I detach Shrike form unit B and join unit A moving 12' (I can slingshot them?)

 

I move unit B

 

This is perfectly legal however the other way round is not?

 

Which unit do you consider the 'slowest model?' the one he starts with? the one he ends with? neither? He is technically part of both units at some time in this phase.

 

Comments?

[greatcrusade08]

Comments?

 

IMO that example is perfectly legal.. however if a third example was this:

 

Shrike is part of unit A (infantry)

 

shrike leaves the unit and moves 8" (perfectly legal IMO)

 

Unit A moves 6" and within 2"

 

end of turn the two join to become one unit.

 

that would be legal, if it werent for the Ic rules that state you must move aty the slowest speed whilst the Ic remains with the unit..

 

my question is when do you determine whether an Ic remains with the unit?

i say that if an Ic begins with the unit and ends with the unit he has remained with them, regardless of any mechanics interpretation.

i dont think its right that mechaniocs can be used to ignore a set rule such as this

[Morollan]

Example 1

 

Shrike is part of unit A - Unit B is nearby -

 

I move unit B full movement -

 

I detach Shrike and jump 12" to join Unit B - (You will claim this illegal - shrike is subject to slowest model - I would say his move is making him not part of the unit and no longer subject to restriction)

 

Unit A moves.

 

I would not have raised an eyebrow to this movement. I would have allow it. It is a normal move.

 

No, because he is subject to the movement rate of Unit A for that movement phase. Move him 6" and join Unit B and you're fine.

 

Example 2

 

Shrike is part of unit B -

 

I move unit A

 

I detach Shrike form unit B and join unit A moving 12' (I can slingshot them?)

 

I move unit B

This is perfectly legal however the other way round is not?

 

Which unit do you consider the 'slowest model?' the one he starts with? the one he ends with? neither? He is technically part of both units at some time in this phase.

 

Comments?

 

Seems okay because you are only moving Shrike at the speed of the slowest model in the unit that he was part of at the start of the movement phase. He is not part of two units because he leaves A and joins B and we are told that he must declare which unit he is attached to at the end of the movement phase if there is more than one option. The important point is that he abides by the rules that say he can only move at the speed of B during that movement phase. In this case that is 12" so you're fine.

[greatcrusade08]

i dont buy the "move at the slowest speed of the unit he started with"

thats not what the rule says

its says "whilst they remain together", if an IC leaves a unit they arent together and his movement is no longer restricted