What will our GK Codex be known for?

[Gunslinger87]

Strike are ok, I don't think they're really overpriced or underpriced. They definitely have a lot of extra weaponry for 5 points over a normal marine but don't have access to low AP weaponry (plasma/melta) and don't gain any durability making them 25% less durable. All in all the costs and benefits seem to match pretty well.

 

Anyways I think paladins will be the most memorable part of the codex. Terminators on steroids.

I agree, Strikes certainly are the last place I'd look for something that could possibly make the codex OP.

 

Really? Compare a tactical space marine with a strike... and say that again. Grey hunters might be on the same level, but 5 points extra for something that costs 15 points in all other books (minus force weapon status, but really, how often do you use that so I wont be like others and use force weapon costs) but more importantly can only come on squad leaders and you still think it isnt overpowered? Sure there are other things that are more "slap in the face" but like I said before, the biggest source of OP is when an almost randomly picked list from one codex beats a fine tuned one from the other...

 

And for those that say how poor little GK codex is so misunderstood and really a nice little cuddly toy... and if only people would learn to play they wouldnt complain so much, i tell you this: (keep in mind that nobody needs to learn how to play a balanced codex) people are much well versed in simple logic and mathematics than strategy. Yes, one can make up an unbalanced codex with strategy, but he shouldnt need to. Chances are I could probably beat many of you in chess without a bishop or knight... most of you without a castle/rook.... but does that mean our "lists" would be well matched? Everybody can make the calculation that having one extra piece in chess is probably a good thing. But how about half way into a game, were I to ask you whether youd rather have a knight or a bishop. A bishop or three pawns, or a queen in stead of a pawn a knight and a castle. Now in the most basic of terms, all of those combinations have an equal weight. But you have to be an excellent player to be able to judge when and where each is better.

 

And this is the case of what I call an obviously overpowered codex.

 

It doesnt take a genius to know that longfangs are better than devastators. That isnt to say that in x scenarios out of a 1000 a devastator isnt better, or that a good player might be better with devastators than a bad one with long fangs. However in essence, the distinction on points is very easy to make. Sure things like what is available for the rest if the army and so on play a role. However a codex simply shouldnt give one chess player more pieces than the other.

 

Analyzing a codex completely is impossible, as there are thousands of variables in play, so lets please stick to only those things that are undisputable. Please stop waving around the fallacious argument that GK isnt overpowered, just people are stupid not to notice its amazing balance. Balance is in the eyes of the beholder...

[Simo429]

While Space Marines was the first codex of 5th it still seems like an intermediate.

However when looking at balance within a codex I think its best to look at the true fifth edition codices and we see IG, SW, BA, DE, GK and Nids. Out of those armies I think 5of them are well balanced, in a competetive setting if you put those first 5 armies in in equal numbers it would come down to player skill rather than the book itself, Nids was a poorly written codex but can still perform well.

 

Comparing GK to Space Marines is a none starter for me, the Space Marine codex didn't have the luxury of seeing where fifth edition would take the game to be as well rounded as what came after.

[carnosaur93]

well. the spacemarine codex had the luxury of setting the standart, being the first 5th ed codex, thats why its nice to compare to. keeping that standart in mind it wouldnt be too hard to make something of equal power, its not like they have to write codexi blindly.

 

i must say though, that the GK are balanced in the respect that you can choose whatever you fancy (c:csm is a prime example of internal imbalance) , and its still effective, so its balanced within itself. however when you start comparing to other 'dexes, its just rediculous

 

(i should find my late-night anger ramblings in where i more or less made half a codex for GK's, and then polish it to an actual product... making rules is really not all that hard)

 

back on topic: i still cling to my opinion on what will be remembered, and the fact that it saddens me to have one of my favorites in 40k destroyed by such an bookly abomination... i would give myself a 25% point handicap (or more) if an opponent came and wanted to play with a GK army from the old dex

[Tenno]

i hope its known as being matt wards last dex

[carnosaur93]

i hope its known as being matt wards last dex

 

THIS!

[Red Lost Soldier]

Really? Compare a tactical space marine with a strike... and say that again. Grey hunters might be on the same level, but 5 points extra for something that costs 15 points in all other books (minus force weapon status, but really, how often do you use that so I wont be like others and use force weapon costs) but more importantly can only come on squad leaders and you still think it isnt overpowered?

The GKSS/SM sergeant comparison is done often, and is foolish. To get the same amount of combat potential from GKSS to a SM sergeant with a power weapon would cost 60pt, as each GK only brings 1 equivalent attack to the table. The GKSS solution now costs more, but does better in shooting. Ablative wounding makes the SM sergeant slightly more advantageous also, which is why you don't see VV squads with all power weapons. Cost to survivability ratio is always in favour of anyone but GKSS, as GKSS die just as easily as any other marine but cost 25% more. As pointed out earlier, why do most GK players choose to avoid GKSS (and those who do take GKSS like myself rely on shooting far more than combat) while most SW players take as many GH as they can? All internet chatter is overruled by tabletop behaviour at the end of the day.

 

Sure there are other things that are more "slap in the face" but like I said before, the biggest source of OP is when an almost randomly picked list from one codex beats a fine tuned one from the other...

I have doubts that any "randomly" picked GK list would do well against any fine tuned list from any codex, bar a few older 4th Ed cases. Depends how you define randomly I suppose.

 

It doesnt take a genius to know that longfangs are better than devastators. That isnt to say that in x scenarios out of a 1000 a devastator isnt better, or that a good player might be better with devastators than a bad one with long fangs. However in essence, the distinction on points is very easy to make. Sure things like what is available for the rest if the army and so on play a role. However a codex simply shouldnt give one chess player more pieces than the other.

The LF/Devastator case is different. Two units, of which one has the exact same equipment plus extra rules and bonuses for the same points cost is obviously unbalanced, unless there is a mitigating factor in the interaction with the rules somewhere else in the codex. Argueably it could be the ability to take ablative wounds in this case but I don't think that stacks up.

 

Analyzing a codex completely is impossible, as there are thousands of variables in play, so lets please stick to only those things that are undisputable. Please stop waving around the fallacious argument that GK isnt overpowered, just people are stupid not to notice its amazing balance. Balance is in the eyes of the beholder...

What you define as undisputable, I would dispute. I do not think I would be alone in that. I would ask you please stop calling other arguements fallacious. We do not have a objective way of measuring so called 'overpowerdness' in an entire codex, as tournament rankings have many confounding variables that cannot be controlled.

 

I would hope that the GK codex is remembered for being a massive update, in both models and rules, that brought diversity and life into an old but much beloved codex. Time will tell.

[BrotherWasted]

I think it will be known for cheese and the people that cry that will be known for not understanding the game enough to know that it is a well balanced codex.

well balanced? tell that to our 20 points grey knights who laugh at normal marines. they should be around 23 to 25 points IMO instead of 20. :P. Its crazy to even think that we can now field 60 of them in power armour in a 1750 points list and create an extremely competitive list.

 

thanks

antique_nova

Strikes aren't as good as grey hunters.

 

Great they have power weapons but they have 1 attack 2 on the charge, they also only have a small percentage of Ap2 with their shooting. They are marines that aren't as good in combat.

 

If Strikes were as good as you think why do some many forego them in favour of Paladins or paying the Crowe tax or taking Coteaz?

 

Because they want to play a different kind of list, or use silly little henchmen? For the record, Strikes and Purifers are the bane of Paladins. Pallies cost more than twice as much as either Strikes or Purifiers, but still have Force Weapons to abuse. And I can take more Strikes in an army than I can Purifiers. For a basic troop choice, they do their job (shooting) damn well, better than any other Marine variant, and better than a squad of Fire Warriors.

 

For a Troop choice, Strikes are fine in combat, even though I agree that is where they don't want to be. Watch me charge my Strikes into your Grey Hunters and see what happens. If I haven't already wiped out half of your squad from my shooting (because, y'know I can unload 8 Storm Bolters and 2 Psycannons into you first), I'll easily mop up the rest with S5 Power Weapons. It's all about who gets the charge. Grey Knights are better than Vanilla Marines, but in my experience, they tough out the fights as well as Grey Hunters.

 

Of course, the flipside is that my Strikes will crumble through attrition if you charge me. This is to be expected; they're a troop choice, not a squad of Paladins.

 

I would have to strongly disagree with the idea that most people only play Paladins/Purifiers/Henchmen. It's just not the case and totally depends on where you play.

[antique_nova]

I think it will be known for cheese and the people that cry that will be known for not understanding the game enough to know that it is a well balanced codex.

well balanced? tell that to our 20 points grey knights who laugh at normal marines. they should be around 23 to 25 points IMO instead of 20. :D. Its crazy to even think that we can now field 60 of them in power armour in a 1750 points list and create an extremely competitive list.

 

thanks

antique_nova

Strikes aren't as good as grey hunters.

 

Great they have power weapons but they have 1 attack 2 on the charge, they also only have a small percentage of Ap2 with their shooting. They are marines that aren't as good in combat.

 

If Strikes were as good as you think why do some many forego them in favour of Paladins or paying the Crowe tax or taking Coteaz?

 

Because they want to play a different kind of list, or use silly little henchmen? For the record, Strikes and Purifers are the bane of Paladins. Pallies cost more than twice as much as either Strikes or Purifiers, but still have Force Weapons to abuse. And I can take more Strikes in an army than I can Purifiers. For a basic troop choice, they do their job (shooting) damn well, better than any other Marine variant, and better than a squad of Fire Warriors.

 

For a Troop choice, Strikes are fine in combat, even though I agree that is where they don't want to be. Watch me charge my Strikes into your Grey Hunters and see what happens. If I haven't already wiped out half of your squad from my shooting (because, y'know I can unload 8 Storm Bolters and 2 Psycannons into you first), I'll easily mop up the rest with S5 Power Weapons. It's all about who gets the charge. Grey Knights are better than Vanilla Marines, but in my experience, they tough out the fights as well as Grey Hunters.

 

Of course, the flipside is that my Strikes will crumble through attrition if you charge me. This is to be expected; they're a troop choice, not a squad of Paladins.

 

I would have to strongly disagree with the idea that most people only play Paladins/Purifiers/Henchmen. It's just not the case and totally depends on where you play.

 

and the great thing is! we don't have to activate our force weapons to instant death psykers or daemons! :P