The defiler.

[nurglephill]

I think this is OK to post here...chaos though...that is OK right?

 

 

 

I am beginning to think...well no I AM thinking that Defilers are the way to go.

 

A vindicator is OK, two are good and three great (so I am told) BUT only really with the Daemon possession upgrade which makes them 145pts each, which means they are about the same money as the Defiler which already has the Daemon Possession rule. The Defiler also has two dreadnought CC weapons, a reaper autocannon, a heavy flamer AND a battle cannon with a side order of 'fleet' rolled in.

 

So it can do a lot more harm from a much greater range, AND pack more of a CC punch than your dreadnought, especially if you trade the HF for another dreadnought CC arm...for free

 

So, rather than take three Vindicators why not take three defilers? Honestly I do not know.

 

Now (I am deliberately ignoring the Oblits for the moment) is there a reason, a sound one, that says Vindi's ARE worth it in comparison? Yes they have a big pie plate of doom, but the range is short and they die faaaaast when only one or two are used and that IS all they can do, once you get a weapon destroyed result that it is, you have a bit of terrain.

 

 

The second thing I want to ask is what is the best load out on the Defiler?

 

I have looked through the entry and for a Nurgle army with all the bolter rounds etc that we lay down do we need a HF on a defiler over another Dread CC arm? I think no and so I want 3 CC arms on mine.

The reaper, you can have a 4th CC arm, twin linked heavy bolter or a lascannon. Now I am discounting the lascannon for me it is too expensive to be worth it and keeping the Defilers points down is a good thing leaving the HB or extra CC arm upgrades which are free.

With an extra weapon the weapon destroyed results become less disastrous (the CC arms don't count for that roll right?) and the Reaper is cool in the right place. Also when considering the battle cannon the things you should be shooting at with that are less likely to be bothered by a lower strength HB than the S7 Reaper. So I have it between a Reaper and the extra CC arm.

 

I am building three Defilers and I am going with:

Defiler: 3 X DCCW, battle cannon, reaper X2

Defiler: 4 X DCCW, battle cannon

Each is 'only' the basic points value (can't say what that is but you know it...)

 

Let me finish by saying I am discounting the predator (not sold on it) and the havocs and oblits cos they ain't tanks.

 

CC please

[Brother Nihm]

So, rather than take three Vindicators why not take three defilers?

The tournament player would say: because they aren't Obliterators and can be taken out easily having a weak AV, not to mention the model is HUGE so you can't hide one, much less three.

 

The fluff player in me says go for it, 3 deffies on the table looks absolutely nuts, and people WILL shoot at them (possibly leaving your plagues alive a bit longer so they can get into position).

[greatcrusade08]

defilers are the fun choice, far more comical and enjoyable to use than vindies tbh.

the competative gamers are pretty accurate when they say vindies and oblits are better, but sometimes fluff and fun has to take precedence right?

i run two of the bad boys, and whilst on paper they look cool, mine usually fail... im still going to use them though, they are nice fire magnets after all.

just a couple of pointers:

dont charge dreads with I4 or better, treat the dreads like daemon princes and monstrous creatures (avoid them)... if you can get hold of a nice juicy tac/assault squad your laughing.

WS3 is joke, your only hitting half the time, so those many ccw attacks soon becomes very few actual wounds, again dont charge anything that can hit back very hard, your not a killy unit more of a take hold of and squeeze over several turns unit.

 

the battlecannon precludes you from shooting the reaper and heavy flamer as its ordinance, its always nice to have a back-up weapon though and ive often found the reaper to be a better choice against light vehciles as its twin linked

 

have fun mate, they may not be uber units, but mine always make me smile

[Brother Ambroz]

Try to always run 2x CCW. They're alot of fun to use IF you can make it into combat with them. Usually if your opponent is rolling normally you can get at least one into CC. They'll usually wreck anything that's not a walker or montrous creature. Might want to be careful about hammernators too though. I'd say go for it, I would take 3 defilers but they're just so pricy that I could only afford one at the moment. Try to include a little extra anti-tank though somewhere in case your defilers do get taken out early.

 

Edit: Brother Nihm is very right about opponents shooting them. People are always so scared of them, I'm not sure if it's the battlecanon or just that they look menacing but they always get shot up first turn. They're also very good against multiple wound models that are T4.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Concur with the opponents targeting them. They're not incredibly impressive stat wise, but psychologically they are big and scary and they draw fire. And if they're not being shot at, well, then you have the option to lob Battle Cannon shots or Fleet your DCCWs into something tasty. It's a win-win situation.

[nurglephill]

Well, thank you for your replies! I confess it feels nice when you think about something, post about it, and people say 'we think you have about got it' XD

 

I am not a huge fan of the model to be frank but I have an idea to use the legs and not the upper section (which is P.A.N.T.S).

 

But I always just thought I would get three vindicators and never really considered the defiler. Until I realised that a vindi only works with daemon possession which makes it as expensive as a defiler....which has so much more threat potential.

 

I agree with the CC comment though and this is one of the few issues I have with the Chaos dex (which overal I think is good) and that is the lack of a hard CC unit. Only the DP really is a CC monster because everything else either has a low 'S' or like the defiler a poor 'I' or 'WS'

 

ANYway

 

thanks for the comments and the help :)

[nurglez]

Personally, I hate the way the defiler looks (with the "top body section"), and I have 2 vindicators, so I often use those when I run chaos. I've seen a nice conversion for the defiler, which uses the tau piranha? as the top body bit, and a tail with a count as battle cannon energy weapon.

 

The rule of thumb is that 1 is ok, 2 is good and 3 is great. as more of the same unit is way more effective. I hate using oblitorator's with my chaos, prefering havocs or vindicators as my heavy support too.

 

As mentioned above, watch out for the ws3 and I3, but due to fleet, you can have it shooting for a few turns and then rush in to try and squash a tank or squad that gets too close. The vindicator can also tank shock, which the defiler cant, but the defiler can tar pit units, which the vindicator cant. so they both have pros and cons ^_^

 

edit: found the picture

 

http://tentakelgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/wip-defiler3.jpg

[minigun762]

But I always just thought I would get three vindicators and never really considered the defiler. Until I realised that a vindi only works with daemon possession which makes it as expensive as a defiler....which has so much more threat potential.

 

I agree with the CC comment though and this is one of the few issues I have with the Chaos dex (which overal I think is good) and that is the lack of a hard CC unit. Only the DP really is a CC monster because everything else either has a low 'S' or like the defiler a poor 'I' or 'WS'

 

As someone who only uses Defilers for heavy support, I'm a big fan of them. My favorite part of them is the flexibility, they are rarely the best choice but they do have an answer to almost anything in the game.

 

Compared to Vindicators, you lose out on the stronger cannon, the smaller target and the better front armor but you gain range, better side armor and the ability to be a gun platform or CC beast. With the Defiler, you have to remember that you're basically a Dreadnought. You're great a tarpitting units without power fists or equivalents because even krak grenades do next to nothing (hitting on 6's and immune to many results) but against bigger units you need to pair them up with your Daemon Prince or a squad of Berzerkers and hit the target with both.

 

Lastly, get used to seeing them killed off. They make great bullet sponges and AV12/possession lets them absorb a reasonable amount of fire. Also, don't forget you have smoke, many people do forget.

[Vissah]

But I always just thought I would get three vindicators and never really considered the defiler. Until I realised that a vindi only works with daemon possession which makes it as expensive as a defiler....which has so much more threat potential.

 

I agree with the CC comment though and this is one of the few issues I have with the Chaos dex (which overal I think is good) and that is the lack of a hard CC unit. Only the DP really is a CC monster because everything else either has a low 'S' or like the defiler a poor 'I' or 'WS'

 

As someone who only uses Defilers for heavy support, I'm a big fan of them. My favorite part of them is the flexibility, they are rarely the best choice but they do have an answer to almost anything in the game.

 

Compared to Vindicators, you lose out on the stronger cannon, the smaller target and the better front armor but you gain range, better side armor and the ability to be a gun platform or CC beast. With the Defiler, you have to remember that you're basically a Dreadnought. You're great a tarpitting units without power fists or equivalents because even krak grenades do next to nothing (hitting on 6's and immune to many results) but against bigger units you need to pair them up with your Daemon Prince or a squad of Berzerkers and hit the target with both.

 

Lastly, get used to seeing them killed off. They make great bullet sponges and AV12/possession lets them absorb a reasonable amount of fire. Also, don't forget you have smoke, many people do forget.

 

Why would you been hitting him on a 6? The Defiler has a weapon skill so you hit them on atleast a 4.

[nurglephill]

Thank you for all the help guys, I do love this little section of this forum.

 

Can I ask.

 

Does everyone think Oblits are by far the best use of the HS slots?

[greatcrusade08]

Does everyone think Oblits are by far the best use of the HS slots?

 

best is entirely subjective.. theres no denying they are very good bang for your buck, however since they are so highly recommended i never use them.. (weird i know, but its my own protest against netlisting)..

las preds and vindicators are both very good choices taken in multiples, as are defilers.. theres no actual 'need' to use oblits if you didnt want to

[Brother Nihm]

The thing is, even after their nerf, Obliterators are still the best bang for the buck and they (along with Termicide) help plug the gaping hole our Codex has, namely the lack of reliable long range anti-tank weapons.

 

They are not the best HS unit period, but they are the best overall imho.

Point for point Oblits win out everytime for me as well because if I weren't taking Oblits, then I'd be fielding one less Troops choice in my list just to get the points to cover my anti-tank needs elsewhere.

[Vissah]

Oblits are very versatile and that is there strength.

But you can also take a havoc squad of 5 with 4 missile launchers to use as your heavy support. Yes they are 5 points more expensive then 2 Oblits but they pump out more shots at long range and can also be used to throw down templates.

I use Oblits a lot but lately been switching to havocs cause my 2 times 2 Oblit squads are getting a lot of lascannon fire and other S8 AP2 or 1 stuff to eat that they mostly die in 1 turn. You can only make so much cover saves to keep them save :D

[minigun762]

Why would you been hitting him on a 6? The Defiler has a weapon skill so you hit them on atleast a 4.

 

A common thing to forget. Check out page 73 of the rulebook. Unless you're stunned (Defiler can't be) or immobilized, they need 6's to hit you. They only roll against your WS if you are stunned/immobilized. Goes for all walkers.

[Vissah]

Really...

 

Thanx Minigun I did not know that and the guys that use walkers at my club don't know that to cause they always let me hit him with the Weapon Skill.

[Hytanthas]

Why would you been hitting him on a 6? The Defiler has a weapon skill so you hit them on atleast a 4.

 

A common thing to forget. Check out page 73 of the rulebook. Unless you're stunned (Defiler can't be) or immobilized, they need 6's to hit you. They only roll against your WS if you are stunned/immobilized. Goes for all walkers.

 

Wow this makes my walkers a lot more dangerous in CC.

 

Now to the topic. I love my defilers. In fact I'm converting one this weekend (but who knows how long it may take. I saw a picture on the GW web page that showed a great conversion using a nemesis dread knight. Here is a picture:

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1920601a_Blog040811_9_XL.jpg

 

After seeing this i thought i would try my hand in making it.

 

But as for defiler tactics. If you have two at opposite table ends firing the battle cannon while moving 6 inches and having your rhinos rush forward it is a very hard target to focus anti armor on. especially if you have a rhino painted red for the berserkers you have inside.

[Mysticaria]

Why would you been hitting him on a 6? The Defiler has a weapon skill so you hit them on atleast a 4.

 

A common thing to forget. Check out page 73 of the rulebook. Unless you're stunned (Defiler can't be) or immobilized, they need 6's to hit you. They only roll against your WS if you are stunned/immobilized. Goes for all walkers.

 

Wow this makes my walkers a lot more dangerous in CC.

 

It's important to point out this only applies to grenades. Powerfists, thunder hammers, chainfists, etc... will all hit using WS chart.

 

-Myst