OXing GK

[Valkyrion]

I want to build a small OX/DW force and because of the Inquisitor I'm 'forced' to use codex GK.

 

I'm going to stay away from Nemesis Dreadknights and special characters, but how do I go about building the army that looks deathwatch rather than black grey knights?

 

e.g, I'll avoid psycannons and use incinerators - if SGV can have heavy flamers then so should deathwatch, right?

But how do I pass off the psychic powers? Preferred Enemy? The Aegis?

 

Should I model them as normal black marines and just say I'm using C:GK, or model them using GK bits to avoid confusion?

 

I think;

I'm going to use an Inquisitor and either a Librarian or Brother Captain as my deathwatch HQ.

I'll use an Assassin, Dreadnought and Inquisition warband as elites, so there's no overtly GK models there.

The troops are an issue though - they are definitely grey knights, with Storm bolters and nemesis weapons which the Deathwatch don't use.

I'd be able to get away with any of the heavy support choices and a storm raven (a purgation squad with 'four heavy flamers' and a sergeant with a 'power weapon'.

 

It's how to de-knight the grey knights enough to pass them off as deathwatch.

 

 

edit to say I have searched, but most of the DW related stuff on this forum is using C:SM as a basis.

What if I was to do away with a second HQ choice and model a GKT as a librarian and a SS justicar as a librarian, to pass off their psychicness? Just have two troops choices, led by a 'librarian' each?

I don't want a winning list, although winning a game here or there would be nice, but a fluffy list.

[NuclearMessiah]

About the only way I know in our codex to represent standard Space Marines is to take the Inq Henchman Warrior Acolyte and give him a bolter and power armour. Other then that all PA Grey Knights come with Force Weapons and Storm Bolters and the DW use modified Godwyn pattern bolters.

 

I dont think you can accuratly represent the DW off the GK codex based mainly on the non standard armoury the GK use versus the run of the mill equipment the DW use which is more in line with the SM codices.

[Valkyrion]

Terminators come with storm bolters as standard in every chapter though, so I was thinking something like this for a Deathwatch terminator squad;

 

Justicar with Force Sword and Storm Bolter (librarian)

3 GKT with Daemon (thunder...) Hammers and Storm Bolters

1 GKT with Daemon Hammer and Incinerator (heavy flamer)

 

Two of those for the 2 troops choices

 

With an Inquisitor, Henchman, Assassin, Dreadnought, Storm Raven, Land Raider.

[NuclearMessiah]

Terminators come with storm bolters as standard in every chapter though, so I was thinking something like this for a Deathwatch terminator squad;

 

Justicar with Force Sword and Storm Bolter (librarian)

3 GKT with Daemon (thunder...) Hammers and Storm Bolters

1 GKT with Daemon Hammer and Incinerator (heavy flamer)

 

Two of those for the 2 troops choices

 

With an Inquisitor, Henchman, Assassin, Dreadnought, Storm Raven, Land Raider.

 

 

True you could, but other than the Inq and his henchman, assassins, and the storm raven this can all be done with the SM codex with wider war gear options for staying fluffy. You are losing access to more stuff by using the GK codex to play a fluffy DW army then if you used the SM codex. But in the end its your models, just the be sure to let your opponent know as always and post pictures later :P GL

[thade]

You could go a step further and model Grey Knight Strike Squads as Veteran marines, always forgoing usage of their powers and force weapons (they'd still all have power weapons and storm bolters, which are fine for marines with sufficient tenure). The only short-coming here really is that they'd be susceptible to psyk-out grenades and other anti-psyker weaponry. That alone would make things awkward.

 

You can just as easily have an Inquisitor counts-as a Space Marine captain (the stat line can just be explained with bionics, bio-upgrades, and specialized power armor) and use any of the marine codex variants. When going for counts-as, it's much easier on you to pick a book that best reflects the bulk of your troops and figure out how to crowbar in a single character than the reverse.

[number6]

Most people familiar with the old 4th edition Chapter Approved rules for Deathwatch Kill Teams find that Sternguard Veterans from the vanilla Space Marines codex is a very very close match to how the Deathwatch have been presented. Most people who follow this route also take Pedro Kantor as a "counts as" Deathwatch captain so that their Sternguard units are scoring.

 

That said, there is still very little known about the Deathwatch. The fluff is thin, and the rules even thinner. There is certainly nothing inherently wrong with wanting to use the GK codex instead. The only "issue" I see is that the GK's special rules are so unique that some people -- perhaps even yourself -- might find it difficult to believe your "counts as" DW are anything other than GKs.

[Theis]

I'd been thinking along similar lines, GK codex for a Death Watch army, simply because I want an inquisition dominated force. One way to accomplish that is, of course, using Coteaz, and not using Astartes anywhere, but he's non Xenos and uses quite a number of pieces of obviously non Ordo Xenos war gear (Deamonhammer for instance), and I generally dislike named characters.

 

So, next step in the thought process was explaining the token astartes presence as Deathweatch, obviously from thread topic, where my thought process seems to have diverged is in the explanation of the psychic powers of the astartes present. They're "count as" grey knights after all. So, why not say each squad leader or sergeant for the astartes is actually a librarian inducted into the Deathwatch, and through close association and long service with his squad mates, he has learned to enhance their abilities, and they have learned to work closely with him?

 

You could actually use librarian figures for squad leaders. You could explain the 1 wound and other non "librarian" stats, as they're junior librarians, or veterans just come into their psychic powers seconded to the Deathwatch fro seasoning, or what have you. They''re good enough for Deathwatch, but still new to being psykers sort of thing.

 

Then round out the rest of the force with 2 inquisitors from Ordo Xenos, two warbands as troops from them, and whatever other inquisitorial units you find appropriate.

 

So,

 

HQ

Xenos Inq

Xenois Inq

 

Troops

Astartes

Astartes

Warband

Warband

 

and the rest for flavor and personal preference?

[thade]

You know what I really wish they would do now? Now that they've taken away the old DH and WH codecies and removed any method by which people can comfortably make Inquisition forces that are neither GKs or SoBs, they should give us a Rogue Trader codex that allows such forces to endure. Storm Troopers, Space Marines (as elites perhaps), and other random Inquisition elements necessary. Until then, creativity with counts-as will have to do. <3

[DarKHaZZ13]

I'm still not a fan of uing the GK codex for DW...it doesn't amtter how you dress it up, it doesn't really fit.

 

As for using an Inquisitor, well, The old DW rules never really had the option...they were a suplement to a standing army; ie, you only had a squad (they counted as a troop choice and a HQ).

From what little rules guidelines we've had in the past, and what little fluff there is out there, the best fit is the vannila dex.

There you have the opotion of taking Sternguard; Alternate ammo, multiple special weapons,

making them scoring with Pedro

or taking a librarian.

[Whitefireinferno]

Thade we do not need any more Imperium armies.

[thade]

Thade we do not need any more Imperium armies.

It's not an additional Imperium army, though. Pure Inquisition forces have been around since 3rd Ed or before: people used to field all DH or WH forces completely devoid of GK and Sisters. Inquisitors have the resources for full armies and don't always have access to those two groups. It'd be nice, even as only a (dare I say it) White Dwarf Dex.

[DarKHaZZ13]

Thade we do not need any more Imperium armies.

It's not an additional Imperium army, though. Pure Inquisition forces have been around since 3rd Ed or before: people used to field all DH or WH forces completely devoid of GK and Sisters. Inquisitors have the resources for full armies and don't always have access to those two groups. It'd be nice, even as only a (dare I say it) White Dwarf Dex.

 

Too true. I rememebr back in 3rd Ed., any Imperial army could take an Inquisitor or assasin (their entery was in the BRB, along with the rules for sisters).

[thade]

I'm not saying they should bring the allied rules back; removing them was the right idea (so each codex can be internally balanced against each other). I am saying they should bring back the possibility of these armies with their own "internally balanced against the others" codex. Just my feeling though.

[Valkyrion]

Just to be a bit clearer - I don't want a Deathwatch Army, I want an Ordo Xenos army.

I already play crimson fists so don't really want another Kantor/SGV army.

C:SM doesn't let me take an Inquisitor, non power armour or assassins.

 

I know Grey Knights don't really work for Deathwatch, but Codex: Grey Knights is the only codex that works for Inquisition. I'm thinking like an OX crack team that only has 10 Deathwatch members, but they are terminators with non standard issue wargear lead into battle by Librarians whilst an Inquisitor Lord and his retinue jump out of a Storm Raven with a Dreadnought being piggy backed. Like 30 minis in 1500 points or something that is not at all a viable army list, but you see that Hierophant Bio Titan over there? My guys are going to kill it.

 

That sort of thing...

[thade]

I really don't see a way to crowbar Space Marines into the GK force for OX, unfortunately. You could go sans Space Marines (there are Ordos Xenos forces without them) but the Deathwatch element seems important to you. Something will have to give. You'll either have to accept that your elite DW marines will for some reason be susceptible to anti-pskyer weaponry, go with no Death Watch marines, or give up Assassins, power-armor-less Inquisitors, etc., and go with a marine codex. :( Just my two cents though.

 

Personally, I wish they'd give an Ordos Xenos (or Rogue Trader) codex for just this reason.

[DinoDoc]

Like 30 minis in 1500 points or something that is not at all a viable army list, but you see that Hierophant Bio Titan over there?

Here you go. 1500 on the nose and a reasonably fluffy OX force.

 

Unlimited Pts - Grey Knights Roster

 

HQ: Inquisitor Coteaz (1#, 100 pts)

1 Inquisitor Coteaz, 100 pts

 

HQ: Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (1#, 80 pts)

1 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, 80 pts (Force Sword; Rad Grenades; Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon; Upgrade to Psyker; Hammerhand)

 

Troops: Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (11#, 180 pts)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 180 pts ((C:GK, pg. 48-51); Unit Type: Infantry)

1 Banisher (Eviscerator)

6 Crusader

4 Death Cult Assassin

 

Troops: Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (11#, 180 pts)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 180 pts ((C:GK, pg. 48-51); Unit Type: Infantry)

1 Banisher (Eviscerator)

6 Crusader

4 Death Cult Assassin

 

Troops: Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (4#, 92 pts)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 92 pts ((C:GK, pg. 48-51); Unit Type: Infantry)

3 Warrior Acolyte (Meltagun x3)

1 Razorback (Psybolt Ammunition)

 

Troops: Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (4#, 92 pts)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 92 pts ((C:GK, pg. 48-51); Unit Type: Infantry)

3 Warrior Acolyte (Plasma gun x3)

1 Razorback (Psybolt Ammunition)

 

Troops: Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (9#, 128 pts)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 128 pts ((C:GK, pg. 48-51); Unit Type: Infantry)

6 Psyker

2 Warrior Acolyte (Meltagun x2)

1 Rhino

 

Troops: Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (9#, 128 pts)

1 Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, 128 pts ((C:GK, pg. 48-51); Unit Type: Infantry)

6 Psyker

2 Warrior Acolyte (Meltagun x2)

1 Rhino

 

Heavy Support: Land Raider Crusader (1#, 265 pts)

1 Land Raider Crusader, 265 pts (Multi-melta)

 

Heavy Support: Land Raider Redeemer (1#, 255 pts)

1 Land Raider Redeemer, 255 pts (Multi-melta)

 

Total Roster Cost: 1500

[jeffersonian000]

If you have to go with the GK codex to do DW, a squad or two of Strikers works quite well as Psycannon could be suspensor mounted assault cannons firing specialty ammo, and Nemesis Weapon can be Power Weapons with an "overload" mode with a secondary "disruptor field" mode (Warp Quake). Interceptors could a DW Marines with actual Jump Packs. Henchmen Warbands and Assassins are still Inquistorial units, so no "counts-as" form them.

 

Its pretty easy to do, even if the SM codex is a better fit.

 

SJ

[Valerian]

Possible solution, especially if you just play with buddies or other open-minded people:

 

Call it an Apocolypse game, even if it's small points value (between 1500 and 2000), with no superheavies, flyers, or other game-breaking units for that points level. Then take your Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, henchmen, and assassin, then add a few Sternguard squads to be the DeathWatch. Model and paint it all to the appropriate standard; when you show people your cool-as-hell army, they'll be begging to play a game with you.

 

Valerian

[Valkyrion]

Maybe make three illegal 1000 point lists using;

GK - OX Inquisitor, assassin, warband

BA (wha...?!) - SGV, Captain/Librarian, storm ravens.

IG - Storm Troopers

 

Everything in a flying thing. Valkyries and Storm Ravens abound.

This isn't a 'I wanna use storm ravens but I can't waaaah', I like the idea of a proper 'flying' army. It could be further expanded to Thunderhawks, Lightnings, Marauders, Elysians after that imminent lottery win...

[ChaosPhoenix]

If you want some semi-official fluff, have a look at Fantasyflight Games Deathwatch RPG. Maybe you can get the book from your friends. There's a lot of informationen in there, but I don't know how useful it'll be.

[lordsloth]

Its all just a matter of refluffing the units and using different models (sufficiently customised to make it obvious whats going on).

So for example.

 

Inquisitor entry speaks for itself, just get an inquisitor. In the case you think Coteaz is needed for hench spam, just make an inquisitor model with similar visible wargear and refluff him as being ordos xenos.

 

Deathwatch space marines are supposed to have improved gear (stormbolters) and specialist ammo (refluffed psyrounds) so most grey knight units can be used. The only thing thats vaguely annoying is the psychic powers but alot of those can be fluffed away as something else. Hammerhand can be experimental strength boosting drugs (sometimes they work, sometimes they dont, very occasionally they backfire and hurt the user), warp quake can be experimental jamming tools (sometimes they work etc etc), force weapons can be experimental poisons (sometimes they work, ...). Just try to stay away from the really weird stuff except on 'deathwatch' gk librarians. Its really all just a matter of how far you are comfortable going in explaining the rules in a different way for the same end result effect.

 

There was a golden demon entry some years ago now that featured a xenos henchmen squad that included a 'pet' genestealer as a counts as something-or-other. If you are willing to play something of a radical inquisitor force, you can have some fun with using this concept and even expanding on it (dreadknight = pet tyranid MC of choice with some random imperial technology bits/guns applied to the carapace? Could be fun).

 

Some stuff is going to be harder. I dont know the deathwatch fluff too brilliantly well but I cant really imagine that astartes chapters would second their hallowed dreadnoughts to the deathwatch, so getting dreads in the mix would probably be hard to explain. But still, most of the codex can be explained in some way or another (be it similarly to what i have outlined above as examples or in your own completely different way). Yes some people you play will be gits aobout it. Yes, you'll catch some flack for it here and there. But i wouldnt be too surprised if you get a bunch of compliments on your heavily customized models and stuff as well.

 

The most important thing is:

- that you yourself can live with the fluff explanations. After all its your army and youre supposed to have fun with it.

- that it is clear what unit is what and they are WYSIWYG (f.e. make sure your pet carnifex is visibly very different from your opponents who plays nids, by adding bits and stuff. same for your astartes models, hench model conversions and whatever else).

[phosis21]

Stuff

This. All of this. Lord Sloth has it exactly right.

 

Edit: Also do yourself a favor and buy (or *cough* borrow >.>) a copy of Rites of Battle and/or the Deathwatch RPG rulebook. It goes into a lot of detail into who the Deathwatch are, and how they work and organize themselves.

 

Also, for what its worth, OP, I'm doing exactly this. Using a C:GK to run Deathwatch.

 

I'm doing a bunch of converted regular marines, using Godwyn Bolters (with Drum Mags or cool sights or whatever) with DW shoulderpads (which is really any shoulder pad I can find with a Rim on it). Psycannons are improved Heavy Bolters, every model has some kind of power-sword or what have you strapped to its belt.

 

I've got absolutely no problem re-fluffing Coteaz to be an OX Inquisitor with a new name (or Stern or Draigo or whatever).

 

Rites of Battle says that DW use Storm Ravens, so you're covered there.

 

As for Dreadknights, I'm thinking Wraith-lord with like some kind of psychic lock on it (model a psyker on the base who's controlling it too, kind of like a Big Daddy and those little girls from Bioshock)

[Valkyrion]

Thanks everyone, great help.

 

A couple of fluff questions if you'll indulge...

 

Does the Deathwatch RPG book go into detail about chapter secrets/customs? For example, does a Dark Angel Deathwatch take his Kill Team off to hunt the fallen, or would a Blood Angel Deathwatch succumb to the Black Rage?

Do Black Templars work with DW Librarians?

 

Are the Deathwatch 'neutral' with regards the Inquisition? Would they be bothered about working alongside a radical with a pet genestealer or is it any tool to get the job done?

 

Finally, if a Deathwatch marine is mortally wounded and is worthy of dreadnoughting, is he returned to his chapter to become a dread, or will the DW inter him?

 

Cheers. I don't want to buy a 400 page book where 300 of the pages are useless to me, but I will if the fluff is good, and (more to the point) 'official'.

[NuclearMessiah]

The DA won’t tell anyone about the fallen. Remember the DA are trying to keep the INQ from finding out about the fallen, so telling your DW battle brothers about it (especially the BT) about it would be counterproductive.

 

The Black Rage is possible and the DW apothecaries do know about it but are sworn to secrecy, so I would imagine he would just be pulled from service for “unknown reasons” if it manifested.

 

As for the BT, they don’t like it but they don’t have much of a choice and just deal with it.

[skarn]

Personally I would use C:SM for Ordo Xenos.

 

Pedro = Deathwatch Captain.

Libby = Deathwatch Librarian.

 

Add in 2-3 squads of Sternguard, which as 6 mentions, are as close to the DW as you are going to get for the foreseeable future.

 

Then I'd have a bunch of scout squads, using alternative heads (like Pig Irons) to represent Xenos household troops/storm troopers etc.

 

Lastly, I'd use Telion as my inquisitor. He has a unique bolter and a bunch of special rules that wouldn't be too out of place on an inquisitor. I actually used Telion's mini as the basis of my own inquisitor;

 

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/7219/wah1.jpg

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7370/wah2.jpg