Heretic!

[Clone]

Well now, I decided to dust off my old metal Grey Knight Terminators and PAGK's and give them a fling with the new codex. However, I have read the new codex and something feels wrong about it. I no longer see the personification of the Emperor's diving might and grace cleansing the galaxy with psychic fire and blessed force weapons.

 

I now see... Chaos.

 

Instead of psychic powers, psybolts and force weapons, I see sorcerous powers and daemon weapons. Instead of Paladins and Dreadknights I see Possessed Marines.

 

To this end, I have thought about building an elite Chaos Warband consisting of Chosen Terminators being Possessed by powerful daemons, all using the Grey Knight codex.

 

Does this sound like I am stretching the fluff too far or am I insanely clever?

 

p.s. This is not Chaos Grey Knight. I am aware that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.

[DarkCrusader]

Hmmm...First off I agree with you on the note of the GK codex.

Second,I thought about this for a bit and came to the conclusion that even though it might be rarer for daemons to target stronger beings(terminators) its not unheard of...This could become quite a good DIY to do,very unique,hope you keep it up 'til the end because some people *coughDarkCrusadercough* don't usually finish what they start. :P

Hope to see more!

-Darkcru

[Ace Debonair]

To this end, I have thought about building an elite Chaos Warband consisting of Chosen Terminators being Possessed by powerful daemons, all using the Grey Knight codex.

 

Does this sound like I am stretching the fluff too far or am I insanely clever?

Nope, and nope. :P

But if you like the idea, then by all means do it! It sounds like a lot of conversion-potential and fun, that's for sure.

 

However, the easiest route is thus: don't write anything about the chapter warband that is solely for justifying which codex you use.

No matter what you write, it'll read pretty much like a blatant justification.

 

It's not neccesarily a bad thing, but in most cases such justifications are simply not very interesting.

Warbands and Chapters (in writing) should really be more about the character and personality of the members, and less about which part of the warband is the counts-as Paladins. :P

[Clone]

Thank you for the replies and advice, guys.

 

I got my first box of Chaos Terminators today and have some Possessed Marine bits on the way.

 

I'm not too hot with green stuff but I'm willing to give it a go.

[StGene]

Subverting Matt Ward's colossal cock-up in the best way possible? Yes please!

[SnakeoilSage]

Well now, I decided to dust off my old metal Grey Knight Terminators and PAGK's and give them a fling with the new codex. However, I have read the new codex and something feels wrong about it. I no longer see the personification of the Emperor's diving might and grace cleansing the galaxy with psychic fire and blessed force weapons.

 

I now see... Chaos.

 

Instead of psychic powers, psybolts and force weapons, I see sorcerous powers and daemon weapons. Instead of Paladins and Dreadknights I see Possessed Marines.

 

Well that's the secret, isn't it? Psychic energies and sorcery are the same thing in a universe where belief equals power and psychic energies come from a reality where anything your mind can fathom is made real if you believe it strongly enough. Faith, Sorcery, Psychics are all created from the same source, the Immaterium, and the Grey Knights know this.

 

That just makes the fate of men like Magnus the Red so tragic.

[NightrawenII]

Well that's the secret, isn't it? Psychic energies and sorcery are the same thing in a universe where belief equals power and psychic energies come from a reality where anything your mind can fathom is made real if you believe it strongly enough. Faith, Sorcery, Psychics are all created from the same source, the Immaterium, and the Grey Knights know this.

And this is what happen, when you let a ignorant people write the fluff.

 

Sorcery is not the same like Psychic powers. Period.

[Clone]

Well, here's a little model I just built using Chaos Terminator bits and Possessed bits.

 

Not much yet but once its painted and I've added more daemon bits to him/it the model will look a bit more daemonic.

 

http://fieldsofelysium.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/DSCN3309-300x225.jpg

[Wings of Fury]

Well that's the secret, isn't it? Psychic energies and sorcery are the same thing in a universe where belief equals power and psychic energies come from a reality where anything your mind can fathom is made real if you believe it strongly enough. Faith, Sorcery, Psychics are all created from the same source, the Immaterium, and the Grey Knights know this.

And this is what happen, when you let a ignorant people write the fluff.

 

Sorcery is not the same like Psychic powers. Period.

 

Isn't sorcery defined in 40k as pyshic powers bestowed by an outside force (chaos gods or the big E)

[SnakeoilSage]

Well that's the secret, isn't it? Psychic energies and sorcery are the same thing in a universe where belief equals power and psychic energies come from a reality where anything your mind can fathom is made real if you believe it strongly enough. Faith, Sorcery, Psychics are all created from the same source, the Immaterium, and the Grey Knights know this.

And this is what happen, when you let a ignorant people write the fluff.

 

Sorcery is not the same like Psychic powers. Period.

 

Actually, they are the same, and I'm prepared to refute any arguments that say otherwise.

[Malthe]

Sorcery and psychic powers are alike in effect, not in cause.

 

Psychics are cabable of forcing their will on the universe by manipulating the Warp.

Their 'will/mind/thoughts' are the cause of the effect they bring about.

Figurativly they add their own 'codescript' to the universe, every time the use their powers.

 

Sorcery is more like classic computer games cheat-codes (remember Age of Empires?).

You do something 'secretly' predefined which by design produces the desired effect.

In practice sorcery works by forcing someone who has the (psychic) power to manipulate the Warp, to do so acording to the sorcerers wishes.

Note 'forcing' as opposed to 'asking'! Otherwise asking your local Librarian to mindfry some orks, would make you a sorcerer.

 

The real question regarding sorcery is; who did the original coding?

Who desided that daemons can be dominated when faced with their true name?

Who desided that smearing SoB blood on your armour would help you beating up bloodletters?

 

It's anybody's guess... but I'd suggest Chaos or unexplainable universal laws :o

 

Anyhow; psychics have power, sorcerers wield power.

There is a major difference.

 

Cheers!

 

p.s. That being said, some sorcerous rituals might require the practitioner to have psychic powers as well. None of the approaches are mutually exclusive.

[SnakeoilSage]

It all boils down to the mortal influence on the Warp. Everything--everything--within it is the creation of mortal minds coalesced into a form we can comprehend. Daemons, spells, true names, the purity of blood: all of these are made real by the Warp, reacting to minds that believe in it.

 

Countless weak mortal minds made Khorne real.

 

A few powerful minds can make small things like true names have power.

 

A Librarian's life is full of rituals and traditions. A Sorcerer's life is full of rituals and traditions. Both rely on the knowledge given to them by those before to achieve their powers. Both rely on training and exceptional willpower to control their power. They are both, for lack of a better term, "spellcasters," drawing on the knowledge of their mentors (be they mortal or god) to shape the Warp.

 

Nothing tangible separates "psychic" from "sorcerer." Both are just human words trying to define the undefinable. It's better to say that an Imperial psyker is different from a Chaos psyker, because one trains himself to resist the Warp's effects, and the other embraces it.

[Arkangilos]

Well that's the secret, isn't it? Psychic energies and sorcery are the same thing in a universe where belief equals power and psychic energies come from a reality where anything your mind can fathom is made real if you believe it strongly enough. Faith, Sorcery, Psychics are all created from the same source, the Immaterium, and the Grey Knights know this.

And this is what happen, when you let a ignorant people write the fluff.

 

Sorcery is not the same like Psychic powers. Period.

 

Actually, they are the same, and I'm prepared to refute any arguments that say otherwise.

 

QFT

 

I too shall defend this.

 

And I am tired of this stuff.

[NightrawenII]

It all boils down to the mortal influence on the Warp. Everything--everything--within it is the creation of mortal minds coalesced into a form we can comprehend. Daemons, spells, true names, the purity of blood: all of these are made real by the Warp, reacting to minds that believe in it.

 

Countless weak mortal minds made Khorne real.

 

A few powerful minds can make small things like true names have power.

 

A Librarian's life is full of rituals and traditions. A Sorcerer's life is full of rituals and traditions. Both rely on the knowledge given to them by those before to achieve their powers. Both rely on training and exceptional willpower to control their power. They are both, for lack of a better term, "spellcasters," drawing on the knowledge of their mentors (be they mortal or god) to shape the Warp.

 

Nothing tangible separates "psychic" from "sorcerer." Both are just human words trying to define the undefinable. It's better to say that an Imperial psyker is different from a Chaos psyker, because one trains himself to resist the Warp's effects, and the other embraces it.

No, no and thousand times NO.

"Sorcery" is term used for specific discipline of manipulation with Warp. Read the Dark Heresy sourcebooks to understand this.

 

*Psychic Power* is when I take an iron bar and hit SnakeoilSage over head. I can do that because I have hands and naturally the skillful and stronger hands make better result. :)

*Sorcery* is when I don't have hands, but I can tell Telanicus to take the aforementioned iron bar and hit SnakeoilSage over head. Of course, Telanicus is not going to do this for free and he is going to ask for compensation. Therefore the smarter trader I'm and more money I have, the better bargain.

 

Same result, different conduct. Learn the nuances, guys.

 

 

~NightrawenII.

[TrashMan]

Subverting Matt Ward's colossal cock-up in the best way possible? Yes please!

 

 

HERESY-

 

The GK are one of the best things to happen to 40K.

[SnakeoilSage]

No, no and thousand times NO.

"Sorcery" is term used for specific discipline of manipulation with Warp. Read the Dark Heresy sourcebooks to understand this.

 

*Psychic Power* is when I take an iron bar and hit SnakeoilSage over head. I can do that because I have hands and naturally the skillful and stronger hands make better result. ;)

*Sorcery* is when I don't have hands, but I can tell Telanicus to take the aforementioned iron bar and hit SnakeoilSage over head. Of course, Telanicus is not going to do this for free and he is going to ask for compensation. Therefore the smarter trader I'm and more money I have, the better bargain.

 

Same result, different conduct. Learn the nuances, guys.

 

 

~NightrawenII.

 

If Nightrawen wants to draw his canon from a game written by three people who don't work for GW, and published by Fantasy Flight games after Black Industries shut its doors the very same year, then all power to him. Hell, we might as well as refer to the Tyranids as Zerg for all the authenticity we're wielding.

 

But if you wanna get into semantics:

Psychic power is bending reality with the power of your will alone.

 

Sorcery is a psychic drawing additional power from external sources to bolster his existing power. The Warp, souls, daemon patrons, whatever.

 

Read A Thousand Sons. Magnus the Red's astral projection ceremony doesn't call up a daemon, it powers his own psychic abilities to project himself to the Emperor. He doesn't bargain with anything.

 

Have you ever, ever read in any official material, mention of a sorcerer who isn't a psyker?

[Northstar]

Have you ever, ever read in any official material, mention of a sorcerer who isn't a psyker?

 

 

 

Erm, I can think of one....

 

Tzeentch

 

 

 

 

:devil:

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

NightRawen has the right of way with this one. It just makes more sense to differentiate between people who buy psychic power and, well, psykers. Psykers can buy pacts and what not, but that's combining the two and it's probably the only time that the two terms should be interchangable.

[Northstar]

I look at it with this rule of thumb:

 

All sorcerers are psykers, not all psykers are sorcerers.

 

Simply, you have to manifest a warp presence in order to partake in the rites to become a sorcerer, that does not happen without being a psyker in the first place. There is no "buying or power" as you say, you first have to HAVE some degree of power, in order to borrow power from a daemon, else you are simply possessed by the daemon and become it's puppet, without any soul of will of your own. That is not widely the case with sorerers, though I am sure a few have grasped for too much power, and lost themselves to the will of daemons.

[Aqui]

Nice hijacking guys :lol:

 

On topic, I don't have a problem with this. Would be interesting to see :lol: