Dark Eldar

[OoZo]

I have comed a cross Dark eldar a couple of times lately and i really really disslike them.

Sometimes I truely feel that some lists are better at all-comers lists then BA.

So lets see my meta: We have a tyranids player who loves his mass trygons and tervagons(atleast 3), these cuties get companied by those bugs who shoot str 8 shoots, atleast 4-6 of them. And then the horde of stealers and hermagaunts. The amount of units and the killyness of these are just sick.

 

Next player has his pesky Dark eldar army with 6+ venoms, a couple of raiders, helions etc... The amounts of lance shots is just ridiculous and then a bucket load of str 3-4 shots flashes over my army! And their extreme fastness is crazy!

 

Next guy has a very solid IG army with 2+ vendettas, some hydras, 1 manticore, commandsquad and chimeras filled with veterans.

 

So we have 3 very different lists, but they are all specialized in one type of battle.

I really do feel that in some degrees that BA takes the shortest straw, ofc I can build a DOA lists vs the guard player and with some decent dice i will table him, but the same list would be totally chewed up vs the tyranid player, who at the same time would struggle a lot vs blood talons dreads and some ML.

 

But the Dark eldar really pisses me off! I dont really see how i can field and army that will have a chance vs all his twinlinked lance weapons and the mobility.

Maybe I have missed something but i really feel that BA have some major problems with them, and only way i can see is mechinized with 5+ razorbacks, preds and attack bikes

 

CHeers

[BOBMAKENZIE]

what do you use now?

[Astorath the Grim]

Well I'm a DE player as well...and the only TL lance weapon in the dex is on the talos and its a heat lance...

[AngelOfDeathXIII]

I haven't played against Dark Eldar myself so correct me if I'm saying anything stupid...

 

Wouldn't the Death Company make a perfect screen force to draw away fire from other units? Also how about a Whirlwind? As far as I know those DE are quite low on the Toughness.. Let them eat templates!

[Atlantic]

9 multi melta attack bikes in reserve is pretty brutal for all three of those lists.

 

It would depend on what else you are fielding though.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Maybe I have missed something but i really feel that BA have some major problems with them, and only way i can see is mechinized with 5+ razorbacks, preds and attack bikes

 

Not the only way to deal with the problem, but it probably is the most straightforward.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah the mech way is prolly the best approach to dealing with dark eldar skimmer spam. Make sure to take a Libby with Shield.

 

G :ph34r:

[Fortunate Son]

Although I realize list-building is a big part of the game, it could also be your tactics.

Against DE, deployment becomes an important part of the game.

And how you use your reserves (if you are using them)

 

Realize their skimmers will fall to even light anti-mech weaponry.

TLAC or Asst Cannons will do them damage.

Even your scouts' sniper rifles can slow them down.

 

Just some thoughts...

[OoZo]

I have tried attack bikes and they are great, but what i tried to say is that i feel like BA has problems making a solid all comers list. We have maybe the most flexible codex, but at the same time we are not really great at anything. I know that great players can win with any list, but still.

 

A good DE dont have any units on foot, they are all transported, so a str 5 have chance to pen it, but autocannons is better.

 

Yea razorbacks is a good option, but i really like my assaulties with backpacks, and razorspam is not very great vs horde armies like the tyranid player.

 

:D

[BOBMAKENZIE]

what sort of list do you use now? How many points? Throw us a sampling :D

 

 

BA can do an all comers list just fine. It just needs to be built slightly differently from other Marine armies (hey it ought to be that way!)

 

Take a peak at Cheap Dev squads. They might be a good option and if you can kill the Tervigons the gaunts all about them start popping.

[ulllyssies0110]

You can also try Storm Raven gunships. There just as fast as any thing in a DE army, Great for Hoard armies, and will do fairly well against mech armies. That being said there are some tactics to using them. Lance weapons and melta weapons don't get there special rules. PoMS lets you fire more than one main weapon and at more than one tagets. They can carry 12 marines or 6 jump marines/ termies and a Dreadnought. You Can back the up w/ Landspeeder Typhoons witch Has anti light vehicle and anti infantry. Also remember guard tanks are rear armor 10.

[I am Legion]

I have alot of experience dealing with DE. They are an amazing army right now.

 

VS all of those armies I have used a mechanized army that has worked really well. Terminators also come to mind, take 6 and multicharge units. The Stormravaen has POTMS, this allows you to fire at 2 units at once. Whirlwinds will work VS all of those armies. Baal Preds are scary to anyone, and like BOB said, cheap DEVs.

 

I'll keep this short, but we do have very good all-rounder lists.

[AbusePuppy]

Everyone seems to think that their army is the weakest and everyone else is unfair and too good. :\

 

Poison shots shouldn't bother BA at all, since you have good armor and FNP.

 

twin-linked Lance weapons

 

There are zero units in the Dark Eldar codex that have a twin-linked Dark Lance or Blaster. The Heat Lance was mentioned, but if your opponent is using Talos/Chronos, you should be happy because those units aren't very good.

 

DE units are fast, but absurdly fragile. Unless you're playing jumpers, you should have plenty of long-range firepower available. Stay to cover, play defensively, and your every shot should cause significant damage. As Marines, you are a tough generalist; use this to your advantage. Tanks blocking objectives can stop last-turn contest rushes; also remember that without the Shock Prow upgrade, none of his Raiders can use Tank Shock and Venoms can never Tank Shock, no matter what.

[Smendrik]

just out of interest: how would you engage a DE army with jumpers?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

DoA can smash de. You have to play aggressively and coordinate assaults.

 

G :D

[Black Memories]

Probably the out-right dumbest thing about DE is those stupid shields. The trick is demeching them fast enough then cleaning up in assault afterwards. Despite what some players may insist on, DE are not that good in assault. ASM are superior to wyches by a lot in close combat most of the time, especially with FnP. De-meching the troops is the major issue. What bothers me the most about DE lists (and caused me to lose badly in the 'ard boyz semis) is that they always get a cover save. When your opponent gets the hot hand with cover saves there's almost nothing you can do against DE mech spam, it's out of your control. I think really that makes them so strong right now.

 

The two armies I tabled in the semis after the dark eldar had 9 and 14 armored vehicles, all were destroyed. Against a hot handed mech DE player I only managed to take out 4 vehicles. Absolutely insane army if they get going with their cover saves. Beating mech DE is as simple as bringing long range anti-tank and hoping they don't get lucky. If you get through the sames the vehicles are paper thin and easily destroyed. I'd say focus entirely on the vehicles until they're sufficiently crippled speed-wise then close in on objectives, etc.

[Eorek]

Well, the real strong point of DE is the fact that they have the mobility and range... Usually when I play my eldar I get to strike first no matter if I start or not. (and the godly firepower we have usually is enough to bring any army to it's knees)

 

A fast veichle with defensive weapons/the ravager special rule for firing all weapons = 36+12= 48 inches effective range vs. a normal stationary veichle(wants to fire all weapons)or a heavy weapons squad with the standard 48 in range (Las/autocannon and missile launcher)- 6 from nightshields = 42

(My point here is that a good dark eldar player will almost always get first strike, if not only fight a portion of your army.)

BA has the bonus of also being fast, but here the lose out on the quantity compared to a dark eldar army...Atleast according to my experience

The toughest BA army I've come across is the ones that makes my superior movability + range count for nothing is alot of DOA units, drop pods, flanking baals and so on. Also a huge amount of 3+ armour with feel no pain would be hard for a dark eldar player to manage. ( yes I do have 22 splinter cannons in my army... but each will kill about 0.7 marines per round* if they are backed up by feel no pain... and Doa is a great way of bringing melta weapons up close (and kill those low armour veichles))

 

Though just watch out with a DOA list, Vect with his orbs, an haemonculus with a dark gate, a void raven bomber/razorwing fighter with missiles or even the rare shredder are a few very, very good ways of wiping a few squads of tightly packed jump marines out

 

 

* a splinter cannon generates 4 wounds against everything with a toughness value(except some apocalypse creatures), a 3+ armour save fails 1/3 which means about 1.3333 wounds still go through... with feel no pain 50% of those are also saved = 0.6666 or rounded up to 0.7 marines per splinter cannon per shooting phase.

[Astorath the Grim]

Despite what some players may insist on, DE are not that good in assault. ASM are superior to wyches by a lot in close combat most of the time, especially with FnP.

 

I will have to disagree with you there, even with furious charge and FNP, wyches are going first, and yes they need 5s to wound, but its not that hard to reduce an ASM squad enough in the first round of combat to make the ASMs return attacks less then stellar. And with the nearly mandatory Agonizer, I've seldomly killed less then 3-4 marines in one round of combat, and I've wiped a 10 man squad out in the first round on several occasions.

 

My point being do not believe everything you hear on 40k forums on how wyches are nothing but a tarpit, its completely untrue. Wyches can and will decimate just about anything they charge, first or second turn if they are set up correctly. Especially if you got a favorable drug roll. If possible shoot the living heck outta the wyches before you charge them, even BA ASM aren't necisarily going to be enough to take them out completely in assault. Do NOT underestimate them.

[OoZo]

The list I have tried lately is:

 

Libririan with JP, shield and fear

Priest Jp

 

3x10 Assault marines (2 melta each, 1 pf)

1x10 Assault marines(1 flamer, 1 melta)

 

3x5 devs (4 ml each)

1500p

 

This is the lists I am trying out now, it has worked pretty well actually.

I have tried a couple of different lists, but i think this one is pretty straightforward and gives a lot of mobility and offers so much bonus with objectives and missions, since we play very competative and with tournament missions. So we never really play the usual missions in the rulebook since they are so easy to abuse:P

 

But as some earlier said, raiders and venoms are just sick and i feel that numbers is your best friend and meltas and ML. I have tried dakka dreads with some success, but we do play with atleast 25% terrain(LOS blockers, not the american style dessert terrain, where terrain is just for the looks( ^_^ ), and i feel they are to immobile.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

at 1500 you dont really need 40 Assault marines. Consider dropping a marine squad and getting a priest and bulking out the Devs so they can keep firing longer. DE and put out alot of Fire power back at you and difusing some more of it with some extra bodies could help ^_^ Same goes for Vs. Guard.

 

P.S. I've mentioned this before a couple times but put me in the camp that says Wyches arent as good as some people seem to think (Of course they arent bad either :) )

[OoZo]

Yeah i know that many troops isnt necessary, but a lot of the tournaments have missions that involves 4+ objectives, amount of seperate troops within a quarter so the more the better. And we have komp lists that punishes certain units.

 

I am thinking about getting some attack bikes instead of the last squad, but im not sure :devil:

[AbusePuppy]

I will have to disagree with you there, even with furious charge and FNP, wyches are going first, and yes they need 5s to wound, but its not that hard to reduce an ASM squad enough in the first round of combat to make the ASMs return attacks less then stellar. And with the nearly mandatory Agonizer, I've seldomly killed less then 3-4 marines in one round of combat, and I've wiped a 10 man squad out in the first round on several occasions.

 

My point being do not believe everything you hear on 40k forums on how wyches are nothing but a tarpit, its completely untrue. Wyches can and will decimate just about anything they charge, first or second turn if they are set up correctly. Especially if you got a favorable drug roll. If possible shoot the living heck outta the wyches before you charge them, even BA ASM aren't necisarily going to be enough to take them out completely in assault. Do NOT underestimate them.

 

Let's see here: 15 Wyches vs 10 ASM. We'll assume the Wyches get the charge and have an Agonizer. (I'm going to ignore their special weapons here because they add a lot of complication, but none of them drastically swing a fight against ASM and we're already giving them a big advantage by letting them charge a unit with superior mobility.) I'll also assume +1WS for their drug, since it works out to about the same as most of the results.

 

Wyches get 42 attacks, 28 hits, 9 wounds, 3 failed saves, 1.5 failed FNP. The Hekatrix adds another 1 casualty with her Agonizer.

ASM swing back and have 12 attacks (we take casualties on the special troopers), 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 failed saves. The Sarge adds an additional .5 with his Power Fist.

 

So even being charged by a MUCH larger squad than you will usually see, the ASM still tie combat against the Wyches. If the roles are reversed and we let the jump infantry charge the foot unit, the ASM win combat solidly (approximately 5v2). Just as importantly, ATSKNF insures that the ASM will never be wiped out by a combat result- the Wyches do not have that assurance. With middling Leadership, even a single lost round of combat can mean getting chased off the board or killed by Sweeping Advance.

 

Wyches are a good unit, but even a low-end combat squad like Assault Marines can easily beat them up. They are specialists, not generalists, and simply throwing them against enemy squads and expecting to win is a poor plan.

[Astorath the Grim]

I will have to disagree with you there, even with furious charge and FNP, wyches are going first, and yes they need 5s to wound, but its not that hard to reduce an ASM squad enough in the first round of combat to make the ASMs return attacks less then stellar. And with the nearly mandatory Agonizer, I've seldomly killed less then 3-4 marines in one round of combat, and I've wiped a 10 man squad out in the first round on several occasions.

 

My point being do not believe everything you hear on 40k forums on how wyches are nothing but a tarpit, its completely untrue. Wyches can and will decimate just about anything they charge, first or second turn if they are set up correctly. Especially if you got a favorable drug roll. If possible shoot the living heck outta the wyches before you charge them, even BA ASM aren't necisarily going to be enough to take them out completely in assault. Do NOT underestimate them.

 

Let's see here: 15 Wyches vs 10 ASM. We'll assume the Wyches get the charge and have an Agonizer. (I'm going to ignore their special weapons here because they add a lot of complication, but none of them drastically swing a fight against ASM and we're already giving them a big advantage by letting them charge a unit with superior mobility.) I'll also assume +1WS for their drug, since it works out to about the same as most of the results.

 

Wyches get 42 attacks, 28 hits, 9 wounds, 3 failed saves, 1.5 failed FNP. The Hekatrix adds another 1 casualty with her Agonizer.

ASM swing back and have 12 attacks (we take casualties on the special troopers), 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 failed saves. The Sarge adds an additional .5 with his Power Fist.

 

So even being charged by a MUCH larger squad than you will usually see, the ASM still tie combat against the Wyches. If the roles are reversed and we let the jump infantry charge the foot unit, the ASM win combat solidly (approximately 5v2). Just as importantly, ATSKNF insures that the ASM will never be wiped out by a combat result- the Wyches do not have that assurance. With middling Leadership, even a single lost round of combat can mean getting chased off the board or killed by Sweeping Advance.

 

Wyches are a good unit, but even a low-end combat squad like Assault Marines can easily beat them up. They are specialists, not generalists, and simply throwing them against enemy squads and expecting to win is a poor plan.

 

Mathhammer aside, my experience playing a wyche heavy DE army is that they have killed everything I've sent them up against. BA ASM with furious charge and fnp, DC, daemon princes, greater daemons, zerkers, MCs, everything has died. I do not fear sending the wyches into combat against anything.

 

No ASM cannot easily take out a squad of wyches. I'm sorry but that is the comment of a person who has no experience against wyches. Unless, of course, your DE player cannot roll a 4+ on a die to save his life. Your basing your comments solely off of math hammer, which tells you what should happen...not what will.

 

My point is, do not underestimate wyches. You do that and they will ruin your day.

 

However, BA can have just as much mobility as a DE army, with jp ASM, and fast rhino transports, you can match a DE's speed almost completely. The only edge the DE really have is their shields, as previously mentioned, and the fact that they are fleet. A good jp list with some ranged fire power, should have a good chance of defeating them.

[Black Memories]

My comments were based 100% off experience. The entire time I've heard how great wyches were, how they dominated everything in close combat. Our worst close combat unit is better than wyches (regular ASM). In fact I had 5 naked ASM beat 8 wyches with an agonizer in combat two consecutive rounds before the agonizer finally got them. They just managed to pass leadership tests until they got whittled down. Wyches are a very unimpressive combat unit, they aren't even concerning on the charge. Dark Eldar do not much up to Blood Angels in close combat. They advantage they have is an anti-tank firepower advantage. Hell with FnP from the priests even venoms are terrible against Blood Angels. The only real way I feel like DE can win is unit spamming at high point values and getting lucky with cover saves. Of course if that happens you'll end up losing.

[Dropsik]

My comments were based 100% off experience. The entire time I've heard how great wyches were, how they dominated everything in close combat. Our worst close combat unit is better than wyches (regular ASM). In fact I had 5 naked ASM beat 8 wyches with an agonizer in combat two consecutive rounds before the agonizer finally got them. They just managed to pass leadership tests until they got whittled down. Wyches are a very unimpressive combat unit, they aren't even concerning on the charge. Dark Eldar do not much up to Blood Angels in close combat. They advantage they have is an anti-tank firepower advantage. Hell with FnP from the priests even venoms are terrible against Blood Angels. The only real way I feel like DE can win is unit spamming at high point values and getting lucky with cover saves. Of course if that happens you'll end up losing.

 

+1

 

real problem with DE is that everything there is cheap and shoots a lot, and archon is just great. but all in all, they're hardly impressive.

 

cheers!