Guerilla Commando Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Recently I have been researching the Freemason's customs, culture and history etc. and I noticed that a lot of their philosophy could be used to support fluff on my own chapter whom I will name the Brotherhood of War. The Freemasons are all about brotherhood and looking out for one another, ignoring petty things such as religion and ethnicity, I think that the same morales about brotherhood could be applied to Space Marine doctrines. For a Chapter Symbol I will use the Compass and Square and names will derive from famous Masons over the centuries with a bit of Grimdark alterations to make them more fluffy. My grandfather was a Freemason and he still has his ceremonial uniform and the colours are primarily blue and grey which would look good for an armour scheme. Now I am only using the Freemason's for inspiration of the cosmetics of the Chapter, the combat doctrine would follow the Ultramarine's or the Imperial Fists. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 It's... Plausible... I guess... I mean... Each Chapter already has their own secretive rituals... Usually signifying your entrance into the "Brotherhood", from Scout to Marine... It may be scarring or cutting, some sworn oaths and sacred words, the revelation of a dark secret, whatever... Space Marine Chapters are supposed to have the "warrior-monk" feel... Super-human beings bound together by shared danger, united only to kill and die... I think basing a Chapter on something like the Freemasons, is going to be kinda flimsy... That and adding a very dark secret to the Chapter's past can become Really cheesy... "Little does anyone know, but the Sons of Awesome fought to defend Terra against a Waaaaagh! or orks that has been striken from the records...", or, "They've been conspiring with xenos and heretics for decades!",or, "They know the Emperor's middle name is Tim..."... Some things to think about... Space Marines already Have ritual, and brotherhood... How would Freemasonry add to the character of This Chapter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Similar efforts have been conducted here and here (alas, my own Freemason-inspired Chapter, the Fists of Purity, is no more :D ). Both of the linked threads provide some interesting thoughts on the subject. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerilla Commando Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 Ahh got it. I was originally just going to have the Masonic inspiration as purely cosmetic with colour and symbols, but I had an idea from reading one of the threads you posted Brother Tyler! Each company is called a Lodge and each company of approx. 100 men reside within their own ship (the chapter will be fleet based). And the Lodge is named after the current Captain. In terms of initiation I have yet to think of it, but the rankings will only have a single change which will be that the Chapter Master is called a Master of the Craft. The idea is a bit dry but it's a WIP, i'm doing the fluff as we speak. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Hats Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Read up on the Dark Angels. They're not outright Freemasons but they have their secret rites and rituals and their mysterious ulterior motives all of which are from the Freemason/Templar histories. You can make a chapter that better emphasis the whole freemason thing but the Dark Angels should be read up on (your BIY might make a good DA successor). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerilla Commando Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 BIY? I was thinking that since my Chapter were created to defend the Frontier Worlds (which answer to the Space Marines when the Imperium thinks they answer to them) that a contingency of Black Templars nearby on their ship were ordered to become the first chapter masters of the new chapter. So the descendants would be Black Templars who also use their Gene-seed, yay or nay ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Nay... The Black Templars peeling away from their parents to found anew Chapter is... Meh... Now... Being found using Imperial Fists geneseed and developing a thirst for crusader-like, assault tactics? That'd be probable. Also... Go with the Shriners... And give your Marines little red fezzes... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Nay... The Black Templars peeling away from their parents to found anew Chapter is... Meh... Now... Being found using Imperial Fists geneseed and developing a thirst for crusader-like, assault tactics? That'd be probable. Also... Go with the Shriners... And give your Marines little red fezzes... :D Black Templars ARE a crusader assault force based on Imperial Fists. Have the Chapter's gene-seed descend from the Black Templars, and by extension the Imperial Fists. G-Commando, I like your Freemason idea. They are dedicated to charitable work and would make for a well-loved Chapter among the common folk of the Imperium. They also work for moral uprightness, so perhaps you could take a Hellgate: London approach and have your Chapter committed to aiding the Inquisition in uprooting subversive cults and promoting different methods to combat Chaos? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Hats Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 BIY? Meant DIY. Sometimes my fingers move faster than my brain :) I plan to become a cyborg to fix that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Fell Hand Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think your idea fits a Mechanicum army much better, the same Brotherhood and secret society things apply, and an army of robots could easily pass for Space Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 @Snakeoil... In that case... Just make a Black Templars crusade... -.- a contingency of Black Templars nearby on their ship were ordered to become the first chapter masters of the new chapter. So the descendants would be Black Templars who also use their Gene-seed I took as something I've seen before... "A Black templars force gets stranded, and eventually mutates into it's own Chapter of Space Marines"... Which isn't how Chapters are founded, unfortunately enough... And if it was, just make Black Templars... "Well, I like Black Templars, but don't like Black Templars enough to actually Use them"... Sounds more like a abit of a cop-out than anything else... No... The Character of the Imperial Fists and their descendants is a stubborn belief in themselves and pride... It's This 'character' that makes a Chapter interesting... Not 'Oh Hai! We're sorta Templars! But we're Nicer Templars!'... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 @Snakeoil... In that case... Just make a Black Templars crusade... -.- I'm saying make a Chapter founded using Black Templar geneseed instead of taking it directly from the Imperial Fist source. The Chapter could inherit some of the Black Templar's righteous force and look nice and official. As a successor Chapter they can have close relation with their progenitors without having all their traits good or bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 See... I think there is enough distrust between the High Lords of Terra, and the huge numbers of righteously-zealotous Templars, that I don't think they'd be consulted, nor asked, to do such a thing... I'd generally leave the Blood Angels and Space Wolves out, due to mutation, and the Dark Angels and Black Templars out, just for being pissy and "untrustworthy"... >.> ... Because mistrust isn't conducive towards strong and healthy relationships amongst a starspanning government established on seperation, and careful regulation, of authority and power... However... I know of nothing that states that there aren't, definitively, any Black Templar successors... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2882997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 *sigh* Am I the only one, who reads and remembers the guides? You are not the [blank] Templars Many DIYers like to have the Black Templars be their training cadre (and gene-seed source). However, there are a number of both in-universe and out-of-universe problems with this. Why would the High Lords choose the Black Templars? They're headstrong, violate the Codex, and are completely outside Imperial control, even moreso than the usual Astartes independence. The High Lords would not trust them. Nor would they be a good choice for a training cadre, precisely because of their particular quirks – they'd pass them on to the new Chapter, which would provide the High Lords with another problem chapter. Added to this, there's the fact that most people seem to simply take the opportunity to recreate the Black Templars, thus raising the issue of why the exercise was undertaken in the first place. The Black Templars as a Chapter cadre raise far, far more problems than they solve. If you want a crusading Chapter, both the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists were such (the Imperial Fists still are). Both use the Emperor's Champion (indeed, even non-Dornian Chapters have been known to do so). You do not need the Black Templars to have similar influences. ~ Octaguide Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ioldanach Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 See, I just look at the guides as well-intentioned advice, but they are not rules. As the development of my Avenging Lions illustrates, there are reasonable ways to make things work even if the guides say not to do it. To counter what I just said, it takes a lot of work to make the concept of a Black Templars Successor work. It can be done, but requires a bit of creativity, research, and critical thinking. The background information tells us that the Ultramarines and their Successors are preferred by the High Lords of Terra when creating Codex Chapters, and it would appear that the majority of Chapters are intended to be Codex when they are created. However, there are enough openings there for a Black Templars Successor to exist. As the Sons of Medusa illustrate, new Chapters aren't created by breaking them off of old Chapters, with the 2nd Founding appearing to be the exception (and the Sons of Medusa, of course). As both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels codexes illustrate, the gene-seed of Chapters previously thought to be little-used can actually be used to create new Chapters. The key thing to notice there is that both of those Chapters had official background blurbs that would indicate that their gene-seed was rarely, if ever, used. We don't have any statement to that effect for the Black Templars (other than the interpretation and opinion of players, that is - GW has certainly never told us that the Black Templars' gene-seed can't be used). As the Steel Confessors and Exorcists illustrate, there are Chapters created in secret. There was a whole founding (the 13th) where the records of the Chapters are lost and the Chapters created at that time are unknown. While there might be some level of mistrust in regard to the Black Templars, I don't think there's sufficient mistrust on a scope and scale to support the assertion that the Black Templars aren't really trusted. We have one report from an Inquisitor (or an Inquisitor's acolyte) that would indicate the possibility of one person suspecting the Black Templars to be much larger in size than the Codex Astartes allows, but that report doesn't support mistrust across the entire range of High Lords or the Imperium. In fact, a critical analysis of that report illustrates how some Black Templars are counted twice, artificially (and incorrectly) inflated the numbers. You can bet that an Inquisitor will see that error right away. And then there's the 21st (Cursed) Founding in which all sorts of strange things happened, including mixing gene-seed, tampering with gene-seed, and allegedly the use of traitor gene-seed (maybe). If they'll do all of those things, I don't see any reason for the gene-seed of the Black Templars to be off-limits. Most importantly, even if there is some level of suspicion of the Black Templars now, we don't know when the seeds of that mistrust may have originally been sown. For all we know, the earliest foundings may have dipped into the well of all the 2nd Founding Chapters, including the Black Templars, with certain Chapters later being singled out and focused on as the High Lords of Terra refined their goals with the Adeptus Astartes. Going back to the Freemason-inspired Chapter concept, I don't think that the gene-seed really matters. You could just as easily use the gene-seed of the White Scars or Iron Hands. If you stick to the notion of taking elements of the Freemasons and sticking them onto Space Marines, what you would have would be a secretive warrior-cult with degrees of knowledge/secrets, ranks, and secret ceremonies. That sounds a lot like the Dark Angels, but is really applicable to many Chapters. If you look at the Freemasons and their symbols of work and charity, you might even apply the concept as a variation on the Salamanders and the Promethean Cult. You could alternately look at the focus of the Freemasons on death and rebirth as a symbol of personal transformation and enlightenment and then use the Blood Angels and their Sanguinary Cult, with Sanguinius replacing Hiram Abiff. (It's interesting that after reading this discussion last night, there were two specials about the Freemasons on TV ^_^ ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerilla Commando Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Honestly guys thanks for all your help, i've pasted this thread into word where i'm creating my chapter as we speak. I'll post them it up by the end of the week and i'll get a mini or two done soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 *sigh* Am I the only one, who reads and remembers the guides? Yes. Yes you are. But G-Commando, he does have a point. I'd almost say go for a Crimson Fist successor, but given their current fighting strength I can't imagine them being willing to hand over extra gene-seed. Imperial Fists are the safest bet. Believe me if you keep it safe and vague you won't tangle anyone's geek-panties. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerilla Commando Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 Well I have decided on Imperial Fists after reading the articles about them on here and learning how kick-ass they are. As for the Black Templar idea, I was only picking them on a random guess, I had no strong reasons for picking them and didn't want a crusade mad chapter, quite the opposite the Brotherhood defend newly settled and frontier worlds rather than invading others. And there shall be now tangling of panties haha... for today! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Well I have decided on Imperial Fists after reading the articles about them on here and learning how kick-ass they are. As for the Black Templar idea, I was only picking them on a random guess, I had no strong reasons for picking them and didn't want a crusade mad chapter, quite the opposite the Brotherhood defend newly settled and frontier worlds rather than invading others. And there shall be now tangling of panties haha... for today! Ah, fellow frontier sentinels, eh? My Star Shields are the same. Let the other Chapters run around the inner-Imperium, nice and safe and reinforced with mountains of Imperial Guard. Us Frontier Chapters know how to fight with nothing but rag-tag militias to gawk. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Most importantly, even if there is some level of suspicion of the Black Templars now, we don't know when the seeds of that mistrust may have originally been sown. Waaaaaay back when they were first created... Heavens... You have a galaxy torn apart by warfare, and you having... 6, I think, devastated Loyalist Legions still left over... With the threat of Another civil war looming between Those 3... It almost seemed like a "Pssssh, whatever" move that the Imperial Fists broke apart... With several thousands becoming Black Templars... So, you have a period of time in which billions were killed by rampaging armies of Astartes, destroying planets, and basically grinding everything that the Imperium was, into dust, to become the Imperium that is Now... I'd be Very worried about large numbers of super-human soldiers running around my Imperium... Especially a group with the size and logistics (ie. an overly large fleet of ships, men and material), running around in a semi-autonomous state (ie. You don't Tell the Space Marines they need to come... You Ask, and you Ask very,very politely, that they come...) I think that is why there is such a proliferation of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists... They are more "trustworthy", at least superficially, than someone else... I'd imagine the same to be true for the White Scars, too (Although you never really hear of their huge amount of successors)... The Dark Angels are sneaky gubbins, who keep to themselves, and do whatever it is that seems to please them... Sometimes at Really inopportune times... Everyone else has some mutational issues with their genes... And really, who wants a Chapter with a third eye growing out of their foreheads?...>.> ... O.K.... I Might want a Chapter like that but still... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 See, I just look at the guides as well-intentioned advice, but they are not rules. As the development of my Avenging Lions illustrates, there are reasonable ways to make things work even if the guides say not to do it. I know this is off topic but I have to reply to this. Reasonable for you, for record I don't think it was the reasonable at all, given the situation and conditions of AL founding. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Anyways... Look up some stuff on the Dark Angels, and their own rituals... The Fallen thing is... Take it or leave it, but the"ultra secretive" 'Inner Circle', and the various other circles of knowledge that are inside the Chapter, are pretty cool... Also... What did you have in mind that would draw so many Marines together into such away? ... >.> ... They are, in fact, Tau Marines, gallivanting around as Astartes!... O.o... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Waaaaaay back when they were first created... Heavens... You have a galaxy torn apart by warfare, and you having... 6, I think, devastated Loyalist Legions still left over... With the threat of Another civil war looming between Those 3... It almost seemed like a "Pssssh, whatever" move that the Imperial Fists broke apart... With several thousands becoming Black Templars... So, you have a period of time in which billions were killed by rampaging armies of Astartes, destroying planets, and basically grinding everything that the Imperium was, into dust, to become the Imperium that is Now... Just out of interest - Why on earth do you think that the Templars had more than 1000 marines when they were created? That would kind of go against the Imp Fists IA, which had the Crimson Fists and Black Templars be split off as new chapters (so acting in accordance with the reorganisation as laid down in the Codex), while the remainder of the Imp Fists (including all the marines who couldnt face not being Fists) went to the Iron Cage. Sigismund then ordered his chapter onto a permanent Crusade footing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaplainMathreyn Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I've never seen anything to rule against that... I can see the Ultramarines breaking apart into thousands of tinier Chapters... But that is mainly because their Primarch so severely created the Codex... That and... I couldn't see 1,000 men splitting off... Then becoming so entirely different to the 'norms' established By the Codex... It feels like it Started that way, and has Continued on that way... Unless Dorn said something to Sigismund to the effect of, "Look... 'Rob Girlyman' over there is going to Tell you, you Can't have more than this many men... I totally want you to grow and grow and grow just to spite him..." It's always felt like a"Screw you and your retarded book! We're going over Here!", and a fleet of Fists left the employ of the Imperial Fists... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeoilSage Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I've never seen anything to rule against that... I can see the Ultramarines breaking apart into thousands of tinier Chapters... But that is mainly because their Primarch so severely created the Codex... That and... I couldn't see 1,000 men splitting off... Then becoming so entirely different to the 'norms' established By the Codex... It feels like it Started that way, and has Continued on that way... Unless Dorn said something to Sigismund to the effect of, "Look... 'Rob Girlyman' over there is going to Tell you, you Can't have more than this many men... I totally want you to grow and grow and grow just to spite him..." It's always felt like a"Screw you and your retarded book! We're going over Here!", and a fleet of Fists left the employ of the Imperial Fists... I thought that after the Horus Heresy, Rogal Dorn was so ashamed of being unable to save the Emperor that he and his Chapter were conflicted; some wanted to follow Roboute Guilliman's Codex as a means of stabilizing the Imperium, while some wanted righteous vengeance against those who had brought the Imperium to its knees. Dorn himself was torn between his duty and pride. The Iron Cage more or less settled the matter. The Legion purified itself in the flames of battle and the survivors finally agreed to form Chapters. The Black Templars were made up of those who wanted justice over all else, begining the endless crusade, and over time they have deliberately grown their numbers beyond the 1000 strong force, though only the Templar's highest echelons know how many there actually are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238922-freemason-inspired-marines/#findComment-2883724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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