Pedro Kantor Armies

[ak-73]

Pedro Kantor - how does he work?

 

Or more specifically: what do you think how his presence influences the overall philosophy of a Space Marine army? His Inspiring Presence obviously makes the core of your army want to stick together but that isn't always feasible. Stubborn makes you want to avoid most combats even harder while Kantor Sternguards have their own impact on the battlefield with a Grey Hunter-like A3.

 

So what's the big picture? Try to rush forward and occupy midfield with Rhino Sternguards inside a Pedro bubble? Stay at distance and play the shooting game in order to force enemy to come to you and have your A3 Sternguards potentially matter then? (Some enemy units will find it hard to deal with Pedroguards either at range or close up, again similar to Grey Hunters only much more expensive.)

 

Or completely disregard the Kantor special rules and try to play your army as usual?

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts, Battle-Brothers.

 

Alex

[Something Wycked]

Pedro's presence causes him to be the focal point of my force. Where the fighting is, that is where Pedro needs to be; not necessarily in the assault himself, but at least in range of it. He will always be attached to a unit of Sternguard and they will almost always be sitting in cover near midfield. Because I want to bring the maximum 3 Sternguard units, that means my Troops are now Scouts for cost purposes; because they can infiltrate, I will often transport my Sternguard in Drop Pods to immediately reach midfield and support/be supported by the Scouts nearby. If an enemy gets too close, I can feed them a unit of Scouts to keep them in the open for a turn of Sternguard firing, which will likely kill anything but a full unit of Terminators. Add a dash of long range firepower in the form of Thunderfire and/or Predators, and add some fast melta and the force is good to go.

[ak-73]

If you occupy midfield early... don't you bring your Sternguards closer to (multiple) enemy units? And against some armies you need to stay back (Orks, for example). I wonder if it's better to run a Kantor list aggressively or defensively.

 

Alex

[Something Wycked]

You're right, you do get closer to the enemy army, but it fully depends on the opponent ;) I can engage just as much of his army as he can of mine, and it happens on my terms during the first time.

 

E.G.: on the first turn, he can shoot at my Scouts, and if he has long enough range he can shoot at my other fire support. When its my turn, 2 of the Sternguard come down and engage appropriate targets (I often equip them with 2 c-flamers and 2 c-meltas) and they receive supporting fire from the Scouts and other elements of the army. A couple combi-flamers and hellfire rounds do a great job on mobs of boys, as do Thunderfires and dakka Preds.

[ak-73]

How does one Strike the balance between keeping one's infantry together (due to Kantor) bubble and dispersing to get multiple angles of shooting though? I suppose Kantor really lends itself to refused flank set-ups... How do Sternguards impact the battlefield? First of all, less Tacticals and therefore fewer but more expensive troops. Unless you go 1st and 10th company (which is very fluffy). Maeks the army more vulnerable to glass hammer and alpha strike armies.

 

Alex

[Something Wycked]

That is ultimately a question for each game and each player to answer. I can't really give you a great answer because I don't know the terrain we're playing on, nor am I familiar with how the opponent plays (my own local Orks player is shooty, not assaulty). General guidelines are keeping your units close enough to support each other via shooting or assaulting while maintaining cover for each. Rhinos can be very handy in this respect as mobile cover, filling the gaps between the table's terrain, allowing your Sternguard line of sight to a target while denying line of sight to the Sternguard unit from the opponent's dangerous weapons.

 

Refused flanks can be golden for smaller armies. Take advantage of your smaller force's greater strength at the schwerpunkt and eliminate the portion of the opponent's army that you've chosen to clash against before turning to engage the remnants.

 

Sternguards impact the battlefield by being both a hammer and an anvil. They can arrive via Rhino or Drop Pod and kill almost any full unit with a round of shooting- in this they are the hammer. Due to this great shooting ability, they can also be an anvil by denying an area to the opponent or risk suffering through their shooting- or even an assault made all the more painful by Kantor's bubble. As you noted, there will be a much smaller model count when you "replace" your Tacticals with Sternguard; it therefore plays similarly to Grey Knights in that respect. Cover is even more important for this force than other Astartes armies if the opponent's force wants to assault or has AP2/3 weapons.

[Ming]

See my blog here at Bolter and Chainsword for everything on Kantor as the centerpiece for your list building, tactics that work, etc.

 

Kantor's Kastle is a viable tactic in most scenarios where you need a close-combat buff. Every inspired unit getrs a 25% to 100% increase in cc attacks, which is huge. Being stubborn all over the table is a good benefit, and sternguard as troops is a great buff.

 

Your free gift:

 

Do a Kantor List to emulate a first Company force from the Codex Space Marines:

 

Kantor

20 sternguard

10 assault terminators

30 vanguard

5 scouts

5 scouts

lots of accessories...

 

Kantor can unlock some previously "unheard of" builds....

[ak-73]

The above build should also field a 10 man Honor Guard squad. Anyway, can you summarize some of your lessons learned here? Personally I see Stubborn more as a drawback because of losing combat tactics.

 

Alex

[Ming]

OK - I'll be brief:

 

1. Kantor unlocks sternguard as scoring. Also makes your army stubborn. Gives you a orbital bombardment. All units within 12" trange are inspired. All this for about the price of a captain.

 

2. Kantor is armed with a power fist and assault 4-special bolter. 3+/4++ armor. Lesson learned - he is NOT a close combat monster. He is best used starting the game in a rhino with firepoint so he can use the bolter OR bombardment and still be protected. His job ist to inspire others to fight better in close combat - a passive leadership role for sure. Kantor needs to live through the engagement. This may mean that a sternguard squad of 5 or 9 would be his typical bodyguard. However - the sternguard would exit the vehicle at some point. Special bonus - range is to Kantor's ride while embarked, giving a larger inspiration bubble. NOTE - he can be in a Landraider for the same effect. If points allow, extra amor on kantor's Rhino may be important to keep it mobile.

 

3. Sternguard with Kantor as the HQ are scoring. Note that a 5-man sternguard squad has the same base number of close combat attacks as a tactical squad (10+). The sternguard can be buffed to have more shooting strength such as through meltaguns or combis - anything you take as a buff should be taken in multiples to make sure they are effective. Sternguard should be in vehicles with fire points (rhinos) or razorbacks. The sergeant should have a lightning claw instead of a power weapon - same price, but deadlier and means you keep the bolter or combi weapon on the sergeant.

 

4. Early Game Kantor's Kastle. A Kantor list build can benefit from a turn 1-2-3 Kastle built around Kantor. The purpose is to give you additional CC attacks if charged - due to the inspiration. The Kastle uses sternguard and tactical squads as the walls - Have a killer or sweeper unit within the kastle (such as assault terminators) for counterassault purposes. The Kastle maintains its center of gravity until the moment at which it needs to split apart in order to grab objectives. Fast attack units are not typically part of the Kastle - as they act as diversions or flanking units to the outside. The goal is to force your opponent to attack the Kastle (deliberately spelled with a K) head on -where your sternguard and counterassault units will shine. All of this is done with a refused flank or central deployment, depending on opponent, mission, and terrain.

 

5. A librarian is a good benefit to the Kastle. The value of that benefit depends on the spells and buffs. The librarian's job, like Kantor, is to last as long as possible for late game advantage.

 

6. Mid to late gave, units may have to peel out of the inspiration bubble (Kastle), or Kantor may have to be moved closer to any side under attack, to make sure units remain inspired. Have had games where Kantor remained with one group (mid game assault on an objective or kill point cluster) and later had to move to another group to inspire them as well. One key for a successful Kantor list is to always have a late game plan (unit or other) that will have the mobility to get the objective under your control or contested.

 

7. Orbital bombardment - use it turn 1 if enemy units are clustered, otherwise, use it when the best opportunity arises. It is a coin toss on effectiveness. Just like a vindicator shell, it NEVER can be expected to land right where you want it most. Its like giving your opponent a free punch to his face....or a swing and a miss.

 

8. Stubborn has great value - all the games I play locally have aggressive opponents who know how to get you quickly in assault. If you were not inspired you might have the choice to break and fall back during the opponents turn. I find in alot of games its a great time to see a unit be walked off the table. Being stubborn means you cannot voluntarily break, nor do you have penalties for losing an assault. As marines, this benefit may outvalue the negative. Especially since the tactic is to get the opponent to assault you while you are inspired.

 

All for now...

[ak-73]

A few thoughts...

 

1. I avoid close combat weapons on Sternguard; my goal is to not be in combat and if that can't be avoided, a unit will have to sacrifice itself so that the others may live. Preferably a cheap unit.

 

2. Kastling is an obvious strategy and has its own considerations (fire lanes, who is at the center with Kantor, etc). If you are castling regularly (or just playing backfield), I think Sternguard units should have one of Lascannon/Missile Launcher/Multi-Melta each.

 

3. I think Typhoons are an interesting pick for Kantor lists because they allow to field mobile long-range firepower. LR Phobos are too expensive, Predators are mostly static. Riflemen dreads are an alternative.

 

4. While Kantor can be IDed, not all enemy troops have such attacks among their ranks. Also sometimes you need to commit valuable ressources at a critical point in battle. So late game it can make sense to commit Kantor, especially against fragile enemy troops.

 

5. I would like to be able to fall back. Sure, you might get escorted off the board. But you probably still have loads of Sternguards with Hellfire, melta, plasma, whatever. An enemy unit not hiding in melee is running the risk of getting rapid fired/melta'd to hell. Stubborn is only useful if you are camping at backfield in an Annihilation game to avoid running off the map once enemy troops come in.

 

 

So... how do you run games where you have to push forward because the enemy has better long-range fire (IG, Tau, possibly Eldar) or because the enemy objective is across the table?

 

Alex

[ShinyRhino]

So... how do you run games where you have to push forward because the enemy has better long-range fire (IG, Tau, possibly Eldar) or because the enemy objective is across the table?

 

Alex

 

I'll tell you a little secret...he doesn't! (just a ribbing at Ming, we play at the same shop and routinely fight each other to a standstill).

 

Your concern is the big one for a Kantor list. Pushing forward is the hard part for a list like that, because it's defensive by nature. Kantor is one of those SCs they nailed dead-on for fluff. Crimson Fists are the rock-amid-the-surge chapter, holding the line at all costs. Problem is, the game has evolved past that playstyle.

An army packed with Sternguard and Hammernators in armored transports defends beautifully, because the massed Sternguard ammo makes it hard to approach, and the Hammernators are a solid charge deterrent to survivors that make your line. But when moving forward, the Sternguard have to button up inside their APCs, which loses a LOT of firepower. Sure, you can hang them back and send the Land Raider and hammernators in to crack some skulls, but they go in totally unsupported, or in half-measures, and get eaten alive on the way in. Most players will trade a cheap melta unit to splatter the Land Raider and expose the TDA to massed shots anyday.

 

Ming wrote some interesting articles on his blog here on the B&C about how the Kastle list lends itself to a "play for the draw, pray for the win" mentality. They're worth a read.

[ak-73]

Why not run them forward similar to Space Wolves? If you need to capture/deny objectives all over the battlefield it's difficult but if there is a cluster of objectives, going about it Space Wolves style seems applicable.

 

Alex

[Ming]

Shiny Shiny Shiny. Tsk Tsk. Play for the draw and hope for a win? Hope MUST be winning cause I win more than I draw!!! LOL!!!

 

Actually in a "larger game" having Kantor in a landraider and a librarian in another landraider has been great for moving forward. The Kastle is very mobile that way. You can keep the kastle moving and going forward, and its alot of fun doing so. Improved mobile tactics moved my 2010-2011 gaming year from a losing year to a better year.

 

Regardless, unless you want a biker army, Kantor can replace any generic captain and provide a better punch. As a character his only real flaw is being locked at I-1 in assault. But again, that's not his job, and it took a while to really understand that.

 

You need to take and hold the table center? Check. Won alot of games with that.

 

You want to take on other shooty armies like Tau? Check. A Kantor list is is good for that, but not because of Kantor - but because all of the other units are designed for long-to mid range firepower with the option to assualt.

 

You want to do capture and control? Kantor is not your problem...he will make sure you keep that home objective with a third of your army; your list needs to have the ability to get the other 2-thirds across the table!

 

The only complaint I have (and likely the source of numerous losses) is that Kantor does not convey preferred enemy - ORKS! LOL......you'd think in the fluff they would have given the crimson fist master some kind of buff for taking on hordes....nope....It was horde orks that led me to using Kantor anyways! (still lost vs them, just not tabled - and it was not without trying everything else you could bring as a codex marine!)

 

On AK - 73's other comments...I don't know what your local gaming scene is like, but we hang with some real tough players. It is clearly an arms race around here, and alot of time is devoted to the game to develop and practise great tactics. One cool part about Kantor - is that it makes me locally unique. For all the other players I've met and fought, I've never played vs another Kantor list in over 8 years of gaming at my current haunt. Heck there are few web sites devoted to Kantor-focused armies (some, but few). There is nothing like some SW or BA player jumping right on you turn 2 only to find that the Kantor-Libby combo wrecks them badly in counterassault. And yes, we need some power weapons. Except for fighting Tau, I've ended up being assaulted in every game - even vs Shiny's blue bikes (I do close with tau and assault them when I can). I end up buying 4 power fists or power weapons every list - not a bad investment (60 to 80 points), which could get another landspeeder or a cheap dakka pred or attack bike. The power weapons are a sure fire way to get wounds on space marine equivalents.

 

Overall, as Shiny alluded to, Kantor requires a certain strategic or tactical play style - let the enemy break itself on you, then you go out and finish the mission.

 

I have to confess (I think its on my blog from September or so) played a great game w/o Kantor at 1850-ish points. I used a Captain (I5, S6, 2+/4++) and command squad (PW, CC, Apoth, 2xPG) and a dreadnaught instead (have rarely used dreads since I use up elite spots with assault termies and sternguard) - No Kantor, no sternguard. I have to admit is was fun to have 6 marines in a rhino running around in the backfield assaulting small enemy marine units and wiping them out. But...that game was one of this year's draws.....while my Captain was out running down SMUs and to contest objectives, the enemy Blood Angel units were wrecking my hapless tactical squads on my right flank and speeding on to captured objectives, while my left flank tried to lend fire support. The combination of the captain and the fire support brought the game back to balance in extra innings (turn 7). It was very interesting to see the impact of SMU FC/FNP/Chaplain assisted BAs vs SM tacticals. Having extra CC attacks might have helped on my part, but again, maybe not. Fun, but not fun enough to make me want to change the primary leader of Third Company!

 

Good luck with your own decision making and leadership choices!

[ak-73]

Regardless, unless you want a biker army, Kantor can replace any generic captain and provide a better punch. As a character his only real flaw is being locked at I-1 in assault. But again, that's not his job, and it took a while to really understand that.

 

He isn't. He's got a bolt pistol and can attack at I 5. But do you want that?

 

The only complaint I have (and likely the source of numerous losses) is that Kantor does not convey preferred enemy - ORKS! LOL......you'd think in the fluff they would have given the crimson fist master some kind of buff for taking on hordes....nope....It was horde orks that led me to using Kantor anyways! (still lost vs them, just not tabled - and it was not without trying everything else you could bring as a codex marine!)

 

He does that indirectly through Inspiring Presence which hurts Orks the most. Which Ork Boyz squad wants to take 8 bolt pistols, 2 flamer attacks (combi-flamer!) to the face and then get charged with 31 S4 I4 attacks? Well, all Ork Boyz squads of course but that's only because they are Orks. Most Ork players don't like that, especially if their squad has taken some casualties already.

 

Not to mention that if you play fluffy, you have a 5 man Dev squad with 4 HBs. Orks hate those too. Kantor allows for some builds that can be very, very nasty to orks. (Green Tide is generally not seen as competitive except at low point battles.) Has anyone ever played the Rynn's World campaign?

 

Alex

[Ming]

He isn't. He's got a bolt pistol and can attack at I 5. But do you want that?

 

Actually the BRB seems to indicate that any IC with a special weapon (in this case a power fist) has to use that in cc, so he seems to be locked at I1. Kantor seems to maybe be a grey area...he has no pistol but he has Dorn's Arrow - the A4 bolter. Compared to Calgar - whi has a power sword and double fists - and can go at power sword initiative or power fist initiative.

 

Your other ideas are great thinking for taking on orks.

[ak-73]

I could have sworn that last time I looked he had a bolt pistol. Probably looked at another SCM's profile without realizing. Btw, Dorn's Arrow is also great at mowing down Orks.

 

Alex

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So... how do you run games where you have to push forward because the enemy has better long-range fire (IG, Tau, possibly Eldar) or because the enemy objective is across the table?

 

Alex

 

I'll tell you a little secret...he doesn't! (just a ribbing at Ming, we play at the same shop and routinely fight each other to a standstill).

 

Your concern is the big one for a Kantor list. Pushing forward is the hard part for a list like that, because it's defensive by nature. Kantor is one of those SCs they nailed dead-on for fluff. Crimson Fists are the rock-amid-the-surge chapter, holding the line at all costs. Problem is, the game has evolved past that playstyle.

An army packed with Sternguard and Hammernators in armored transports defends beautifully, because the massed Sternguard ammo makes it hard to approach, and the Hammernators are a solid charge deterrent to survivors that make your line. But when moving forward, the Sternguard have to button up inside their APCs, which loses a LOT of firepower. Sure, you can hang them back and send the Land Raider and hammernators in to crack some skulls, but they go in totally unsupported, or in half-measures, and get eaten alive on the way in. Most players will trade a cheap melta unit to splatter the Land Raider and expose the TDA to massed shots anyday.

 

Ming wrote some interesting articles on his blog here on the B&C about how the Kastle list lends itself to a "play for the draw, pray for the win" mentality. They're worth a read.

 

Marines actually play much like Tau.

 

Tau are a Movey and Shooty list, who don't go an terrorise the enemy DZone & Objectives in person, especially not by T3. Generally speaking.

 

Tau, even with their aged Codex can make a fist of it. This is how:

1] Shoot the daylights out of the enemy.

2] Move backwards and repeat '1'

etc.

 

Then when the game gets close to the end, if things have gone to plan, the Tau are very much in control of their Objective. By T4, Devilfish*, Piranhas** and Suits*** look to dash forwards to contest the enemy Objective. This gives the Tau a win.

 

You don't have to pwn your opponent's Objective. Just contest.

 

Marine Equivalent:

* Rhino chassis

** Speeder

*** Jumpers and Bikes

 

Also, Predators and Typhoons are a natural backfield pair. The turret of the Pred actually gives cover to the Speeder, should the opponent's guns be in range. Better than nothing. Then the Speeder can flat out later in the game for the contest.

[ak-73]

Let's discuss Stubborn then. I think it's pretty bad. Vanillas are a shooty codex because they suck hard in melee. Kantor improves on that but it's still not their home zone because Kantor will make you lean towards Sternguards aka even shootier marines. Stubborn keeps you from falling back and shooting more. Stubborn locks your shooty units in melee. It's a trap. So should this rule be cause to make you rely on Power Fists (which would be a fluffy choice btw) to help you resolve combat quicker? Probably not but then all you can do is increase your dakka and stay mobile to keep out of melee. Gate of Infinity can help (among others because I am cxnvinced you can use it while stuck in melee). But that's 2 HQ choices and so again expensive.

 

So what stubborn is good for is to stay backfield or fall back to your table edge. Because once the remnants of the enemy reach you in melee, Stubborn helps you to not run from the table. And it helps you contest objectives of course, requiring the enemy to eliminate you to the last man quite likely. Unfortunately 5-7 man Sternguard squads aren't that hard to eliminate.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Alex

[Ming]

To be stubborn or not to be?

 

Stubborn was thrown in as the negative to the inspirational positive that Kantor provides.

 

Frankly moving back to "not get charged" - allowed under the general combat tactics - can be situational and more of a curse.

 

In one example, say a 5 man sternguard squad, 12 inches into the tanble, gets shot up and loses 2 models. The player decides to fall back at the end of the opponents shooting phase, rolls 2D6 and gets a 7. The models move outside of the charge range, but 7 inches closer to the table edge. On the player's next turn, he automatically rallies and can take up to 3 inches of reconsolidation and then 6 inches of movement. Then his 3 survivors rapid fire the nearest enemy unit...you can complete that sentence on your own.

 

In another example, those same 3 survivors again choose to fall back and roll a 7 again for their initial fall back move. The opponent decides to charge a closer enemy unit, win the charge, and then reconsolidate after combat to within 6 inches of the sternguard. At the beginning of the next turn, the sternguard have to fall back again, and roll a 6...oops, they run off the table before the shooting phase.

 

I think we all have seen small (and even large) units break and run off the table. Overall, the mechanic goes back to 5th edition, when marines could fall back, and getting into cover or behind LOS could get you to rally. Back then the ability of marines to rally and get back in the fight was awesome.

 

In 6th edition, you can class the game strategy (not tactics) as either shoot em' or assault em' (or a mix of both). IG is classically shoot em'. The three newest codexi are all about assault. An assault style player with great tactics will work to have deep reach into your lines, so that any unit that breaks will just keep falling back.

 

Overall, it is this premise that makes stubborn valuable. I know I'm going to be assauulted, and I want to stay in the fight. Even if it means I'll lose the unit (eventually), it is the tactic of tying down the assaulter that makes it valuable. Sure, assault my tactical squad....my assault terminators will be over there in a minute.

 

Overall, stubborn only is a terrible feature in the condition where the opponent is I5 or better every assault phase (say, dark eldar or some demons), or where your I4 S4 models cannot damage the opponent (like vs dreadnaughts or Kans).

 

Being stubborn also bridges the grey area between "normal" and "fearless". A "normal" unit loses assault, and has a greater chance of breaking (assault resolution modifiers). If it fails morale, it then can be forced to roll off to see if it is "swept"...if it loses that roll as a marine, rather than being swept, a certain penalty of additional saves is taken. If a fearless unit loses cobat and is swept, it goes immediately to taking addtional saves. If a stubborn unit loses combat, it is harder to fail the morale check to begin with. On a stubborn unit passing its morale, no further saves are made, it is just stuck in combat.

 

Hopefully this is clear. In my local meta, it is probably better to be stubborn because (1) local player skill and tactics will override any benefit of falling back in the shootiing phase; or (2) when you do get assaulted, your smaller marine units would live longer with the benefit being stubborn - chances are you will last longer.

[ShinyRhino]

Stubborn stinks only when Kantor has died.

His +1A buff actually makes Stubborn useful. You might lose Marines, but each one you have remaining has extra punches to drop the enemy.

Take a 5-man Sternguard squad (either whole or as a remnant of a shot-up unit). That's 10 attacks base. Nothing too much to flinch at. Pump that up to 15 and you're pulling even with the charge from another non-Hammernator MEQ unit. Should the squad not be wiped out, you're rolling on standard Marine Leadership. That squad is still kicking, and still getting an extra attack per man.

 

Want real fun? Put Pedro in a box with a small Honour Guard squad that contains a Chapter banner. That's +2 attacks per man, +3 on the charge. For anything but the fastest dedicated assault units, that's a huge pile of ceramite fists and bolter butts to suffer through, even before you factor in the power weapon or powerfist hiding in the mass.

 

Now, Stubborn DOES stink when granted by Lysander. Lysander might be tough as nails, but he doesn't give a proximity buff or anything fun like that. He can't get a Chapter Banner. The one buff he does give is for increased shooting, so that runs counter to the point of his being Stubborn. It feels like they just said "Eh, let's give all the Sons of Dorn the Stubborn USR."

[darrkespur]

Stubborn stinks only when Kantor has died.

His +1A buff actually makes Stubborn useful. You might lose Marines, but each one you have remaining has extra punches to drop the enemy.

Take a 5-man Sternguard squad (either whole or as a remnant of a shot-up unit). That's 10 attacks base. Nothing too much to flinch at. Pump that up to 15 and you're pulling even with the charge from another non-Hammernator MEQ unit. Should the squad not be wiped out, you're rolling on standard Marine Leadership. That squad is still kicking, and still getting an extra attack per man.

 

Want real fun? Put Pedro in a box with a small Honour Guard squad that contains a Chapter banner. That's +2 attacks per man, +3 on the charge. For anything but the fastest dedicated assault units, that's a huge pile of ceramite fists and bolter butts to suffer through, even before you factor in the power weapon or powerfist hiding in the mass.

 

Now, Stubborn DOES stink when granted by Lysander. Lysander might be tough as nails, but he doesn't give a proximity buff or anything fun like that. He can't get a Chapter Banner. The one buff he does give is for increased shooting, so that runs counter to the point of his being Stubborn. It feels like they just said "Eh, let's give all the Sons of Dorn the Stubborn USR."

 

Nope. The Chapter Banner does not stack with Pedro's Inspiring Presence, it says so in the codex. But I do still run Pedro with 4-5 Honour Guard in an assault cannon razorback, with two sternguard squads in assault cannon razorbacks (and a librarian sometimes) backing them up. It's great fun.

[ShinyRhino]

Stubborn stinks only when Kantor has died.

His +1A buff actually makes Stubborn useful. You might lose Marines, but each one you have remaining has extra punches to drop the enemy.

Take a 5-man Sternguard squad (either whole or as a remnant of a shot-up unit). That's 10 attacks base. Nothing too much to flinch at. Pump that up to 15 and you're pulling even with the charge from another non-Hammernator MEQ unit. Should the squad not be wiped out, you're rolling on standard Marine Leadership. That squad is still kicking, and still getting an extra attack per man.

 

Want real fun? Put Pedro in a box with a small Honour Guard squad that contains a Chapter banner. That's +2 attacks per man, +3 on the charge. For anything but the fastest dedicated assault units, that's a huge pile of ceramite fists and bolter butts to suffer through, even before you factor in the power weapon or powerfist hiding in the mass.

 

Now, Stubborn DOES stink when granted by Lysander. Lysander might be tough as nails, but he doesn't give a proximity buff or anything fun like that. He can't get a Chapter Banner. The one buff he does give is for increased shooting, so that runs counter to the point of his being Stubborn. It feels like they just said "Eh, let's give all the Sons of Dorn the Stubborn USR."

 

Nope. The Chapter Banner does not stack with Pedro's Inspiring Presence, it says so in the codex. But I do still run Pedro with 4-5 Honour Guard in an assault cannon razorback, with two sternguard squads in assault cannon razorbacks (and a librarian sometimes) backing them up. It's great fun.

 

Bummer. Shows you how often I read that page in the Codex :).

[Ming]

[bummer. Shows you how often I read that page in the Codex . ]

 

Yep. You have to try to stop skipping that page!

 

[Now, Stubborn DOES stink when granted by Lysander. Lysander might be tough as nails, but he doesn't give a proximity buff or anything fun like that. He can't get a Chapter Banner. The one buff he does give is for increased shooting, so that runs counter to the point of his being Stubborn. It feels like they just said "Eh, let's give all the Sons of Dorn the Stubborn USR."]

 

Agreed on this...Lysander should have made terminators scoring...bet it was there in the codex playtest draft and deleted later before it went final...Lysander still could be awesome with a tactical terminator based list. I hate it when terminators break and either run or have to take " we ain't running" saves.

 

Having a stubborn IC is fine with me....I'm stubborn, and I'm sticking to it.

[Yotakka]

I personaly run pedro in an army with 2 tac squads and 2 sternguard squads and play for local superiority. when combo'd with some deep striking or fast distraction units this works amazingly well. i'll usualy have 2 vindicators as an av 13 shield for the 4 rhinos carrying the tacs and SG. add a dash of podding dreads and devs that camp in a different area. Your opponent has to choose wether to chase your devs and let the scoring units go or to after your scoring units and get shot by every gun in the army... kinda a damned if u do, damned if you dont situation